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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Jan 5, 2020 3:36:59 GMT
including the Star Wars franchise itself, can ever compare to the one in The Empire Strikes Back.
That really was like an emotional, intellectual, and psychological kick in the teeth and punch in the gut.
Everything else is like, meh.
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Post by merh on Jan 5, 2020 7:42:21 GMT
including the Star Wars franchise itself, can ever compare to the one in The Empire Strikes Back. That really was like an emotional, intellectual, and psychological kick in the teeth and punch in the gut. Everything else is like, meh. What? You mean the one that was rumored within a year of the first movie coming out. The comic shop dude tried to make a big deal about The Big Reveal & I told him what it was before the movie released. So he tried to throw something at me I knew was a lie for Jedi & I called him out on it. We had to work hard back then for spoilers. We didn't exactly have the internet in 1980.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 5, 2020 23:41:16 GMT
it's out of the question that this is one, IMO the, most famous and most quoted twist in movie history. Its only next to Citizen Kane, PotA 1968 (You blew it up!) , Usual Suspects or 6th sense on my list.
That being said, from a writing perspective this twist (like the sister twist) is problematic as it made quite a mess of the narrative: Obi Wan retoactively becomes a pathological liar in ANH and Empire who senselessly deceives his pupil into destroying his father by making him believe that he avenges him; in Jedi he adds insult to injury by being a hypocrite. Also, Vader's personality gets split and contradictive.
Twists and mystery boxes should be thought through from the beginning. Spontaneous cool ideas often end up being a veritable Holdo maneuvre.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 6, 2020 22:38:13 GMT
What? You mean the one that was rumored within a year of the first movie coming out.The comic shop dude tried to make a big deal about The Big Reveal & I told him what it was before the movie released. So he tried to throw something at me I knew was a lie for Jedi & I called him out on it. We had to work hard back then for spoilers. We didn't exactly have the internet in 1980. Are you talking about the whole story involving David Prowse supposedly leaking the reveal to some publication? Prowse has always denied it, but Lucas/Lucasfilm didn't believe him. Prowse said working on Return of the Jedi was an awful experience for him as result. They didn't trust him on Episode 6 (thinking he would spoil the ending again), so they shot the final scene between Vader/Luke in a different location using Sebastian Shaw instead. They also denied him access to official Star Wars conventions for decades. Anyway...you must have been one of the few to hear about the ending of Episode 5. Everyone else was blown away by the reveal (including even those who worked on the movie). It wasn't common knowledge.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 6, 2020 23:36:29 GMT
What? You mean the one that was rumored within a year of the first movie coming out.The comic shop dude tried to make a big deal about The Big Reveal & I told him what it was before the movie released. So he tried to throw something at me I knew was a lie for Jedi & I called him out on it. We had to work hard back then for spoilers. We didn't exactly have the internet in 1980. Are you talking about the whole story involving David Prowse supposedly leaking the reveal to some publication? Prowse has always denied it, but Lucas/Lucasfilm didn't believe him. Prowse said working on Return of the Jedi was an awful experience for him as result. They didn't trust him on Episode 6 (thinking he would spoil the ending again), so they shot the final scene between Vader/Luke in a different location using Sebastian Shaw instead. They also denied him access to official Star Wars conventions for decades. Anyway...you must have been one of the few to hear about the ending of Episode 5. Everyone else was blown away by the reveal (including even those who worked on the movie). It wasn't common knowledge. Indeed it wasn’t common knowledge. But I have known how half of TROS turned out for 3 or 4 months now because of leaks.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 7, 2020 11:57:43 GMT
What? You mean the one that was rumored within a year of the first movie coming out.The comic shop dude tried to make a big deal about The Big Reveal & I told him what it was before the movie released. So he tried to throw something at me I knew was a lie for Jedi & I called him out on it. We had to work hard back then for spoilers. We didn't exactly have the internet in 1980. Are you talking about the whole story involving David Prowse supposedly leaking the reveal to some publication? Prowse has always denied it , but Lucas/Lucasfilm didn't believe him. Prowse said working on Return of the Jedi was an awful experience for him as result. They didn't trust him on Episode 6 (thinking he would spoil the ending again), so they shot the final scene between Vader/Luke in a different location using Sebastian Shaw instead. They also denied him access to official Star Wars conventions for decades. huh, interesting, but this is likely a myth?
According to the Empire commentary & docu Prowse (like all the others) did not know about the real twist. On set Prowse's dialogue said in the reveal scene: "No, Obi Wan killed your father".
He only realized the final line during the premier, and he turned to Kershner saying sth like: You should have told me, I would have played it differently if I had known." Thats how Kershner tells it, I remember.
Anyway, seems like there was a lot of set drama in the OT, beginning with the droids. I read that Prowse bullied Lucas personally for several things (like money and more presence) so Lucas felt threatened and imposed some injunctive relieve ban over Prowse.
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 7, 2020 12:48:54 GMT
Uh, folks: the novelization of the film came out a full month before the movie itself. No one was making any effort to hide the "surprise".
