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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 20, 2017 15:05:10 GMT
Rogue 1: I didn't see this crummy movie, and never will. I think it's bullshit to be putting quantity over quality in the Star Wars name by churning out this crap.
What I did see was the clip where Vader is going down a hallway and all by himself and takes out a bunch of rebel soldiers shooting at him and he easily defeats them all with his light saber and the force. So why in the fuck didn't he do this in the very first SW film when we see the first battle between storm troopers and rebel soldiers also shooting at each other down a ship's hallway? Why bother with storm troopers at all if Vader is nearby? And just how in the fuck can Vader in an earlier battle just days before encountering Obi-Wan be more flexible, versatile and active?
The R1 Vader would have taken out Obi-Wan in seconds and struck him down without Obi-Wan having to lift up his light saber sacrificing himself like that. "I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last." Slash, boom, game over for the old man.
What happened? Did he get arthritis or did his suit malfunction in between light saber battles?
What I think really happened is the shit for brains screenwriters made the same shit for brains mistake Luca$h made before he wrote the PT. None of them went back and watched the OT before writing the retarded scripts. It's the only way to explain why the farther back they go, the more forward it also goes which doesn't match at all.
Thoughts and discuss....
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 20, 2017 15:15:37 GMT
Well, your last bit nails it. I think we could have had a scene more congruent with ANH and still let Vader be a badass, he just shouldn't have been moving like he was still a young, spry Anakin. Right?
Problem is, every movie has to get bigger and better. Consistency can fuck off! Explosions!
Admittedly, I enjoyed the scene, but it doesn't really play nice with the beginning of ANH, or the Vader in ANH. You're right. Honestly, I'd actually almost be ok with Lucas pulling a "Fury Road" and re-do ANH with effects of today and with maybe some of the world-building he's gotten good at. Would piss everyone off though, and Disney would probably make it about Rey.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 21, 2017 3:10:01 GMT
Well, your last bit nails it. I think we could have had a scene more congruent with ANH and still let Vader be a badass, he just shouldn't have been moving like he was still a young, spry Anakin. Right? The Force influences and changes the way users move. Remember how Yoda would move with the cane? However when he was using the Force, he could jump/flip around effortlessly.
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Post by jammer81386 on Apr 21, 2017 4:24:34 GMT
Rogue 1: I didn't see this crummy movie, and never will. I think it's bullshit to be putting quantity over quality in the Star Wars name by churning out this crap. What I did see was the clip where Vader is going down a hallway and all by himself and takes out a bunch of rebel soldiers shooting at him and he easily defeats them all with his light saber and the force. So why in the fuck didn't he do this in the very first SW film when we see the first battle between storm troopers and rebel soldiers also shooting at each other down a ship's hallway? Why bother with storm troopers at all if Vader is nearby? And just how in the fuck can Vader in an earlier battle just days before encountering Obi-Wan be more flexible, versatile and active? The R1 Vader would have taken out Obi-Wan in seconds and struck him down without Obi-Wan having to lift up his light saber sacrificing himself like that. "I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last." Slash, boom, game over for the old man. What happened? Did he get arthritis or did his suit malfunction in between light saber battles? What I think really happened is the shit for brains screenwriters made the same shit for brains mistake Luca$h made before he wrote the PT. None of them went back and watched the OT before writing the retarded scripts. It's the only way to explain why the farther back they go, the more forward it also goes which doesn't match at all. Thoughts and discuss.... Here are my thoughts -- Vader was commanding the ship on the bridge. By the time he had made it to the docking bay the Stormtroopers had already seized the ship. Also, why would Vader need to fight. He has underlings for that. --Vader was being cautious during his fight with Ben Kenobi. He had already underestimated his former master, and overestimated himself, once before. Remember how that turned out?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 13:30:54 GMT
1. Boring answer is that they wouldn't be able to do it with their budget at the time. In universe answer is that the stormtroopers already had control of the ship by the time Vader arrived
2. You have to consider than Obi-Wan is also very powerful. He was training himself for 19 years on Tatooine
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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 21, 2017 15:18:31 GMT
Well, your last bit nails it. I think we could have had a scene more congruent with ANH and still let Vader be a badass, he just shouldn't have been moving like he was still a young, spry Anakin. Right? The Force influences and changes the way users move. Remember how Yoda would move with the cane? However when he was using the Force, he could jump/flip around effortlessly. Then why wasn't he like that on Dagobah? Because they couldn't do a CGI Yoda back then. Which one do you like better? The one that jumps around like a spazzing little monkey or the one that is a wizened old sage that makes light sabers look like candy canes and that he is too powerful and above of using such things? And I dunno about you but to me the muppet Yoda looks real while the CGI one looks fake.
