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Post by femalefan on Feb 7, 2017 3:03:09 GMT
A Faith or Willow spinoff would have been interesting.
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NileQT87
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 7, 2017 5:36:30 GMT
Hey, I didn't just post Bangel fanvids. I only posted ONE! The rest were full cast, Angel/Wesley, Fanged Four (Dangel + Spru) and Angel and/or Angelus solo.
Believe it or not, I have some other favorite pairings and 'ships. robinsrevenge, starryeyesxx1, lucystonersix. Afterthebattle, Yatta13694, Sonia Joie, 1SnoWhiteQueen1, ntertanedangel, Rachel Wasserman, etc... are all vidders I really recommend. And then there are all the old classics by morbidmuch, Sassy Kitten, thedothatgirl, etc... I even made a few back in the day (5 of them, all to Elvis songs), though YouTube threw a fit and blocked 3 of them.
Of all the proposed spin-offs, Ripper would have been the most different/unique (also given that it'd have been an all-British production) and Faith would have been the most obvious, though perhaps slightly a rehash in being a redemption story.
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TheSowIsMine
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Post by TheSowIsMine on Feb 7, 2017 12:08:54 GMT
and Faith would have been the most obvious, though perhaps slightly a rehash in being a redemption story. Her redemption arc was already done wonderfully on Angel. I really loved the Faith episodes on Angel.
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Blue
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Post by Blue on Feb 8, 2017 1:42:18 GMT
....So I'm taking that the comics were not well-received
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Feb 8, 2017 2:51:22 GMT
nileqt87, I know you're not just a Bangel person. I just stated that I'm not particularly a fan. I have a list of 'verse videos myself. Many humourous. Like these:
and we like a lot of the same vidders. Sorry if I offended, didn't mean to.
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NileQT87
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 8, 2017 5:54:02 GMT
I wasn't really offended, but I thought that people were assuming I was spamming Bangel, when literally only one of my videos was (trust me, I have many, but I also have many that aren't even my main pairings or characters).
And I'm well acquainted with those comedy fanvids! I remember when the last one was a download from a website and there was a whole Buffyverse site dedicated just to finding fanvids on everyone's personal sites. LMAO. Oh, dear Lord, I've been in this fandom for a long time. I have to have a folder full of fanfiction links because the fandom is older than when everyone went over to FF.net and AO3 and stopped building personal webpages (and about a quarter of those links are via the Wayback Machine--Geocities, I'm looking at you).
Collecting everyone's vids is something of a hobby of mine, so while we're waiting for a forum, I thought it might amuse somebody to share some favorites.
Here are a few comedy masterpieces I love:
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Blue
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Post by Blue on Feb 8, 2017 8:22:03 GMT
I like all the original monsters and lore the show came up with.
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TheSowIsMine
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Post by TheSowIsMine on Feb 8, 2017 10:09:01 GMT
....So I'm taking that the comics were not well-received I was never compelled to read them.
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Blue
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Post by Blue on Feb 8, 2017 10:12:58 GMT
....So I'm taking that the comics were not well-received The comics are very flawed and are overly complicated storyline-wise due to licensing drama. I personally dislike the initial story they did with the comics (for both Buffy and Angel), but it has since scaled-down to something that sort of resembles the TV show. It's still not perfect, but it keeps the characters alive somewhat.
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Feb 9, 2017 2:22:09 GMT
Season 8 was pretty horrible. Almost like everything that everybody ever imagined happened. Season 10 is much better - not so unrealistic. I haven't started 11 yet (or finished 10 really) because I only read them in the big compilation books. Waiting for season 10 volume 5.
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Blue
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Post by Blue on Feb 9, 2017 5:41:31 GMT
Season 8 was pretty horrible. Almost like everything that everybody ever imagined happened. Season 10 is much better - not so unrealistic. I haven't started 11 yet (or finished 10 really) because I only read them in the big compilation books. Waiting for season 10 volume 5. I'm still reading Season 10.
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juicebox07
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Post by juicebox07 on Feb 9, 2017 7:00:57 GMT
....So I'm taking that the comics were not well-received I was never compelled to read them. Me either. As far as I'm concerned, the show ended on a good note and I'm totally uninterested in the comics. Plus, it would never be the same as the show and actually watching the characters on screen.
