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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 10, 2019 2:52:16 GMT
"There has to be a way of getting everybody back!" (Sara nonchalantly slips the keys to her time machine back into her pocket) 'Yeah, what can you do?' Oh, yeah, shit, I kind of overlooked the fact that Diggle was even part of the fight int he last installment, which I feel shitty about not realizing such an important main character wasn't present, but God damn, that suck even more that he wasn't there when Oliver died. And they still haven't told him?? Come on. They were all together on Lian Yu when Mia and Oliver randomly disappeared, but hey, act casual, like it's no big deal. A ) Why the fuck would Ray object to using the Waverider? Like, at all, much less when the stakes are the this high and you're already a man down and a few billion people just died? B ) Stop acknowledging that you're doing a crossover. It might have been funny once (maybe), but now it's just weird. C) Why would you promise your crew they wouldn't team up with other fucking heroes in the time of need? You're saying to be cute and meta and Caity Lotz doesn't need to do anything special to be cute and the meta thing undermines the urgency of the story. Obviously the real reason is, you just don't want to bring on these extra characters and try to fit them into what's already a massive clusterfuck... I mean undertaking; and I get that, though it's also kind of shitty for some of these characters/actors to so blatantly fall shy of making the cut. But at the same time, I think some share of the blame falls to the show runners of Legends of Tomorrow for putting the bar so low, that the vast majority of their heroes just aren't worth having around when everyone wants to break out all the good times to play together. Everyone's playing with GI Joe and Barbie and you've got cast predominantly made up of dollar store Action Guy figurines. They can't even claim much in the way of Sara and Ray, since they originated on Arrow back when that show was good. The only reason I can figure they don't bring Mick on is because they've made him even more 2-dimensional than he was when the show started... The least they could do is give them a mission off screen or something; like they're guarding.... Um... well... I was going to saying guarding the tower on Earth-1, but considering who we're talking about, that seems like that'd be irresponsible. But they could be guarding the donuts for the people who are guarding the tower.....or something. Hell, have them come aboard the Waverider expecting to find the others only to discover they're all missing. Why? Fuck all knows? Because "Crisis" - the Anti-Monitor whisked them away so they couldn't use the time machine to stop them or some other thing that gets resolved when everything else gets settled... Augh.... a fucking time machine, with all sorts of fucking advanced technology....and it's Ray's God damn lab they need? And, oh, they don't really need the Waverider, just any old Waverider will do. So why the fuck were you fucking around with asking? Just to spell out why the other "legends" aren't appearing? Because as an excuse goes, it would have been better to just not mention it. Ah, well, at least they're not screwing over Mick, but if you're going to use an alternate version of him, why not actually use the full potential and show an alternate version of Mick? "You have all lost a great hero." "Yeah, the wrong hero." "I do not disagree.... I was really hoping it'd be Felicity..." Oh, for fuck sake, of course that's why Lois and baby Jonathan are there for this briefing.... and of course it's Mick, the last person anyone should arguably pass a child to, who manages to settle him down.... Oh, gee, the Monitor could go back into the time stream to retrieve the Book of Destiny intact before it was destroyed. So he's going to do the same thing for Oliver, right? No. Alrighty. "Can [the book] bring Oliver back?" "I wish it could, but as the Anti-Monitor grows stronger, I grow weaker." That's not a fucking answer the question. For fuck sake, you're going to have the fucking Book of Destiny onboard and have keep it someplace secure? It's dangerous in the hands of reasonable people. How fucking dumb does the Monitor have to be to not only give Lex fucking Luthor free roam of the ship, but to do so and not better protect one of the most important items in the multiverse? Oh, but "that's the plan" so it's okay.... By all means, Sara, don't bother telling Mia about how you lost your dad and didn't try bringing him back; or try any harder than necessary to drive home the struggles you had being revived by the pit.... Batman