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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 21, 2017 15:25:21 GMT
Rogue 1: I didn't see this crummy movie, and never will. I think it's bullshit to be putting quantity over quality in the Star Wars name by churning out this crap. What I did see was the clip where Vader is going down a hallway and all by himself and takes out a bunch of rebel soldiers shooting at him and he easily defeats them all with his light saber and the force. So why in the fuck didn't he do this in the very first SW film when we see the first battle between storm troopers and rebel soldiers also shooting at each other down a ship's hallway? Why bother with storm troopers at all if Vader is nearby? And just how in the fuck can Vader in an earlier battle just days before encountering Obi-Wan be more flexible, versatile and active? The R1 Vader would have taken out Obi-Wan in seconds and struck him down without Obi-Wan having to lift up his light saber sacrificing himself like that. "I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last." Slash, boom, game over for the old man. What happened? Did he get arthritis or did his suit malfunction in between light saber battles? What I think really happened is the shit for brains screenwriters made the same shit for brains mistake Luca$h made before he wrote the PT. None of them went back and watched the OT before writing the retarded scripts. It's the only way to explain why the farther back they go, the more forward it also goes which doesn't match at all. Thoughts and discuss.... Here are my thoughts -- Vader was commanding the ship on the bridge. By the time he had made it to the docking bay the Stormtroopers had already seized the ship. Also, why would Vader need to fight. He has underlings for that. --Vader was being cautious during his fight with Ben Kenobi. He had already underestimated his former master, and overestimated himself, once before. Remember how that turned out? Those are the fan fiction answers. Of course the real reasons is because no one at the time thought of Vader as having any more strength of powers of the dark side than he exhibits in the OT. And their mistake with this bad ass Vader scene is they were not consistent with the OT Vader. It wouldn't surprise me at all when Luca$h watched that scene that he was kicking himself thinking, "Now why didn't we come up with that? We would have saved thousands on costumes and by not hiring extras to play storm troopers."
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Post by jammer81386 on Apr 21, 2017 15:25:42 GMT
The Force influences and changes the way users move. Remember how Yoda would move with the cane? However when he was using the Force, he could jump/flip around effortlessly. Then why wasn't he like that on Dagobah? Because they couldn't do a CGI Yoda back then. Which one do you like better? The one that jumps around like a spazzing little monkey or the one that is a wizened old sage that makes light sabers look like candy canes and that he is too powerful and above of using such things? And I dunno about you but to me the muppet Yoda looks real while the CGI one looks fake. Keep in mind that Yoda died, of old age, a mere year after Luke first arrived. Time caught up with him. And Why should future films be hamstrung by the technical limitations of the past? I suppose I prefer wise old sage version, but watching yoda fight was a lot of fun. So I have no problem with it. The CGI Yoda has aged very well. No complaints.
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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 21, 2017 15:28:09 GMT
Another example of how wrong the R1 Vader vs OT Vader is the interrogation scene.
Here we first see him in R1 using the force to lift and toss around rebel soldiers as easy as cotton balls. If he can do that, then why bother lifting up the rebel officer by the neck? Why not just use the force to lift and choke him without laying a hand on him?
Lazy screen writing leaving these plot holes and inconstancies. They should quit already while they are behind.