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NileQT87
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 9, 2017 7:54:26 GMT
The comics are hideous (especially the much-hated, completely OOC season 8). The only comics I can stomach are Angel: After the Fall (the conclusion is legitimately beautiful) and Angel & Faith season 9 (Angel resurrecting Giles and saving him from Eyghon was about the only good arc written by the Dark Horse team, but it is flawed in that it is sitting on actions by Angel that still haven't been adequately explained as how that was ever in character). Everything else is dreck.
I actually don't like any of the so-called 'canon' BtVS comics. Many have taken to ignoring their existence, because you literally can't explain some of the OOC things done in season 8, because they completely contradict years of the show. Some of the BtVS season 8 writers apparently even admitted to having never seen any of AtS and Joss himself called the disaster at the end of the season "fanfiction" made up by a guest writer (the whole seed thing). Angel got completely character assassinated to the point of being unrecognizable as the same character seen for 8 years. Buffy was also made into a bank robber (really) abusing a lesbian subordinate's feelings and then pretty much reaffirming that she's straight (Joss also ran to the press for the fawning adulation of having Buffy have an OOC lesbian fling). There are just so many WTF moments there. Season 9 had the aforementioned abortion PSA that completely ignores Buffy's previous comments on the subject of motherhood and their context (see Bad Eggs and The Prom) for the sake of cheap political pandering.
IDW might have dropped the ball on the Angel series post-AtF, but at least they seemed to legitimately love all the characters. Connor actually turned out to be one of the best things in AtF! Even people who used to hate the character including the author had to concede that. The father/son relationship was beautiful, as was the lovely stuff with ghost!Wesley under the perpetuity clause. There were some major shocking but amazing plot twists regarding the Shanshu, Gunn and Connor (if you've read it, you know the ones). IDW kept the AtS comics going years after the show ended and treated the property as one of their proudest, while Dark Horse actually had a big gap where they stopped with the end of the show until Joss stepped in years later. Dark Horse likes to pretend that none of the AtS characters exist other than Angel (and he's put down on constantly because the Spuffy 'shippers are loud) and now Fred/Illyria belatedly. There was one arc when Angel's team made an appearance (going to Quor'toth with Connor, which was a highlight for me) and undead!Lilah made an appearance, but they're otherwise totally M.I.A. 99% of the time. Dark Horse seems to want to pretend that AtS didn't happen and Angel has no old friends or family outside of Faith and Fred/Illyria (only recently), though Drusilla pops up a lot. The Fang Gang are sorely missed. Dark Horse treats AtS and Angel like a redheaded bastard stepchild, while IDW gave page space to all sorts of AtS characters.
The tie-in comics (which were corny early on, but got pretty good later) and books (incredibly refreshing to have everyone in character!) were honestly more in character than anything in the BtVS season 8+ line. The writers still bothered to write actual fantasy/supernatural/horror plots and not just the soap parts (properly balancing the two), while often putting in the sorts of moments that you honestly wish were in the show. Well, the canon comics are heavy on the soap with a lot of overboard comedy courtesy of a whole lot of Andrew (the little twerp wears thin and is treated as an endless joke) and Harmony. It also doesn't help that what should be MAJOR revelations are just brushed away as meaningless, such as Buffy finding out about Connor (happened off-screen, apparently) or what the hell happened between the end of AtF and Twilight (yeah, they still haven't explained that) and where the Fang Gang or, you know, Angel's SON was during all that.