Damn... that voice. Fucking writers. It figures they'd do something as misleading as a shot of Lois cradling a dead Superman, only to make it an alternate Superman and Lois, who looks like the Arrowverse Superman and Lois - even though they're going to be the only ones who do - just to be able use that shot for promos... Wait, are they saying that the Lex of Earth-38 - the Arrowverse's Lex Luthor - doesn't actually fucking know that Clark Kent is fucking Superman? But he knows that Kara Danvers is Supergirl.... Fuck you. Also, why the hell does he think Clark fucking Kent from his earth is hopping around universes? So that's the future of Smallvilles Superman/Clark Kent? Ten fucking seasons of build up to him becoming Superman and he's given it up in 8 years? ....Yeah, that sounds about right.... Also explains why they wouldn't bother enlisting the help of an extra Superman. (Sigh)....and of course they had to go and ruin Kevin Conroy's turn as Batman...... Guess they had to find a way to have their novelty without actually keeping him around. GOD DAMN, Brandon Routh as Superman looks FUCKING AWESOMESorry, Tyler, but can we have Brandon be the Superman in the spin-off? Please?I would pay good money if Constantine and Barry come back hauling Oliver around as if it were "Weekend at Bernie's" Jesus tap dancing Christ, because of course they took out Bat-Conroy with the least amount of fucking effort.... So wait, why the fuck did Lex "need" to take the Book of Destiny and go on a Superman-killing spree? How did that work to suit the Monitor's grand plan? Was there too much help from across the multiverse that a little herd thinning was necessary? Also, way to beat a joke to death with Mick hold Jonathan. I stand corrected, apparently Mick did draw the short straw if this is what he gets for showing up to the crossover; the other "legends" may have lucked out. Alright, I give up. "Fuck you" isn't going to cut and I can't think of anything stronger to say to these writers. Of course Kate is going to to turn out to be the "Paragon of Courage" because why have it turn out they had all but one of the fucking paragons all along; and they wasted an entire quest looking for someone else? It's like the God damn Wizard of Oz; she's had the fucking courage all this time and just didn't realize it. So Kate's been active for about two months and Kara mentions how Kate saved Barry and Oliver's ass last year without so much as either of them batting an eye, so to speak; and I'm entirely out of fucks to give at this point. "I wish I knew [Beth] like this." "Maybe you still can." Nope. Not Kate's Beth. No. No. No.
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SportsFan19
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Post by SportsFan19 on Dec 10, 2019 5:39:32 GMT
So that's the future of Smallvilles Superman/Clark Kent? Ten fucking seasons of build up to him becoming Superman and he's given it up in 8 years? ....Yeah, that sounds about right.... Also explains why they wouldn't bother enlisting the help of an extra Superman. I'm pretty sure the only thing Welling is capable of doing is disappointing me.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 10, 2019 5:51:23 GMT
So that's the future of Smallvilles Superman/Clark Kent? Ten fucking seasons of build up to him becoming Superman and he's given it up in 8 years? ....Yeah, that sounds about right.... Also explains why they wouldn't bother enlisting the help of an extra Superman. I'm pretty sure the only thing Welling is capable of doing is disappointing me. I mean it makes sense, in a way; it's arguably the ultimate fate for Tom Welling's Clark Kent - Welling himself balked at ever putting on the suit, so it's fitting his character would be willing to walk away from it. And here I thought Smallville finished letting me down nearly a decade ago.... Touché.
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SportsFan19
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Post by SportsFan19 on Dec 10, 2019 6:19:36 GMT
What's the word on Justin Hartley appearing as Green Arrow?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 10, 2019 13:32:56 GMT
What's the word on Justin Hartley appearing as Green Arrow? Slim to none. I mean, he's busy with This is Us. If they did manage to shoot something, they've done an incredible job keeping it quiet.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 10, 2019 17:56:13 GMT
So we already know that all the Earths that have been destroyed are going to be brought back in the end.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 10, 2019 19:48:05 GMT
So we already know that all the Earths that have been destroyed are going to be brought back in the end. More than likely, but I'd prefer the conventional ending to Crisis of one amalgamated Earth. I'm not holding my breath though.
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SportsFan19
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Post by SportsFan19 on Dec 10, 2019 20:46:12 GMT
I thought in early seasons of the Flash (s2 or 3) they said there were only 52 Earths. Why is there now an infinite amount, did I miss something? (I assume I missed something, unless it's an unexplained ret-con).