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Post by jammer81386 on Apr 21, 2017 15:38:45 GMT
Here are my thoughts -- Vader was commanding the ship on the bridge. By the time he had made it to the docking bay the Stormtroopers had already seized the ship. Also, why would Vader need to fight. He has underlings for that. --Vader was being cautious during his fight with Ben Kenobi. He had already underestimated his former master, and overestimated himself, once before. Remember how that turned out? Those are the fan fiction answers. Of course the real reasons is because no one at the time thought of Vader as having any more strength of powers of the dark side than he exhibits in the OT. And their mistake with this bad ass Vader scene is they were not consistent with the OT Vader. It wouldn't surprise me at all when Luca$h watched that scene that he was kicking himself thinking, "Now why didn't we come up with that? We would have saved thousands on costumes and by not hiring extras to play storm troopers." --Fanfiction answers, huh? Kenobi retorted, mocking the Dark Lord with his Sith title, before attacking. Vader took the blow and riposted, speeding up his timing, forcing Kenobi to retreat. Kenobi then twirled and blocked a slash, weaving a defensive pattern with his blade. As they fought, Vader reflected that Kenobi still possessed great skill despite his age, but was out of practice. Though Kenobi's age and lack of practice had decreased his combat effectiveness, Vader mused that he needed to conduct himself cautiously if he was to defeat Kenobi. For though Vader knew his skill and power were greater than Kenobi's, he had boasted similar advantages during his duel with Kenobi on Mustafar, but had been defeated nonetheless. As such, he refrained from utilizing the same sort of reckless offensive that had resulted in his dismemberment, and adopted a fairly defensive posture. As the duel progressed, Kenobi found that, while he was still able to anticipate Vader's attacks and defend himself, he could find no openings in Vader's cautious but ruthless assault. As such, all he could do was to simply block Vader's cybernetically enhanced blows, the act of which was very rapidly depleting his energy reserves. Vader sensed Kenobi's failing strength and derisively taunted the Jedi Master.[8] LINK
With all that said, A New Hope was the first entry in the entire franchise. The universe was still being built. At the time of its production, Lucas saw the The Emperor a mere puppet of the military. His role changed as the series developed. The Badass Vader is not inconsistent as we never saw Vader in a battle situation prior to this. Also, you didn't answer my question. Why does Vader need to be fighting?
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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 21, 2017 16:13:35 GMT
Those are the fan fiction answers. Of course the real reasons is because no one at the time thought of Vader as having any more strength of powers of the dark side than he exhibits in the OT. And their mistake with this bad ass Vader scene is they were not consistent with the OT Vader. It wouldn't surprise me at all when Luca$h watched that scene that he was kicking himself thinking, "Now why didn't we come up with that? We would have saved thousands on costumes and by not hiring extras to play storm troopers." --Fanfiction answers, huh? Kenobi retorted, mocking the Dark Lord with his Sith title, before attacking. Vader took the blow and riposted, speeding up his timing, forcing Kenobi to retreat. Kenobi then twirled and blocked a slash, weaving a defensive pattern with his blade. As they fought, Vader reflected that Kenobi still possessed great skill despite his age, but was out of practice. Though Kenobi's age and lack of practice had decreased his combat effectiveness, Vader mused that he needed to conduct himself cautiously if he was to defeat Kenobi. For though Vader knew his skill and power were greater than Kenobi's, he had boasted similar advantages during his duel with Kenobi on Mustafar, but had been defeated nonetheless. As such, he refrained from utilizing the same sort of reckless offensive that had resulted in his dismemberment, and adopted a fairly defensive posture. As the duel progressed, Kenobi found that, while he was still able to anticipate Vader's attacks and defend himself, he could find no openings in Vader's cautious but ruthless assault. As such, all he could do was to simply block Vader's cybernetically enhanced blows, the act of which was very rapidly depleting his energy reserves. Vader sensed Kenobi's failing strength and derisively taunted the Jedi Master.[8] LINK