But yeah, this is one of the reasons I don't post anymore on any of the major Jossverse forums (there are several). The IMDb board was the only place left practically that was more interested in discussing the actual show than the comic issues (pretty unanimous opinion over there that they should be mostly ignored) and it was more pleasant because of it. The shows are what we love. Because of season 8, there was a mass-exodus of Angel, AtS and Bangel fans out of the fandom, as they were pretty much kicked off and bullied away from all the major forums (I'm not kidding, it was really bad). It's pretty much only a few hanger-on Spuffy fans (and they don't even sound thrilled for the most part, given that Spike is written as needy/insecure and Buffy is written as directionless). Fans of the Scoobies have similar complaints about how it's just Spuffy wish-fulfillment and the rest of the Scoobies might as well not exist anymore either. Well, they show up more often than the Fang Gang. ::sigh::
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Blue
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Post by Blue on Feb 9, 2017 8:09:58 GMT
The comics are hideous (especially the much-hated, completely OOC season 8). The only comics I can stomach are Angel: After the Fall (the conclusion is legitimately beautiful) and Angel & Faith season 9 (Angel resurrecting Giles and saving him from Eyghon was about the only good arc written by the Dark Horse team, but it is flawed in that it is sitting on actions by Angel that still haven't been adequately explained as how that was ever in character). Everything else is dreck. I actually don't like any of the so-called 'canon' BtVS comics. Many have taken to ignoring their existence, because you literally can't explain some of the OOC things done in season 8, because they completely contradict years of the show. Some of the BtVS season 8 writers apparently even admitted to having never seen any of AtS and Joss himself called the disaster at the end of the season "fanfiction" made up by a guest writer (the whole seed thing). Angel got completely character assassinated to the point of being unrecognizable as the same character seen for 8 years. Buffy was also made into a bank robber (really) abusing a lesbian subordinate's feelings and then pretty much reaffirming that she's straight (Joss also ran to the press for the fawning adulation of having Buffy have an OOC lesbian fling). There are just so many WTF moments there. Season 9 had the aforementioned abortion PSA that completely ignores Buffy's previous comments on the subject of motherhood and their context (see Bad Eggs and The Prom) for the sake of cheap political pandering. IDW might have dropped the ball on the Angel series post-AtF, but at least they seemed to legitimately love all the characters. Connor actually turned out to be one of the best things in AtF! Even people who used to hate the character including the author had to concede that. The father/son relationship was beautiful, as was the lovely stuff with ghost!Wesley under the perpetuity clause. There were some major shocking but amazing plot twists regarding the Shanshu, Gunn and Connor (if you've read it, you know the ones). IDW kept the AtS comics going years after the show ended and treated the property as one of their proudest, while Dark Horse actually had a big gap where they stopped with the end of the show until Joss stepped in years later. Dark Horse likes to pretend that none of the AtS characters exist other than Angel (and he's put down on constantly because the Spuffy 'shippers are loud) and now Fred/Illyria belatedly. There was one arc when Angel's team made an appearance (going to Quor'toth with Connor, which was a highlight for me) and undead!Lilah made an appearance, but they're otherwise totally M.I.A. 99% of the time. Dark Horse seems to want to pretend that AtS didn't happen and Angel has no old friends or family outside of Faith and Fred/Illyria (only recently), though Drusilla pops up a lot. The Fang Gang are sorely missed. Dark Horse treats AtS and Angel like a redheaded bastard stepchild, while IDW gave page space to all sorts of AtS characters. The tie-in comics (which were corny early on, but got pretty good later) and books (incredibly refreshing to have everyone in character!) were honestly more in character than anything in the BtVS season 8+ line. The writers still bothered to write actual fantasy/supernatural/horror plots and not just the soap parts (properly balancing the two), while often putting in the sorts of moments that you honestly wish were in the show. Well, the canon comics are heavy on the soap with a lot of overboard comedy courtesy of a whole lot of Andrew (the little twerp wears thin and is treated as an endless joke) and Harmony. But yeah, this is one of the reasons I don't post anymore on any of the major Jossverse forums (there are several). The IMDb board was the only place left practically that was more interested in discussing the actual show than the comic issues (pretty unanimous opinion over there that they should be mostly ignored) and it was more pleasant because of it. The shows are what we love. Because of season 8, there was a mass-exodus of Angel, AtS and Bangel fans out of the fandom, as they were pretty much kicked off and bullied away from all the major forums (I'm not kidding, it was really bad). It's pretty much only a few hanger-on Spuffy fans (and they don't even sound thrilled for the most part, given that Spike is written as needy/insecure and Buffy is written as directionless). Fans of the Scoobies have similar complaints about how it's just Spuffy wish-fulfillment and the rest of the Scoobies might as well not exist anymore either. Well, they show up more often than the Fang Gang. ::sigh:: I used to be part of a forum called SlayAlive. I liked the people there, but a LOT of folks left as the focus shifted to the comics. I admire Dark Horse for popularizing official comic continuations of TV shows, but Season 8 was such a terrible project.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 9:02:09 GMT
Thank you to everyone in this thread who posted the fan-created videos. I hadn't seen most of them and they were a lot of fun to watch. A thought occurred to me: Is it out of the realm of possibility that a rebooted BtVS tv series is being contemplated by the powers-that-be in Hollywood? After all, BtVS ended almost 14 years ago and we all know how Hollywood likes to reuse successful entertainment properties. If they do a reboot, how would you feel about an all new cast doing their version of the Buffyverse?
