|
Post by merh on Jan 7, 2020 2:02:53 GMT
I would agree with that - at least with Episode 4 and maybe 5. 6 would have been too sexual for what Walt would have wanted to put out in his day. Walt Disney was a visionary too, especially with the creation of Disneyland (everyone laughed/shook their heads at him thinking it would be a huge failure). The days of Walt's creativity are way over at Disney, unfortunately... Also Walt wouldn't include limb dismemberment and violence but all that mixed with original Disney wholesomeness are the magic ingrediants of Star Wars. Weird how only Favreau understands this. Walt Disney killed how many parents? "Bambi, your mother can't be with you anymore"? Snow White's step mom wants her dead. A crocodile chasing a pirate around to eat the rest of him. Dumbo's mom. Pinocchio boys turn into animals... But you're worried about a limb or 2 getting chopped off... You know the jaded amongst us back in 1977 felt the arm chop was added to get the PG rating & more money.
|
|
|
Post by merh on Jan 7, 2020 2:04:37 GMT
I love that argument. Like there's anything to "get" in these movies.... I love Star Wars, but they are not deep/philosophical films. You didn't notice, but it's there. SW is interpreted in many different ways depending on the viewer. Yeah. People see Jesus on their toast, also.
|
|
|
Post by merh on Jan 7, 2020 2:24:00 GMT
Orrrrr.... Maybe one "gets" them perfectly, and still thinks they're lame.It's not that complex, dude.... personally, I do not see how that conclusion could be reached within the context of modern blockbuster entertainment (not: classic literature, politics or philosophy) considering that these films are unusually rich in themes, substance and storytelling. I mean these are frequently called modern mythology, with good reason. The films inter alia cover: - the heroes journey and the tragic-heroes journey (Luke in Jedi) - the corruption and downfall of heroes (the villain's journey) - redemption through love - the systematic dismantling of liberty/democracy and the rise of strong-man demagogues - the inability to let go and destroying the thing one loves - overcoming your advisors and taking the lead (Luke in VI, Padme in I) - spiritual aspects like the Force (living Force, cosmic Force etc) - the triumph of evil when civil forces fail to name a few. This is not your typical paint-by-numbers clobber porn. But again: Even if one does not get or appreciate the themes and substance of it, these films are still masterworks of design, sound and motion. There are no fake fans, only real ones. Its mythology? Its Flash Gordon & Buck Rogers You think it's an accident those titles were revived after Star Wars made more money than anyone thought it could? Lucas mentioned those titles as what he was trying to re-create. I was in the Inland Empire getting LA stations playing the old Buck Rogers & Flash Gordon serials to try to gloms some of the fans into watching those stations. "See where George Lucas got his ideas". Hercules kills his family. The labors. Thor having to masquerade as Freya to get his hammer back. The tales we all read as children. Universal themes which touch the soul & feel so familiar. Tales as old as time, that our ancestors told as oral tales. Peter Rugg "I'll get home tonight or I'll never get home". The girl hitching a ride late at night vanishing from the car outside the graveyard, leaving the driver's jacket he'd loaned her because she was cold on the headstone. We have heard the archtypes all our lives. I love swashbucklers. Errol Flynn as Captain Blood or Robin Hood. The Scarlet Pimpernel. Is it any wonder I latched onto Han? I knew he had that heart of gold like all the hero pirates like Peter Blood. So, no, not deep. Tales as old as time. Long ago & far away.
|
|
|
Post by Prime etc. on Jan 7, 2020 2:43:57 GMT
Star Wars 77 is a remake of this: www.imdb.com/title/tt0047365/The Flash Gordon element is the wookie-lion man and reference to an Emperor but otherwise most of the story comes from this 1954 Fox film.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 7, 2020 8:53:24 GMT
Come on merh, didn't you know that studying philosophy, religion, anthropology and politics makes you a good writer/director. No it doesn’t. But I suppose copy-and-pasting Lucas makes you a good writer? (Abrams and occasionally Rian Johnson) Or using some of Lucas same writing strategies makes you a good writer? (Rian Johnson) Or using lame plot devices such as mystery box? (Abrams)
|
|
|
Post by johnspartan on Jan 7, 2020 9:22:39 GMT
Also Walt wouldn't include limb dismemberment and violence but all that mixed with original Disney wholesomeness are the magic ingrediants of Star Wars. Weird how only Favreau understands this. Walt Disney killed how many parents? "Bambi, your mother can't be with you anymore"? Snow White's step mom wants her dead. A crocodile chasing a pirate around to eat the rest of him. Dumbo's mom. Pinocchio boys turn into animals... But you're worried about a limb or 2 getting chopped off... You know the jaded amongst us back in 1977 felt the arm chop was added to get the PG rating & more money. Really? You think those CARTOON examples are equivalent to LIVE ACTION dismemberment? It's not, and nothing like that was shown in LIVE ACTION Disney movies while Walt was alive.