With all that said, A New Hope was the first entry in the entire franchise. The universe was still being built. At the time of its production, Lucas saw the The Emperor a mere puppet of the military. His role changed as the series developed. The Badass Vader is not inconsistent as we never saw Vader in a battle situation prior to this. Also, you didn't answer my question. Why does Vader need to be fighting? That quote and link you provided, it is from a fan site so I wonder when that was written. Was it during the time ANH came out or after the PT? If it is the latter then it may be a justification for the slow light saber duel between the two masters of the different aspects of the force. I didn't answer your question because I didn't see it. In what context? Light saber fights, the rebel soldiers or at all?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 16:30:04 GMT
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Post by jammer81386 on Apr 21, 2017 17:12:59 GMT
--Fanfiction answers, huh? Kenobi retorted, mocking the Dark Lord with his Sith title, before attacking. Vader took the blow and riposted, speeding up his timing, forcing Kenobi to retreat. Kenobi then twirled and blocked a slash, weaving a defensive pattern with his blade. As they fought, Vader reflected that Kenobi still possessed great skill despite his age, but was out of practice. Though Kenobi's age and lack of practice had decreased his combat effectiveness, Vader mused that he needed to conduct himself cautiously if he was to defeat Kenobi. For though Vader knew his skill and power were greater than Kenobi's, he had boasted similar advantages during his duel with Kenobi on Mustafar, but had been defeated nonetheless. As such, he refrained from utilizing the same sort of reckless offensive that had resulted in his dismemberment, and adopted a fairly defensive posture. As the duel progressed, Kenobi found that, while he was still able to anticipate Vader's attacks and defend himself, he could find no openings in Vader's cautious but ruthless assault. As such, all he could do was to simply block Vader's cybernetically enhanced blows, the act of which was very rapidly depleting his energy reserves. Vader sensed Kenobi's failing strength and derisively taunted the Jedi Master.[8] LINK
With all that said, A New Hope was the first entry in the entire franchise. The universe was still being built. At the time of its production, Lucas saw the The Emperor a mere puppet of the military. His role changed as the series developed. The Badass Vader is not inconsistent as we never saw Vader in a battle situation prior to this. Also, you didn't answer my question. Why does Vader need to be fighting? That quote and link you provided, it is from a fan site so I wonder when that was written. Was it during the time ANH came out or after the PT? If it is the latter then it may be a justification for the slow light saber duel between the two masters of the different aspects of the force. I didn't answer your question because I didn't see it. In what context? Light saber fights, the rebel soldiers or at all? Do you see the "[8]" at the end. Its called a source. Follow it. You are making arguments that are in contradiction with each other. On the one hand you are complaining about bad continuity, on the other you complaining about continuity? Which is the problem? My question is, in universe why did Vader need to fight on the Tantive IV?
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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 21, 2017 18:00:56 GMT
The Force influences and changes the way users move. Remember how Yoda would move with the cane? However when he was using the Force, he could jump/flip around effortlessly. That sounds like a poor explanation to me... There is a chemical called adrenaline. When you get scared or frightened or angry, the body is filled with it and you can do things you normally would not do. Yoda walks with the cane because he is 900 years old. He might even suffer pain from Arthritis. When faced with an enemy, he is able to get that extra strength and focuses on fighting, and ignores the pain... and he does what he needs to do. As we saw, in Empire Strike Back, Yoda was quite tired after he lifted that X Wing fight out of his Swamp. Luke was even out of breath after trying. Just like people who run in 2 hour Marathon, they are tired afterwards... and they don't run, or do much else, for the remaining 14 hours that day. There are real stories of Humans doing incredible things in time of Emergencies, that they would be able to do under everyday circumstances. There is No Force helping them. The force doesn't turn Yoda into "The Incredible Hulk" to fight Sith.
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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 21, 2017 18:10:59 GMT
Here we first see him in R1 using the force to lift and toss around rebel soldiers as easy as cotton balls. If he can do that, then why bother lifting up the rebel officer by the neck? Why not just use the force to lift and choke him without laying a hand on him? Because he was interrogating the officer for information, and not just trying to kill the soldiers and get them out of the way... Plus, as we saw with Luke's artificial hand, he could feel sensations with it.... Perhaps, Vader liked the feeling of strangling people.