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TheSowIsMine
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Post by TheSowIsMine on Feb 9, 2017 9:17:17 GMT
I was never compelled to read them. Me either. As far as I'm concerned, the show ended on a good note and I'm totally uninterested in the comics. Plus, it would never be the same as the show and actually watching the characters on screen. Indeed. Part of the charm is the actors portraying the characters.
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NileQT87
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 9, 2017 16:01:41 GMT
Definitely. The actors definitely had a say in how some things would be interpreted based on their acting choices. And what an actor thinks their character is feeling is sometimes not what the writer intended.
With the shows, you had a few more layers of opinions from the networks, writers and actors so some of the dumber ideas such as in the comics would've had a better chance at getting jettisoned. Sometimes you can imagine that there is no way the writers would have written this in a television script, because you can just imagine the actors reading it and going WTF? (and some of those characterizations with inexplicable motives and no continuity to what was previously established are utterly bizarre--looking at you, season 8) or not being comfortable with it (especially if their character was getting dragged through the mud--Joss got pettier and more stubborn over time). There was already some of that during the shows that caused some clashes and those instincts became unchecked in the comic era. There were also writers like David Greenwalt and Tim Minear who actually loved and were majorly responsible for some of those characters whom Joss Whedon didn't give a toss about or never understood (by his own admission), which explains a lot. Those two voices are certainly a major part of what's missing from all of the AtS-related continuations, given that they were so influential and responsible for that part of the franchise.
Budget constraints vetoed a lot of the outlandish things that the comics went haywire with (things like Mecha-Dawnzilla would probably be unlikely), which meant more focus on character development instead of too many big wacky ideas. The shows were better because of all of those various restraints put on the writers and especially Joss, IMO. The WB was very much focused on the business side, wanting a property that would be as popular and approachable as possible, as well as keeping budget down.
The WB definitely chimed in on the somewhat disappointing BtVS season 1, renewing with the condition of more Angel/Bangel. Joss was reluctant to have a good vampire at all (intending vampires to only be allegories for life problems) and didn't want to hire David Boreanaz at all (the ladies in his office persuaded him there), intending on self-insert Xander as the love interest, but realizing that it would be the everyman getting the dreamgirl rather than the main heroine getting what she wanted. Greenwalt (hence his status as executive producer on AtS) invented the gypsy curse mythology + the Angel/Darla backstory to create a reason why there was an exception to the evil vampires (one thing that does separate Joss' vampires from many of the more recent franchises). The Angel appearances minus the opener (originally intended as a mysterious stranger who gives information and never see again--his filmed but cut scene in the unaired pilot had no interaction with Buffy whatsoever, but just a guy on a motorcycle who stakes a fleeing vampire) were noticeably written last with earlier draft scripts having scenes relating to the character jammed in.
Some major examples of performances making all the difference were the fact that the Anointed One was supposed to be the season 2 Big Bad (the kid had grown and wasn't that popular), then Drusilla was supposed to be the Big Bad after Spike was killed off (when the church organ fell on him) because Joss didn't believe David could pull off Angelus--only to finally get some respect after portraying Grace Newman in I Only Have Eyes for You which put the spinoff in the works, Angel was supposed to stay dead after being sent to hell and was only brought back for the spinoff, Mr. Trick was supposed to stick around longer until that role got usurped by Faith, Faith's death by suicide at the end of Consequences was jettisoned in favor of her joining the Mayor instead (originally intended for a role no bigger than Kendra's) and Maggie Walsh was supposed to be the season 4 Big Bad (actress unavailability). All of those things were changed from earlier ideas, largely based on actor performances and better ideas coming along.
Greenwalt also took Cordy under his wing later (asked for her to be brought to AtS in the first place and Charisma was promised she could return to BtVS if AtS failed) and Minear (who hated Cangel--DB didn't understand it either and it was jettisoned because it wasn't popular) became the big Dangel(us) writer and wrote a great many Angel and/or Darla-related episodes. Though a counterexample here is that Joss stopped Minear from killing off Darla (having come up with the pregnancy storyline) and made the whole Reprise ending a lot less rapey given that Darla is getting exactly what she wants.