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Post by dazz on Dec 10, 2019 20:59:01 GMT
Holy crap buckets they remembered Constantine may have magic that can help them sweet jesus what a novel idea, oh for fuck sake now he's powerless? fuck you.
So one earth held 2 Paragons? out of all the multiverse? seems improbable, why are the 3 main female heroes all Paragons but not the men? granted Barry at best could be described as the Paragon of fuck ups but still wheres the love? this imo should have been a thing established in episode 1, name Oliver as one of the Paragons, of will or something then when he "dies" it isn't just a sad thing but a crippling blow to the Monitor's plan, then the B plot of bringing him back makes more sense as a strategic move.
God the Smallville stuff was such a fucking tease, fuck you writers, also in the comics didn't Clark deal with the Crisis already? and my god didn't the writers maybe think to watch the Smallville finale? the final scene was set in 2018, Clark and Lois were both in Metropolis, not married, without kids so literally this is 1 year on from the finale scenes of Smallville and Clark just gives it all up? fucking idiots, atleast give him a heroic reason, he lost his powers saving the world and now he lives a human life and he is happy, but also if you are going to do that don't have them tell him about Crisis, let Lex poof them away before they can say anything, then have Clark acknowledge his knowledge of the multiverse but not reveal the soon to arrive calamity so he doesn't look like such a putz walking off happily to what he knows is to be his soon dead family...fuck you fuck you FUCK YOU!!!
Does it show I really didn't like the Smallville stuff? I think I kept myself in check pretty well.
The Batman stuff is just like wtf on EVERY fucking level, him going darker I can get, the whole killing thing works to an extent, this isn't the first dark iteration of Batman to exist, but I would have liked it if the glasses either weren't with the other trophies, or they weren't trophies but reminders, and the fight with Superman not only broke Bruce's body but killing Clark is what broke Bruce and made him see he went too far when he realised Clark died to stop Bruce in the end, Superman going out doing what he always did, stopping evil, but wtf with the killing Batman? isn't against what both Kate and Supergirl are about? then again how does Kate block a blow meant for Supergirl which a second earlier set Kara the fucking Kryptonian flying? is that suit like an crocodiles jaw, it's only powerful when throwing a straight punch? God I hate this episode, and the Kate reveal was so obvious it hurt.
I agree with Stargazer about the meta Legends humour shit, it doesn't fucking work just stop it, now the more simple comedy is ok I liked the Mick calming Jon thing, except I would have had Mick take him after Clark couldn't calm him and say he's great with kids, the look on Clark's face when he calms down for Mick is hilarious, but also a bit underserved as Clark knows nothing about this Mick, hell neither do we he's not Earth-1's Mick.
Ok so the book can be used by Lex to go universe hoping to kill numerous Supermen and also corrupt the Paragon of truth but cannot bring back Oliver? the fucking pit's can bring him back, this isn't implied to be some super extremely powerful act in these shows, jesus fucking Christ.
Also how is Kate the paragon of courage? what courage does she show than none of the other characters have? if anything she's the least courageous the second she heard there was a gun that could penetrate her super suit she was quaking in her bat boots, also Kara as the paragon of Hope is fine but Hope is not retardation which her maybe that will be the two of you somneday line makes her seem like, no Kara Beth is now a murdering psychopath who just killed her step mother and also poisoned her step sister...the 2nd attempt to kill said step sister in a year, if they catch Beth/Alice she's going away for life, she isn't going to be making happy memories with Kate you chuckle fuck.
This episode was shite.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 10, 2019 21:00:15 GMT
I thought in early seasons of the Flash (s2 or 3) they said there were only 52 Earths. Why is there now an infinite amount, did I miss something? (I assume I missed something, unless it's an unexplained ret-con). That went out the window with the inexplicably named "Earth-X" after which there were Earth 90s and others that no longer bothered confirming to the old convention.
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Post by dazz on Dec 10, 2019 21:00:35 GMT
I thought in early seasons of the Flash (s2 or 3) they said there were only 52 Earths. Why is there now an infinite amount, did I miss something? (I assume I missed something, unless it's an unexplained ret-con). Yeah continuity isn't their strength, don't expect it to make sense.
