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Post by kls on Jan 21, 2020 0:24:48 GMT
If they aren't willing to turn themselves in to the police I don't see how they would be penitent. I agree with married priests and ordaining women (but I don't see why that would cut down on molesting kids). The 'solution' (?) to this problem is that ALL areas where children are cared for by adults, churches schools sporting clubs etc have a zero tolerance for molestation and apply mandatory reporting of any issues or strongly evidence based suspicion ( ie the child's welfare is paramount over an adult) THIS is where the Catholic Church went wrong in covering up the crimes to. cover the Institution of the Catholic Church and NOT putting child welfare ahead of priestly and Church welfare. I agree with this 100%
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Post by goz on Jan 21, 2020 0:27:31 GMT
The 'solution' (?) to this problem is that ALL areas where children are cared for by adults, churches schools sporting clubs etc have a zero tolerance for molestation and apply mandatory reporting of any issues or strongly evidence based suspicion ( ie the child's welfare is paramount over an adult) THIS is where the Catholic Church went wrong in covering up the crimes to. cover the Institution of the Catholic Church and NOT putting child welfare ahead of priestly and Church welfare. No body would confess if there was any question of lack of secrecy. True, which in fact invalidates the whole point of Catholic confession IMHO.
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Post by kls on Jan 21, 2020 0:30:06 GMT
No body would confess if there was any question of lack of secrecy. True, which in fact invalidates the whole point of Catholic confession IMHO. I think it's reasonable if there is a difference between sins and something that rises to the level of a crime.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 21, 2020 0:31:04 GMT
No body would confess if there was any question of lack of secrecy. True, which in fact invalidates the whole point of Catholic confession IMHO. I dont agree, I mean as discussed the point of confession is that you are actually supposed to be contrite and certainly a part of that would be that you give yourself over to the authorities so confession is not really about sorting out crime and punishing the guilty, confession is supposed to be a method of reconciling things with yourself, maybe an affair. You would not go if your thought people would get told about what you said.
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Post by goz on Jan 21, 2020 0:44:00 GMT
True, which in fact invalidates the whole point of Catholic confession IMHO. I dont agree, I mean as discussed the point of confession is that you are actually supposed to be contrite and certainly a part of that would be that you give yourself over to the authorities so confession is not really about sorting out crime and punishing the guilty, confession is supposed to be a method of reconciling things with yourself, maybe an affair. You would not go if your thought people would get told about what you said. How self indulgent. I either don't do the 'sin' and/or live with the consequences like the rest of us. You do a bad thing, there are usually bad consequences. Catholics need their hands held so they can repeat their 'sins'!
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Post by kls on Jan 21, 2020 0:50:17 GMT
I dont agree, I mean as discussed the point of confession is that you are actually supposed to be contrite and certainly a part of that would be that you give yourself over to the authorities so confession is not really about sorting out crime and punishing the guilty, confession is supposed to be a method of reconciling things with yourself, maybe an affair. You would not go if your thought people would get told about what you said. How self indulgent. I either don't do the 'sin' and/or live with the consequences like the rest of us. You do a bad thing, there are usually bad consequences. Catholics need their hands held so they can repeat their 'sins'! Jesus said 'Go and sin no more.'
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Post by gadreel on Jan 21, 2020 0:52:36 GMT
I dont agree, I mean as discussed the point of confession is that you are actually supposed to be contrite and certainly a part of that would be that you give yourself over to the authorities so confession is not really about sorting out crime and punishing the guilty, confession is supposed to be a method of reconciling things with yourself, maybe an affair. You would not go if your thought people would get told about what you said. How self indulgent. I either don't do the 'sin' and/or live with the consequences like the rest of us. You do a bad thing, there are usually bad consequences. No you missed my point. Just for a second ignore the criminal confessions. Lets say I hate my neighbour, I come to confession to confess that, the priest forgives my sins and I go about fixing the issue (you recall that part of actually wanting forgiveness is that you intend to make it right yeah). I would not go to the priest if I thought that he would tell anyone. No. The point of confession is that you wish to stop your sins and make amends for them. Yes I accept that this is not how it is done often, I was a satanist too when I was younger, but it is the intention. In other words yes the process of confession is broken, but it is not broken because the priest is not passing on information.
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Post by goz on Jan 21, 2020 0:55:32 GMT
How self indulgent. I either don't do the 'sin' and/or live with the consequences like the rest of us. You do a bad thing, there are usually bad consequences. Catholics need their hands held so they can repeat their 'sins'! Jesus said 'Go and sin no more.' … and yet that doesn't happen because of the concept of forgiveness and penance to pay for those sins...so you have a clean slate (permission) to go and do it again.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jan 21, 2020 22:24:39 GMT
So, in that context, what do you think should be done to address the problem of pedophile priests(1), and (2), get penitents to understand that confession means stopping the bad behavior? I am truly interested as to how a genuine Catholic feels about this, I'm not being confrontational. I'd say go and sin no more is a huge part of repentance. Maybe the biggest. And your thoughts on the bolded question?