Marti Noxon, of course, was queen of Spuffy and gets a lot of criticism for being the main showrunner of season 6 while Joss was off playing with Firefly (though she had earlier been often called upon for a lot of romance episodes and is noted by Joss for how Sprusilla was portrayed). She controversially put in her own personal experience of being an attempted rapist (with her being in the Spike position). James Marsters threatened to quit the show over that, not to mention getting really annoyed about all the nudity. SMG was having her own battles with Joss. She was not happy with the Parker plot, season 6 in general and the balcony sex scene. She went to him with concerns that Buffy was no longer a role model. SMG (huge Bangel and still a personal friend of DB's--the set had to be shut down twice during The Prom and I Will Remember You because she was distraught and begging the writers to change the latter's ending--you can even hear DB break character to comfort her with "Shh, Sarah, please.") was also concerned about DB leaving BtVS and about whether it would survive without him. Aly Hannigan got into some hot water for suggesting that SMG stopped caring about the show after season 3 (walked that back when the Spuffies went ballistic). In the very interview where SMG quit the show without telling her cast mates that they were out of a job (notably angering Aly), she definitely cites her dislike of season 6, as well as being exhausted. Joss never listened to SMG's concerns, but changed season 6 for his favorite (Aly), who wasn't happy about Willow's personality leading to evil!Willow and that's when it became a magic addiction storyline instead. Joss totally played favorites and it's notable who was and wasn't at his Shakespeare house readings, and who kept their work and personal lives separate. Nick Brendon, of course, was already becoming a problem because of his alcoholism by the later seasons (he's got some arrests and felonies for assault now and has only recently figured out he needs help). There was also stuff with Nick being told to stop working out because he was playing the dorky best friend and him getting upset about his lack of screen time (he and SMG suggested Bander for season 7, despite SMG having suggested Spuffy after Ruffy was such a failure, but not liking what was done with it). Joss also didn't want to hire Amber Benson because of her weight initially.
Then there is the notable case of Glenn Quinn's drug addiction causing so many problems leading to Doyle's earlier-than-planned death that the vision/PtB-hijacking storyline was moved over to Cordy. That Glenn overdosed on heroin also stopped the idea that he'd come back as the AtS season 4 Big Bad (one of the ideas mulled about). And of course, Joss had that massive falling out with Charisma Carpenter over both her miscarriage (the 3-episode absence in season 3 where she was asked to get her act together--and there are other episodes where she's scarce) and failing to notify the writers of her season 4 pregnancy until she was showing, causing the rewrite that caused the need for Jasmine to take on a different body (the original plan was for Angel to have to kill Cordy--no coma). Charisma also was lied to when she was reassured that Cordy wouldn't be killed off in You're Welcome, but the phone call death notification scene was filmed without her knowledge. Joss didn't even want to bring Charisma back at all because of the bad blood between them, but SMG's two planned appearances in AtS season 5 didn't work out because her aunt died and then she was in Japan filming The Grudge.
The WB were also unfortunately responsible for AtS season 5 being less serialized in response to AtS season 4 and they ordered increased comedy episodes, specifically the Harmony centric. You'll note that the second half of that season is a lot stronger when they threw away that edict (filming Underneath was when they learned of the cancellation). Alas, Joss getting a big self-important head, being terrible at making friends with bosses and asking for the early renewal was exactly what got AtS cancelled, along with a really dumb head of the WB (neither the boss or the channel lasted much longer). And it was all for naught, because the planned cheaper replacement for AtS (a Dark Shadows reboot) had an apparently horrible pilot that didn't get picked up anyway.
The point is, there were a lot of voices in the makings of the shows that weren't Joss and circumstances and other ideas led to very different outcomes. The comics don't have these kinds of developments.
Anyway... Some more fanvids, since some have enjoyed them.
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Post by Avenging Angel on Feb 9, 2017 18:18:44 GMT
Wow, where to start? First of all, hiya to the fandom and thank you for creating this thread. I have been a fan of Buffy/Angel for as long as I can remember. It seems like a lifetime away when I was itching to catch the new episodes. Because the internet, for lack of a better word, was still working it's way around the globe, and dial up was still a common use, this kind of behind the scenes tell all would have never been known had technology not progressed to what it is now.