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Post by Prime etc. on Dec 10, 2019 21:35:12 GMT
Holy crap buckets they remembered Constantine may have magic that can help them sweet jesus what a novel idea, oh for fuck sake now he's powerless? fuck you. So one earth held 2 Paragons? out of all the multiverse? seems improbable, why are the 3 main female heroes all Paragons but not the men? Clark just gives it all up? fucking idiots, atleast give him a heroic reason, The Batman stuff is just like wtf on EVERY fucking level, This episode was shite. Basically you can reduce your frustrations if you remember "white males must be fails." That way you can expect it. The corporations are once again laying the propaganda out for Hillary.
Just try to guess what white man failure motif they will put into the next episode and you will have more fun.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 2:56:15 GMT
This episode was terrible, just watched it. They dropped the ball big time...and it fell right through to the very bottom of the pits of Hell. Felt like a filler episode too...WOW just WOW. This is meant to be 'the crossover event', more important than any of them and this is what they produce? I wouldnt trust these guys to fetch me a slice of pizza...
The only redeeming thing was Routh's Superman. It was good to see Tom Welling but that was weak as shit. I kinda feel sorry for both Conroy and Welling for participating in this lame-ass project...
So, Oliver came back to life huh? Why is the soul so important this time? Cant remember but what happened with Sara, Thea and Roy? I think Thea had the lotus potion or something? Still very annoyed that Ra's, the one known for using it, didnt get a turn..
I still think Ollie might die again and thats the death the Monitor saw. Perhaps Ollie will sacrifice himself as his soul wont be whole?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 11, 2019 3:44:41 GMT
This episode was terrible, just watched it. They dropped the ball big time...and it fell right through to the very bottom of the pits of Hell. Felt like a filler episode too...WOW just WOW. This is meant to be 'the crossover event', more important than any of them and this is what they produce? I wouldnt trust these guys to fetch me a slice of pizza... The only redeeming thing was Routh's Superman. It was good to see Tom Welling but that was weak as shit. I kinda feel sorry for both Conroy and Welling for participating in this lame-ass project... So, Oliver came back to life huh? Why is the soul so important this time? Cant remember but what happened with Sara, Thea and Roy? I think Thea had the lotus potion or something? Still very annoyed that Ra's, the one known for using it, didnt get a turn.. I still think Ollie might die again and thats the death the Monitor saw. Perhaps Ollie will sacrifice himself as his soul wont be whole? They did in fact have to retrieve Sara's soul with John Constantine's help. But she, unlike Roy or Thea, had legitimately died; whereas Thea was only close to death and who the fuck knows what was going on with Roy. I'm just going to assume syphilis until told otherwise. I'm honestly not the least bit surprised about Welling. He seems like a nice enough guy, from what little I've read about the actor himself. So far as I know, he's never branded anybody... But he has what seems to be an irrational degree of reservation about putting on the fucking Superman suit. But seeing as I hated the finale of Smallville so much I took the time to write my own version, I am completely out of fucks to give about that show or which direction the story has now been taken by the Arrowverse writers. I get that they don't have an Endgame sized budget, but this has been like, amateur hour. I'm not even going to bother watch the second installment of the after show, the first one was just them patting themselves on the back.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 8:01:32 GMT
They did in fact have to retrieve Sara's soul with John Constantine's help. But she, unlike Roy or Thea, had legitimately died; whereas Thea was only close to death and who the fuck knows what was going on with Roy.Fair enough I'm just going to assume syphilis until told otherwise.I get that they don't have an Endgame sized budget, but this has been like, amateur hour. I'm not even going to bother watch the second installment of the after show, the first one was just them patting themselves on the back.I get that too but it still doesnt make sense, they should have extra money for the fewer Arrow eps and just seriously badly concocted the second ep. To me thats a cardinal sin and would fire whoever ok'd this episode if I was in charge and if i couldnt fire them, give them so much work they would eventually quit themselves. The drop in quality is preposterous. i dont remember a cw superhero crossover ep ever being this bad
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Post by dazz on Dec 11, 2019 11:28:36 GMT
I get that they don't have an Endgame sized budget, but this has been like, amateur hour. I'm not even going to bother watch the second installment of the after show, the first one was just them patting themselves on the back.I get that too but it still doesnt make sense, they should have extra money for the fewer Arrow eps and just seriously badly concocted the second ep. To me thats a cardinal sin and would fire whoever ok'd this episode if I was in charge and if i couldnt fire them, give them so much work they would eventually quit themselves. The drop in quality is preposterous. i dont remember a cw superhero crossover ep ever being this bad Not really how it works, budgets get decided by how much they can make per episode and so can spend per episode, a shorter season does not impact episode budgets as they make the same money back regardless if it's 8, 12 or 20 episodes.