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Post by kls on Jan 21, 2020 23:54:54 GMT
I'd say go and sin no more is a huge part of repentance. Maybe the biggest. And your thoughts on the bolded question? They should face the full penalty of the law and be turned in.
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Post by mslo79 on Jan 23, 2020 12:34:35 GMT
The seal of Confession cannot be broken. period. with that said, look at it this way... someone who confesses something of that sort likely wants to change their lives for the better. because someone who plans to keep on abusing children(and the like), won't even be in confessional in the first place. think about it  because at the end of the day... someone who sexually abuses children has went off the rails and is unlikely to repent. so for these types, I doubt they would be anywhere near a Confessional. because if one uses the law in a attempt to force Priest to say what's confessed to them, it will just lower peoples confidence in knowing what's said in the confessional won't be kept secret, which will drive people away from the Sacrament of Confession, which is a bad thing because it's the only ordinary way someone can be forgiven of serious sin and if someone dies in a state of mortal sin(serious sin) they end up in hell. senan90Why, is it because it's official teachings oppose the worlds lies that you happen to like? only someone who opposes the truth would say that as it's the church Jesus Christ Himself started with Peter (Matthew 16:18), who's basically the first Pope, and it went down through the generations til today as here is a list of Popes from Peter to date... www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htmFridayOnElmStreetOnly those of weak faith would stop being a Catholic over the actions of some corrupt people. because at the end of the day... the Catholic church is still the true Church of Jesus Christ (the Catholic church is started by Jesus Christ, all other denominations are started by man basically). so leaving that is a bad idea as a general rule as one lowers their chances of reaching Heaven. I would come back if I were you ; at least start off praying each day as I could say this about prayer... oxygen is to the body as prayer is to the soul. your body can't live without oxygen and your soul ain't going to be doing so well without regular prayer. paulslaughBecause many "Catholics" are largely Catholic in name only nowadays who just ignore the teachings of the church they don't like and rarely, if ever, pray etc and pretty much go with the flow of the world instead of sticking to the official teachings of the Catholic church on faith/morals, which is the truth of Jesus Christ. so it's not surprising these types don't go to Confession. so while I don't doubt Catholics who go to Confession are in the minority, I can't see it being 5%. but I would not be surprised if a lot of it boils down to those who believe in Transubstantiation vs those who don't as those who don't believe in The Real Presence of Jesus Christ in The Holy Eucharist, it probably won't be all that long before they pretty much stop going to church etc. and like I always say... regular prayer, as in daily prayer, is not optional, but required, if one is going to grow in holiness (you can't grow in holiness without regular prayer, it's impossible. as it's like Jesus Christ said, "Without Me, you can do nothing") as those who rarely or never pray it's going to be a matter of time before they stop going to church and pretty much go with the flow of the worlds wicked ways. so I think if you count anyone who claims to be Catholic, which many do who are largely Catholic in name only, I am sure those who go to confession are in the minority. but if you count those who actually believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in The Holy Eucharist, I am willing to bet the percentage who goes to Confession is MUCH higher. It's very unwise to never go to Confession as Jesus Christ gave power to those who run His church (i.e. Catholic church) to forgive sins (it's not that the Priest himself is forgiven ones sin, but Jesus Christ working through the Priest)... "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." - John 20:23 but obviously... one can't abuse the Sacrament of Confession as if one goes in there with no intention of repenting of their sin, they are just burying themselves further as it's pointless to even go if one has no intention of stopping their sins, especially serious sin(mortal sin) as I can basically say this about sin in general... mortal sin(serious sin) destroys ones relationship with God where as venial sin(mild sin) only wounds it. but assuming a person is truly in a state of mortal sin, the only ordinary way they can get back into a relationship with God is through the Sacrament of Confession and it restores sanctifying grace in ones soul, basically restores life to it, as without that a person is basically dead (at least their soul is, which is what really matters long term). there are extraordinary ways one can be forgiven, but it's a bad idea to rely on those as Confession is a much safer bet since one can be assured they are forgiven by God that way (assuming they are repenting(or at least genuinely trying to repent) of their serious sins at the least (which without daily prayer that won't end well since prayer gives us grace from God to help resist sin)). p.s. there are Eucharistic Miracles which further prove the Catholic churches teachings on the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in The Holy Eucharist. but those worldly/atheist types will conjure up any BS excuse to deny it, because they have no faith and can't see. they basically fit my St. Thomas Aquinas quote in my signature. |
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Post by kls on Jan 23, 2020 12:38:48 GMT
Being Catholic in particular isn't nearly as important to my belief/faith as being a Christian is.