To be honest, I feel saddened by the drama. Of course there was drama. These were 20 and 30 somethings on the biggest shows on this boutique network. Everything was a big deal and time was money. No different to how it is right now, shows these days that came after had tried to replicate the magic they had but fail with cheap gimmicks and lazy story telling. That seems to be a recurring theme with any show on The CW. Supernatural and The Vampire Diaries tried to be so-called "convenient replacements" but since the network had been changed, the quality in writing had since declined and vampire/supernatural genre shows were never the same again. I even brought this up at the previous boards throwing in Teen Wolf as further proof to back up the statement.
Would it work again? It's a complex question but the answer might just be a tad simple: not really. Shows now focus way too much on the exterior, the clothes, the hair, the makeup, the sex. These shows now that try to emulate what Buffy/Angel had, fail each time because of one strong difference: shipping/cheap drama over character development. Shows like True Blood were camp and enjoyable to watch no doubt but it never went anywhere. No endgame to conclude. Allan Ball is Joss Whedon 2.0. Sooric (Sookie x Eric) and Bookie (Sookie x Bill) were the Spuffy and Bangel of the series. The reason why these fun shows fail is because they veer away from telling a great story. The show tried to take itself insanely too seriously and that was it's downfall. Allan played his favorites with Anna and Stephen being a married couple just to use it to prolong Bookie until the last episode we've been waiting for.
A retelling of Buffy and Angel just wouldn't work in this generation and time. The reason why is social media hands down and the generation that dominates these platforms. Twitter and and especially Tumblr heavily promoted Sups/TVD and those shows are all about the attractiveness of the actors playing those roles. When you break the shows down on the screenplay and performances alone, it has some serious issues that can't be recovered. I would watch a reboot if they ever did one, but it's safe to leave those shows in the time they were meant to be. Teenagers don't look up to regular woman like they used and that if anything else was Buffy's prominent appeal. They wanna be superstars, they wanna be Taylor Swift and Selena Gomez and they don't care for any development as a form of origins to humanize today's heroin. All and all: they idolize popular girls, people that someone like Buffy would never be seen next to. Basically they would need to cast a Cordelia-like character in the reboot to actually make the character relatable to teens now. It's just not the same anymore.
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Feb 10, 2017 3:44:50 GMT
Ok, one more video. This one is different and I'd love to make one for future classroom use!
Anybody know how to do this?
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NileQT87
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 10, 2017 10:32:07 GMT
Yeah, I've been feeling that generation gap hard ever since I joined Tumblr (for Once Upon a Time) and saw the '90s-'00s babies run amok (my first run in with the SJW crowd). I think I've been in the Jossverse fandom and a lot of fandoms with older members for so long that I was completely unaware of this bunch until really late. I was also marathoning BtVS and AtS together with a friend who was born in 1995 and she would constantly be commenting on technology things that I didn't even think about as being non-existent in today's world (things like phone books and carbon paper--not to mention floppy discs, beepers, the lack of everyone with a smart phone, old computers and cord/flip-phones!). I probably should avoid showing the BtVS 1-800-Collect commercials (with phone booths!), because I'd probably have to explain what that was. LMAO.
Occasionally, the IMDb boards would get a SJW visitor pointing out all the problematic things (this girl really had it in for the flashbacks in Are You Now, or Have You Ever Been?). The Tumblr feminists have pretty much made a martyr out of Cordy (dying for a man!) and Charisma (due to the Joss situation). There are actually a lot of things now in the shows that the current crop of indoctrinated youth are unlikely to look favorably upon (the racial and sexual identity quotas aren't high enough and they complain loudly about it). Even the casting decisions (especially concerning masculine men) seem dated to the tastes of a different generation. When something was made isn't good enough for them. BtVS/AtS belong to a very different generation. Obviously, it's a heavily Gen-X era show (with Baby Boomer writers), but as one of the older-end Gen-Y crowd (1987), but one who lives in a bit of a bubble with much older parents, I still recognize that world (both technologically and socially speaking) with the '90s school culture (pre-Columbine/Zero Tolerance Policy with medieval weapons and guns on campus!) and the fact that characters can make sometimes VERY unPC comments (Cordy, Spike, Angelus, etc... make quite a few) without the writers having expected the audience to blow a gasket.