But this is an issue I have with how they treat the crossovers, they should NOT be part of the individual shows regular seasons, not in terms of budget and stuff, they should be considered as an annual mini series and given their own higher budgets due to these episodes tending to be among if not outright the biggest ratings the CW gets every year, also would prevent the cock up in the writing where in depending on whose show it is that episode features more of that shows cast, treat it separately and use the characters as needed in a manner which makes sense for the plot.
But I would also stop doing the crossover at the same fucking time every year, I don't care how many times I have said it before but Flashpoint should have been that years crossover and it should have kicked off the season, why the fuck does EVERY fucking crossover happen between thanksgiving and Christmas ffs? Then again why do new villains always pop up in October and major villains don't appear between May and October? so fucking stupid.
But back to the budget that's not the real issue, the real issue is the time frame, they tend to only have weeks 2 months at most to do the effects which is why it's always so off, they just don't have the time to properly render the details, this is why though the crossovers like this should be first on the docket for effects because it's the biggest audience you are going to get so give them the most time possible, hell film the crossovers first so you know ok this is how this story ends so you can know this is what we need to build into, instead of this bullshit we get where the lead up is fucking pointless because they make the shit up as they go.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 11, 2019 14:21:16 GMT
But back to the budget that's not the real issue, the real issue is the time frame, they tend to only have weeks 2 months at most to do the effects which is why it's always so off, they just don't have the time to properly render the details, this is why though the crossovers like this should be first on the docket for effects because it's the biggest audience you are going to get so give them the most time possible, hell film the crossovers first so you know ok this is how this story ends so you can know this is what we need to build into, instead of this bullshit we get where the lead up is fucking pointless because they make the shit up as they go. They absolutely need to treat the crossovers like separate content from the individual series; giving the mini-series it's own budget, that would arguably be more than the combined budgets of four or five regular episodes. Especially when it's not the show runners asking the CW to do them, but supposedly the other way around. The show runners always complain about how logistically tiring it is and the network always has to convince them to do another one. At least after the first major crossover, they learned their lesson not to treat the production schedule like they shoot 5 regular episodes concurrently, which from the sound of it, practically killed everyone; because, duh, it meant putting in 4-5 times the work during the same period. Yet the network can't pony up the extra cash to make it more worthwhile. The Arrowverse shows, and really a lot of other productions, need to look at getting back to doing practical effects again; and finding a balance between practical effects and CGI, so that everything looks as good as it possibly can, while also being cost effective. Nevermind that practical effects that can be done on stage during filming are then already filmed and in the can and don't require any additional work beyond basic editing. They might be embellished a little with digital effects, but otherwise they're ready to air as soon as the director yells, cut, print. No extra turn around time needed, apart from cutting the episode together
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Post by dazz on Dec 11, 2019 15:22:49 GMT
But back to the budget that's not the real issue, the real issue is the time frame, they tend to only have weeks 2 months at most to do the effects which is why it's always so off, they just don't have the time to properly render the details, this is why though the crossovers like this should be first on the docket for effects because it's the biggest audience you are going to get so give them the most time possible, hell film the crossovers first so you know ok this is how this story ends so you can know this is what we need to build into, instead of this bullshit we get where the lead up is fucking pointless because they make the shit up as they go.