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Post by truecristian on Jan 7, 2020 12:52:55 GMT
Uh, folks: the novelization of the film came out a full month before the movie itself. No one was making any effort to hide the "surprise". Lordship Faustus why you believe it
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 7, 2020 12:57:36 GMT
Uh, folks: the novelization of the film came out a full month before the movie itself. No one was making any effort to hide the "surprise". Lordship Faustus why you believe it I have no idea what you are trying to say. I read the damn book myself along with all my friends before we saw the movie. No one was surprised. Book came out in April, movie came out in May.
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Post by truecristian on Jan 7, 2020 13:39:52 GMT
Lordship Faustus why you believe it I have no idea what you are trying to say. I read the damn book myself along with all my friends before we saw the movie. No one was surprised. Book came out in April, movie came out in May. Lordship If asked a question to which you do not know the answer, you could say, 'I have no idea'. 'I have' is in the present tense, so you are saying in effect, 'I do not know at this present time'
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 7, 2020 13:43:15 GMT
Lordship If asked a question to which you do not know the answer, you could say, 'I have no idea'. 'I have' is in the present tense, so you are saying in effect, 'I do not know at this present time' When asking a question, one should try to do so by composing a coherent sentence in the language one has chosen to communicate with. Give it a try sometime.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 7, 2020 14:10:02 GMT
The final confrontation of Deckard and Roy in Blade Runner has a unique feel to it that I haven't seen before or since. The viewer realizes along with the protagonist that Deckard was in the wrong the entire film. The 'villain' saves the hero's life when he had means, motive and opportunity to just let him die. The replicant literally shows Deckard what it is to be human in his dying moments instead of taking revenge on him. It's the ultimate gut punch.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 7, 2020 14:11:17 GMT
Lordship If asked a question to which you do not know the answer, you could say, 'I have no idea'. 'I have' is in the present tense, so you are saying in effect, 'I do not know at this present time' When asking a question, one should try to do so by composing a coherent sentence in the language one has chosen to communicate with. Give it a try sometime. Cut him some slack, he's used to speaking Aramaic.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 7, 2020 15:50:41 GMT
huh, interesting, but this is likely a myth?
According to the Empire commentary & docu Prowse (like all the others) did not know about the real twist. On set Prowse's dialogue said in the reveal scene: "No, Obi Wan killed your father".
He only realized the final line during the premier, and he turned to Kershner saying sth like: You should have told me, I would have played it differently if I had known." Thats how Kershner tells it, I remember.
Anyway, seems like there was a lot of set drama in the OT, beginning with the droids. I read that Prowse bullied Lucas personally for several things (like money and more presence) so Lucas felt threatened and imposed some injunctive relieve ban over Prowse.
Well, it's a bit of a "he said, he said" scenario, I suppose. According to the documentary, I Am Your Father (2015), David Prowse said he was banned from ALL Lucasfilm events for supposedly participating in an unapproved interview with a media outlet way back when. Apparently Prowse gave away the reveal for Episode 5. Prowse says he doesn't even remember doing the interview (they show the published article in the interview though). He also claims he didn't know the ending because he was given the line you stated about Obi-Wan killing Luke's father. He insists the leaker was someone else. In the same documentary, Robert Watts (and I think Gary Kurtz if I remember right...it's been awhile so I'm a little hazy) claimed otherwise. Looking annoyed by the topic, Watts said Prowse was angry about not being told ahead of time George Lucas wasn't planning to use Prowse's voice as Darth Vader. Prowse didn't find out they used another actor until he was in the theater watching Episode 4 for the first time and heard James Earl Jones' voice come out of the suit. Prowse was obviously put off by this. According to Watts, Prowse then lashed out by spoiling the movie in the interview as a way to stick it to George Lucas. Watts practically rolls his eyes at Prowse's claims he was innocent of any wrongdoing. Watts then elaborated that they didn't trust Prowse after making Episode 5. They set it up so while they were making Return of the Jedi, they had Prowse shooting one part of the movie in the Vader suit, while on another sound stage they shot the scene with Luke/Vader in the throne room. Lucas wanted to make sure that Prowse couldn't possibly know the ending, so he couldn't spoil it. Prowse (like I said in my past posting) said working on Episode 6 was an awful experience due to all this drama. He also admitted (like you stated) that he didn't get paid very much due to Hollywood accounting, and he believes he's owed more compensation than he received. Just to be clear: you're referencing the issues between Anthony Daniels and Kenny Baker, right?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 7, 2020 17:31:11 GMT
huh, interesting, but this is likely a myth?
According to the Empire commentary & docu Prowse (like all the others) did not know about the real twist. On set Prowse's dialogue said in the reveal scene: "No, Obi Wan killed your father".
He only realized the final line during the premier, and he turned to Kershner saying sth like: You should have told me, I would have played it differently if I had known." Thats how Kershner tells it, I remember.
Anyway, seems like there was a lot of set drama in the OT, beginning with the droids. I read that Prowse bullied Lucas personally for several things (like money and more presence) so Lucas felt threatened and imposed some injunctive relieve ban over Prowse.