And yeah, I agree that a lot of shows don't have near the depth of storytelling and character work. Though the 'shipper wars were plenty raging even back in BtVS/AtS times, but the writers were ballsy enough to kill characters that were supposed to be untouchable (Tara being the most controversial to a certain audience segment--and they did blow a gasket back in the day, causing Joss to discuss why being told he can't kill a character makes them unequal in treatment with all the other characters he kills to further plotlines). And for the most part, the "what you need, not what you want" (basically, the writers keeping the integrity of their plots instead of bending to every loud minority fandom pressure) way of writing was the winning formula. Unfortunately, the comics HAVE been affected by trying to cater to 'shipper factions in a way that the shows mostly avoided (and treated all sides fairly). The fact that Buffy ended her show alone with neither vampire is telling.
Mutant Enemy wasn't big on wish-fulfillment plotlines where characters are constantly handed everything the audience thinks they deserve (it's now the entitlement generation) and characters who veer towards being perfect little SJW-approved angels who don't ever say controversial, mean or unPC things. Characters definitely make mistakes and act like real flawed people with the sorts of things they say and how they react for the most part. This very much dates the show to a different television-making environment.
Here's something I've always loved as a thematic thing in BtVS and AtS: alleys and rain/water are intentional constants in Angel's storyline.
Liam was sired in an alley. Several flashbacks have victims in alleys like Daniel on Christmas, Darla's streetwalker and Drusilla siring William (Angelus also later had a few alley showings with werewolf!Oz and spitting out Gage's blood). Angel couldn't feed from a Romanian woman in an alley right after getting his soul back. Angel hid the missionary family from Darla in an alley, which Dru sensed (Fool for Love-only viewers wouldn't know what Dru sensed or why Angel was with them post-ensoulment, with Darla 2x07 answering the questions in the next hour). Whistler found Angel in an alley trying to catch a rat. Buffy met Angel by kicking him down in an alley. Angel lost his soul in a rainy alley (Buffy and Angel had previously been in the ocean and ran through the rain). Angel saves girls in an alley in the opening scene of his show, while also struggling with temptation at the sight of blood (a deleted scene was censored where Angel tasted Tina's blood, jerked his fingers away and scrubbed his hands--the removal of this leaves a plothole with the opener and Doyle's comments about Buffy's blood leaving a bit of a craving). Angel saved Faith in a rainy alley. Syphilitic Darla attempts to get the 1992 mullet vampire to sire her in an alley and she reminds Angel where he was sired. Angel's epiphany in the rain echoed Innocence (Darla even quotes Buffy, saying "Was it me? Was I not good?", not unlike both saying "Close your eyes."). Darla died (she notes the alley theme) and Connor was born in the rainy alley behind Caritas (and of course, Holtz spares father and son--also note Fred holding Angel's jacket over her head, evoking major Virgin Mary imagery with the impossible conception/birth, which Wesley and Lilah have a conversation about later). The Beast arose in the same alley and started a rain of fire, which was occurring when Jasmine was conceived. Faith and Angelus' Orpheus mindwalk went into Angel's rat-eating past in an alley, which is where Angel and Angelus fought each other and Angel urged Faith to not give up. Angel's season 5 opener echoed the City of... opener with saving a girl in an alley, but with W&H intruding. AtS ended in a rainy alley facing the apocalypse.
Water is another thing that comes up a fair bit along with rain. Angel's watery coffin at the bottom of the ocean is a big one and Deep Down amps up the water imagery in the hallucinations. There are also the Buffy/Angel fight under the sprinklers in the mall and Angel saving Kate in the shower from her suicide attempt (and not having an invitation, making it another of his PtB miracles). Another thing to note is the fact that one of the ways to kill vampires is holy water.
Perhaps related to the fact that Angel's redemption storyline and his struggles with vampirism are a recovering alcoholic allegory (noted by Joss in the City of... commentary regarding the show opening in a bar with Angel pretending to be drunk--note that Liam was a drunkard)?
The Jossverse is always very strong when it comes to thematic imagery such as this.
This is a fanvid that is completely centered on all of the water imagery:
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