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 7, 2020 13:07:52 GMT
I suppose you'd find the "Ring theory" for the prequels to be deep and complex as well? I never studied that theory, so I cannot assess its merit. Deep and shallow, complex and simplistic, good and bad are a point of view. These need a reference point to be meaningful. (i) Take the fall-of-republic theme. This will be depicted in a deeper, more complex way in a textbook (eg Roman Republic, revolutionary France, or Nazi-Germany). But this is not the reference point. The reference point would be other blockbuster franchises dealing with the same theme. To my best knowledge there are none comparable in quality. That says a lot. So, yes this is "deep/complex", ie handled in a meaningful, original and creative way. (iii) Or let's even take some of Star Wars most mocked parts: Ewoks, Gungans and Sand. Even those are not just mere surface but have implicit themes: - Ewoks: Size matter not, technology matters not (Vietnam reference) - Gungans: symbiotic circle, one affects the other, understand this and work together for common goal. - Not liking Sand: character reference to childhood background as a slave on desert planet, and to his dying mother he left back and must forget All pretty cheesy or children-orientated but there is still a shred of narrative depth even though not very deep and maybe handled better in other franchises (like Avatar or J Carter from Mars). But still it could be worse, what is the narrative theme of the Porgs? Selling toys?
|
|
Jan El Señor
Junior Member
I love everyone.
@janelsenor
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 1,247
|
Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 7, 2020 14:28:14 GMT
So, yes this is "deep/complex", ie handled in a meaningful, original and creative way. But those are not the same things....
|
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Jan 7, 2020 16:29:32 GMT
Walt Disney killed how many parents? "Bambi, your mother can't be with you anymore"? Snow White's step mom wants her dead. A crocodile chasing a pirate around to eat the rest of him. Dumbo's mom. Pinocchio boys turn into animals... But you're worried about a limb or 2 getting chopped off... You know the jaded amongst us back in 1977 felt the arm chop was added to get the PG rating & more money. - Bambi's mother dies off screen. Audiences only hear the gunshot. - Snow White's stepmom doesn't succeed in killing her. - Peter Pan is done to comedic effect. The crocodile never actually kills/eats Hook. It's like Home Alone where if Kevin actually kills Harry and Marv (which would have been almost immediately after them arriving to rob the McCallister residence in Home Alone 1), it would have stopped being funny. Since they don't die though, it's funny watching them get their comeuppance through Kevin's hijinks. The same applies with Hook and the crocodile in Peter Pan. - Dumbo's mom is whipped, but she isn't killed. She's also reunited with Dumbo at the end of the movie. - Pinocchio...I'll give you that one. It's a dark kid's movie. I actually have a signed picture/letter from Dickie Jones who voiced Pinocchio in the classic animated movie. He said in his 2003 letter that he was surprised at how well received the movie was after all these years (he said he recorded his part in 1939 at the age of 11/12 years old so a lot childhoods have come/gone over the years with the movie) due to the scary images. Star Wars had more graphic violence than any of those movies though. The audience sees body parts being cut off by lightsabers, people being shot up, and sexuality (so many boys had their first sexual experience with Leia in the gold bikini). The theatrical cut for Episode 4 even had blood around the arm of Ponda Boba after Obi-Wan cuts it off in the cantina. I don't see Walt Disney approving of the amount of violence/sexuality in the trilogy. Walt Disney wouldn't even smoke in public because he didn't want kids to see him doing so. I highly doubt he would want them watching some of the content in the OT. He may have made the movies, but he would have required them to be tamer.
|
|
senan90
Junior Member
@senan90
Posts: 1,452
Likes: 546
|
Post by senan90 on Jan 7, 2020 17:41:56 GMT
Come on merh, didn't you know that studying philosophy, religion, anthropology and politics makes you a good writer/director. No it doesn’t. But I suppose copy-and-pasting Lucas makes you a good writer? (Abrams and occasionally Rian Johnson) Or using some of Lucas same writing strategies makes you a good writer? (Rian Johnson) Or using lame plot devices such as mystery box? (Abrams) No, but two men in a meth lab for one claustrophobic hour does make for good, if not better art, than Old Hollywood rehashes.
|
|
|
Post by coldenhaulfield on Jan 7, 2020 21:52:39 GMT
Man, this thread has really gone down a rabbit hole...
|
|
|
Post by twothousandonemark on Jan 8, 2020 2:07:00 GMT
I've come to face truth - it is categorically impossible to match the magic of the original trilogy.
Having said that, I was craving every ounce in ROS of uniqueness & newness where I could find it (Finn & the black girl's Stormtrooper histories, Poe & the bounty hunter girl's histories, etc)... until legacy throwbacks & callbacks kept washing over the screen & putting the lifejacket back on.
I want -new- Star Wars.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 9, 2020 0:06:38 GMT
No it doesn’t. But I suppose copy-and-pasting Lucas makes you a good writer? (Abrams and occasionally Rian Johnson) Or using some of Lucas same writing strategies makes you a good writer? (Rian Johnson) Or using lame plot devices such as mystery box? (Abrams) No, but two men in a meth lab for one claustrophobic hour does make for good, if not better art, than Old Hollywood rehashes. Yeah. And Johnson is definitely a better director than a writer.
|
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Jan 15, 2020 5:05:45 GMT
Yeah. And Johnson is definitely a better director than a writer. Yes, his directing is serviceable. His writing is abysmal.
|
|