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Post by goz on Jan 23, 2020 20:01:12 GMT
The seal of Confession cannot be broken. period. with that said, look at it this way... someone who confesses something of that sort likely wants to change their lives for the better. because someone who plans to keep on abusing children(and the like), won't even be in confessional in the first place. think about it because at the end of the day... someone who sexually abuses children has went off the rails and is unlikely to repent. so for these types, I doubt they would be anywhere near a Confessional. because if one uses the law in a attempt to force Priest to say what's confessed to them, it will just lower peoples confidence in knowing what's said in the confessional won't be kept secret, which will drive people away from the Sacrament of Confession, which is a bad thing because it's the only ordinary way someone can be forgiven of serious sin and if someone dies in a state of mortal sin(serious sin) they end up in hell. senan90 Why, is it because it's official teachings oppose the worlds lies that you happen to like? only someone who opposes the truth would say that as it's the church Jesus Christ Himself started with Peter (Matthew 16:18), who's basically the first Pope, and it went down through the generations til today as here is a list of Popes from Peter to date... www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htmFridayOnElmStreet Only those of weak faith would stop being a Catholic over the actions of some corrupt people. because at the end of the day... the Catholic church is still the true Church of Jesus Christ (the Catholic church is started by Jesus Christ, all other denominations are started by man basically). so leaving that is a bad idea as a general rule as one lowers their chances of reaching Heaven. I would come back if I were you ; at least start off praying each day as I could say this about prayer... oxygen is to the body as prayer is to the soul. your body can't live without oxygen and your soul ain't going to be doing so well without regular prayer. paulslaugh Because many "Catholics" are largely Catholic in name only nowadays who just ignore the teachings of the church they don't like and rarely, if ever, pray etc and pretty much go with the flow of the world instead of sticking to the official teachings of the Catholic church on faith/morals, which is the truth of Jesus Christ. so it's not surprising these types don't go to Confession. so while I don't doubt Catholics who go to Confession are in the minority, I can't see it being 5%. but I would not be surprised if a lot of it boils down to those who believe in Transubstantiation vs those who don't as those who don't believe in The Real Presence of Jesus Christ in The Holy Eucharist, it probably won't be all that long before they pretty much stop going to church etc. and like I always say... regular prayer, as in daily prayer, is not optional, but required, if one is going to grow in holiness (you can't grow in holiness without regular prayer, it's impossible. as it's like Jesus Christ said, "Without Me, you can do nothing") as those who rarely or never pray it's going to be a matter of time before they stop going to church and pretty much go with the flow of the worlds wicked ways. so I think if you count anyone who claims to be Catholic, which many do who are largely Catholic in name only, I am sure those who go to confession are in the minority. but if you count those who actually believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in The Holy Eucharist, I am willing to bet the percentage who goes to Confession is MUCH higher. It's very unwise to never go to Confession as Jesus Christ gave power to those who run His church (i.e. Catholic church) to forgive sins (it's not that the Priest himself is forgiven ones sin, but Jesus Christ working through the Priest)... "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." - John 20:23 but obviously... one can't abuse the Sacrament of Confession as if one goes in there with no intention of repenting of their sin, they are just burying themselves further as it's pointless to even go if one has no intention of stopping their sins, especially serious sin(mortal sin) as I can basically say this about sin in general... mortal sin(serious sin) destroys ones relationship with God where as venial sin(mild sin) only wounds it. but assuming a person is truly in a state of mortal sin, the only ordinary way they can get back into a relationship with God is through the Sacrament of Confession and it restores sanctifying grace in ones soul, basically restores life to it, as without that a person is basically dead (at least their soul is, which is what really matters long term). there are extraordinary ways one can be forgiven, but it's a bad idea to rely on those as Confession is a much safer bet since one can be assured they are forgiven by God that way (assuming they are repenting(or at least genuinely trying to repent) of their serious sins at the least (which without daily prayer that won't end well since prayer gives us grace from God to help resist sin)). p.s. there are Eucharistic Miracles which further prove the Catholic churches teachings on the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in The Holy Eucharist. but those worldly/atheist types will conjure up any BS excuse to deny it, because they have no faith and can't see. they basically fit my St. Thomas Aquinas quote in my signature. It can, it should be and progressively it is, for the benefit of all. There is no such thing as 'sin'. There is people behaving erroneously, badly and criminally. They should take responsibility for there own actions and any legal of moral repercussions in a society. What world lies? Is it because you call world lies things that the your crap religion disapproves of to have control over people? Things like contraception abortion divorce and sex before marriage? It may have been the first Christian Church, however there is no 'true' religion and there is no 'heaven' It is a lie. When we die we are dead -period. Prove otherwise. Fortunately many Catholics are realising how ridiculous these notions are and how hypocritically controlling the Catholic Church is and are giving up the nonsensical parts of being a Catholic. This can ONLY be a good thing. Transubstantiation is childlike archaic mumbo jumbo, medievally ridiculous and macabre. To be relevant AT ALL, the Catholic Church needs to reform and be truthful, non manipulative transparent and caring for it fewer remaining devotees than ever before. Listening to their 'sins' and forgiving them is NOT helping people live a better life if they don't take responsibility. MANY of those 'sins' are artificially designated such within the Church anyway for control purposes so it is a self perpetuating circle of ridiculousness which in the end led those paedophile priest to believe and as has proven, that they could get away with their behaviour…..FOR CENTURIES
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