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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 21, 2017 19:53:19 GMT
That quote and link you provided, it is from a fan site so I wonder when that was written. Was it during the time ANH came out or after the PT? If it is the latter then it may be a justification for the slow light saber duel between the two masters of the different aspects of the force. I didn't answer your question because I didn't see it. In what context? Light saber fights, the rebel soldiers or at all? OK I tried that but it either just refreshes the page or to a page on a Death Star novel which came out after Sith. If the described duel between Vader and Ben that you posted is from the novel, then it looks like the authors are justifying how Vader acts to keep up with current inconsistencies in the movies. The former. To make it exciting for the fans while ignoring how slow and cumbersome he really is with a light saber. He didn't want to kill but just capture Luke in ESB. But again, if we had gotten R1 Vader in that, mission accomplished.
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Post by WarrenPeace on Apr 21, 2017 20:00:15 GMT
Here we first see him in R1 using the force to lift and toss around rebel soldiers as easy as cotton balls. If he can do that, then why bother lifting up the rebel officer by the neck? Why not just use the force to lift and choke him without laying a hand on him? Because he was interrogating the officer for information, and not just trying to kill the soldiers and get them out of the way... Plus, as we saw with Luke's artificial hand, he could feel sensations with it.... Perhaps, Vader liked the feeling of strangling people. He could have lifted up the officer easily. They just didn't think of any other way or the special effects technology didn't exist than. I'll accept your second answer for now. That he likes to get his hands dirty. When you go back and watch SW, it is very slow paced compared to the current ones because of the cumbersome SFX and by using actual models and puppets. Besides, it also looks a hellalot more real than the CGI. I like that pacing better. Not just for the dog fights and light saber battles and other action stuff but it also gives it more of an opportunity with old school film making with a really good story, character arc and development. SW is my favorite one and always will be because of that. The first one sets up the stories and characters for what follows. It is now more about quantity than quality and SW has become a shell of what it once was. In some ways it is more about action and SFX when before there was a perfect balance of that and story lines. I am including the animated and other spinoffs of it. As mentioned before I have no desire to see R1. Just clips and stuff. Now I see (Ha!) that they even threw in the old cliche' of a blind fighter who kicks ass. C'mon! SW should be above such obvious shit.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 22, 2017 0:58:21 GMT
The Force influences and changes the way users move. Remember how Yoda would move with the cane? However when he was using the Force, he could jump/flip around effortlessly. Then why wasn't he like that on Dagobah? Because they couldn't do a CGI Yoda back then. Which one do you like better? The one that jumps around like a spazzing little monkey or the one that is a wizened old sage that makes light sabers look like candy canes and that he is too powerful and above of using such things? And I dunno about you but to me the muppet Yoda looks real while the CGI one looks fake. Why are you asking me questions and then answering them yourself? I don't get it. Personally, I like both Yodas (digital/puppet) but prefer the OT puppet just a little more. I think there was just something about having Frank Oz actually on set and controlling the puppet with the action/emotion. He really was brilliant in Episode 5 and 6. However, the Episode 1 Yoda puppet was dreadful! Too bad they took too long before Episode 1 was about to film to pull the OT Yoda puppet out of storage and found out what had happened to it... uh oh!
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 22, 2017 1:06:58 GMT
The Force influences and changes the way users move. Remember how Yoda would move with the cane? However when he was using the Force, he could jump/flip around effortlessly. That sounds like a poor explanation to me... There is a chemical called adrenaline. When you get scared or frightened or angry, the body is filled with it and you can do things you normally would not do. Yoda walks with the cane because he is 900 years old. He might even suffer pain from Arthritis. When faced with an enemy, he is able to get that extra strength and focuses on fighting, and ignores the pain... and he does what he needs to do. As we saw, in Empire Strike Back, Yoda was quite tired after he lifted that X Wing fight out of his Swamp. Luke was even out of breath after trying. Just like people who run in 2 hour Marathon, they are tired afterwards... and they don't run, or do much else, for the remaining 14 hours that day. There are real stories of Humans doing incredible things in time of Emergencies, that they would be able to do under everyday circumstances. There is No Force helping them. The force doesn't turn Yoda into "The Incredible Hulk" to fight Sith.Actually, it does. "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."- Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode 4
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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 22, 2017 2:06:19 GMT
"It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." Han Solo is alive... Leia is alive too, and is Luke's twin sister... Why can't either of them lift X-Wing Fighters?
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