Well, it's a bit of a "he said, he said" scenario, I suppose. According to the documentary, I Am Your Father (2015), David Prowse said he was banned from ALL Lucasfilm events for supposedly participating in an unapproved interview with a media outlet way back when. Apparently Prowse gave away the reveal for Episode 5. Prowse says he doesn't even remember doing the interview (they show the published article in the interview though). He also claims he didn't know the ending because he was given the line you stated about Obi-Wan killing Luke's father. He insists the leaker was someone else. In the same documentary, Robert Watts (and I think Gary Kurtz if I remember right...it's been awhile so I'm a little hazy) claimed otherwise. Looking annoyed by the topic, Watts said Prowse was angry about not being told ahead of time George Lucas wasn't planning to use Prowse's voice as Darth Vader. Prowse didn't find out they used another actor until he was in the theater watching Episode 4 for the first time and heard James Earl Jones' voice come out of the suit. Prowse was obviously put off by this. According to Watts, Prowse then lashed out by spoiling the movie in the interview as a way to stick it to George Lucas. Watts practically rolls his eyes at Prowse's claims he was innocent of any wrongdoing. Watts then elaborated that they didn't trust Prowse after making Episode 5. They set it up so while they were making Return of the Jedi, they had Prowse shooting one part of the movie in the Vader suit, while on another sound stage they shot the scene with Luke/Vader in the throne room. Lucas wanted to make sure that Prowse couldn't possibly know the ending, so he couldn't spoil it. Prowse (like I said in my past posting) said working on Episode 6 was an awful experience due to all this drama. He also admitted (like you stated) that he didn't get paid very much due to Hollywood accounting, and he believes he's owed more compensation than he received. interesting, seems like the real war happened behind the scenes; surprised they rehired the guy, he seems not to be entirely stable. yes, another match not made in heaven it seems.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 7, 2020 17:41:30 GMT
Are you talking about the whole story involving David Prowse supposedly leaking the reveal to some publication? Prowse has always denied it , but Lucas/Lucasfilm didn't believe him. Prowse said working on Return of the Jedi was an awful experience for him as result. They didn't trust him on Episode 6 (thinking he would spoil the ending again), so they shot the final scene between Vader/Luke in a different location using Sebastian Shaw instead. They also denied him access to official Star Wars conventions for decades. huh, interesting, but this is likely a myth?
According to the Empire commentary & docu Prowse (like all the others) did not know about the real twist. On set Prowse's dialogue said in the reveal scene: "No, Obi Wan killed your father".
He only realized the final line during the premier, and he turned to Kershner saying sth like: You should have told me, I would have played it differently if I had known." Thats how Kershner tells it, I remember.
Anyway, seems like there was a lot of set drama in the OT, beginning with the droids. I read that Prowse bullied Lucas personally for several things (like money and more presence) so Lucas felt threatened and imposed some injunctive relieve ban over Prowse.
This is an odd scenario as Hamill is pretty insistent that only he, Lucas, and Kirshner knew this at the time. That said, I'm more inclined to believe the Lucasfilm side of things as Lucas is known for being generous with all the cast. Prowse must have done something for Lucas to take those actions with him as it is uncharacteristic of George to do so....
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 7, 2020 18:21:12 GMT
This is an odd scenario as Hamill is pretty insistent that only he, Lucas, and Kirshner knew this at the time. It seems bizarre to me that any efforts were made at all to make the reveal such a big secret when, as I posted earlier, the novel was released a full month before the film, spoiling everything. Maybe as filmmakers they were completely out of synch with the marketing team and didn't realize this would happen. That's the only way I can make sense of it.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 7, 2020 18:36:26 GMT
This is an odd scenario as Hamill is pretty insistent that only he, Lucas, and Kirshner knew this at the time. It seems bizarre to me that any efforts were made at all to make the reveal such a big secret when, as I posted earlier, the novel was released a full month before the film, spoiling everything. Maybe as filmmakers they were completely out of synch with the marketing team and didn't realize this would happen. That's the only way I can make sense of it. It was a different world before the internet. The news would leak to hardcore fans, but wouldn't spread like wildfire. The twist still surprised plenty of viewers.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 7, 2020 18:40:46 GMT
This is an odd scenario as Hamill is pretty insistent that only he, Lucas, and Kirshner knew this at the time.That said, I'm more inclined to believe the Lucasfilm side of things as Lucas is known for being generous with all the cast. Prowse must have done something for Lucas to take those actions with him as it is uncharacteristic of George to do so.... It is. I've heard that many times before too.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 9, 2020 7:18:16 GMT
I believe Prowse did an interview for Little Shoppe of Horrors where he speculated about Darth Vader's origin and may have guessed it. 1977 or 78. He did say that Vader was the biggest character in Star Wars and HE WAS RIGHT. He was the biggest draw. Hamill allegedly didn't get along with Prowse-I don't know if this is verified but he said Prowse would strut around in the costume and that he felt Bob Anderson was truly Darth Vader. Christopher Reeve and Prowse also supposedly had a falling out after the latter trained him for Superman. The funny anecdote Prowse told about ROTJ was that he wasn't given much to do in the film and the scene where the Emperor is picked up was to be done by Bob Anderson but they couldnt get it to work (with wires etc) so finally Prowse did it one take, picking up McDiarmid with one hand no problem.
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