Problem is that makes the shows longer to film and longer days for the actors, which presumably makes it more costly in that regard as practical stuff requires hours of make up and stuff, I think ultimately it makes no real difference in time, as the time saved in shooting an episode using cgi just shifts the work to the effects house or houses who spend hundreds of man hours on stuff, but it means the show can film more episodes quicker which means less operations costs and stuff I guess, and probably lower rates for directors and reoccurring or guest stars.
But yeah practical is so much more impressive, I mean the practical effect of Barry superspeeding out of a room is so much more impressive than the crappy speedster running with the CGI background imo, and all that takes is an air cannon and every playing musical statues for a few seconds, add a little lightning cgi and there yah have it.
And yeah if they were to do the crossovers as separate mini series they should give it a higher budget, film it as they do now which I think took them like a month to do so, but film most of it before you film the individual series so what effects you need have the time to be done, but also don't overuse them, if it's needed then use them if it isn't then don't, I liked the Superman Vs Superman fight for the most part but the fact they couldn't really show much due to their limitations makes it underwhelming, I would rather have seen them do the simpler hand to hand stuff and they use the simple shake the building effect to show how powerful they are whilst they also punch holes in the walls and stuff.
That's the other thing though if they know they have the crossover coming up why waste resources and time on meaningless cgi for the throw away episodes of the shows, why the fuck did we need the Ralph Vs. Bloodwork CGI shite? it looked bad wasn't entertaining and really lead to nothing, atleast the Bloodwork monster served something of a purpose by being the monster Barry had to defeat to end that arc but what was the point of the Ralph cgi? there is limited time for this shit so don't waste it on frivolous crap.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 11, 2019 17:15:26 GMT
I've wondered if or how more extensive practical effects would be feasible, but man, shows used to do that all the fucking time. Michael Dorn played Worf for over a decade between TNG and DS9. He'd have to get to make-up early in the morning for like, a two hour make-up process; which isn't ideal, but he looked so much more impressive than fucking Martian Manhunter - who we rarely see, ostensibly because using the CGI all the time wouldn't be practical (and it looks like shit). Hell, as much crap as I give Star Trek Discovery and have everything they do, the not "new" Klingon make-up is pretty impressive from a technical aesthetic standpoint. I still hate that they've changes the Klingon look so much, but as a practical design it's impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 22:18:06 GMT
I get that they don't have an Endgame sized budget, but this has been like, amateur hour. I'm not even going to bother watch the second installment of the after show, the first one was just them patting themselves on the back.I get that too but it still doesnt make sense, they should have extra money for the fewer Arrow eps and just seriously badly concocted the second ep. To me thats a cardinal sin and would fire whoever ok'd this episode if I was in charge and if i couldnt fire them, give them so much work they would eventually quit themselves. The drop in quality is preposterous. i dont remember a cw superhero crossover ep ever being this bad Not really how it works, budgets get decided by how much they can make per episode and so can spend per episode, a shorter season does not impact episode budgets as they make the same money back regardless if it's 8, 12 or 20 episodes.
But this is an issue I have with how they treat the crossovers, they should NOT be part of the individual shows regular seasons, not in terms of budget and stuff, they should be considered as an annual mini series and given their own higher budgets due to these episodes tending to be among if not outright the biggest ratings the CW gets every year, also would prevent the cock up in the writing where in depending on whose show it is that episode features more of that shows cast, treat it separately and use the characters as needed in a manner which makes sense for the plot.
But I would also stop doing the crossover at the same fucking time every year, I don't care how many times I have said it before but Flashpoint should have been that years crossover and it should have kicked off the season, why the fuck does EVERY fucking crossover happen between thanksgiving and Christmas ffs? Then again why do new villains always pop up in October and major villains don't appear between May and October? so fucking stupid.
But back to the budget that's not the real issue, the real issue is the time frame, they tend to only have weeks 2 months at most to do the effects which is why it's always so off, they just don't have the time to properly render the details, this is why though the crossovers like this should be first on the docket for effects because it's the biggest audience you are going to get so give them the most time possible, hell film the crossovers first so you know ok this is how this story ends so you can know this is what we need to build into, instead of this bullshit we get where the lead up is fucking pointless because they make the shit up as they go.
Fair enough. How do you know all this? True, even the crossover threads are getting more hits than the standard episodes lol
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