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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 10, 2020 15:23:57 GMT
Yes , it wasn't bad was it , ck100 !
Just like Picard and Kirk in The Nexus (Generations 1994). Clever staging and dialogue.. Will Riker as he always does helping his best friend , the confused Jean-Luc , with his down-to-earth advice and kitchen metaphors . And his loving wife , Deanna , always willing to help those in need and trouble .
Soji , so much the descendant of Data , in look and way of thinking .
Elnor is confronted by his nemesis , the evil and cruel Narissa of the Zhat Vash .
Dr Jurati realising she's been used as a pawn , making the ultimate sacrifice .
And , who is the mysterious Captain Crandall ?
Eh, it felt like a filler episode to me; which considering how the short the season is already and how much they've dragged out the story so far, I don't think the nostalgia outweighed the lack of any appreciable plot advancement. For the sake of simplicity, regarding spoilers and everything, I posted more detailed thoughts on the episode (contianing spoilers) on a thread on the Star Trek board - imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/214479/picard-season-episode-nepenthe-spoilers
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Post by movieliker on Mar 14, 2020 12:04:27 GMT
Anybody watch episode 8 yet?
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Post by ck100 on Mar 14, 2020 13:17:04 GMT
Anybody watch episode 8 yet? I have. It was all right.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 14, 2020 13:20:50 GMT
Anybody watch episode 8 yet? I have. It was all right. Things are happening now. But I watched the last 15 -20 minutes while replying to texts on my phone.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 15, 2020 2:00:48 GMT
Anybody watch episode 8 yet? I have. It was all right. I would agree, it was just okay. From a certain perspective, it was "better" than the previous episode; in so much as episode 8 felt less like filler. I would even argue that in context, "Broken Pieces" made "Nepenthe" worse; because episode 8 felt like episode 7 never happened. It wasn't necessary. They could have just as easily taken Picard and Soji from the Borg cube straight to Rios' ship and save for a few minor adjustments, episode 7 would lift right out of the story. is pure nostalgic filler; and not even nostalgia done well, in my opinion. but even in comparison to the last episode, episode 8 still suffers from the same plodding storytelling as all the other episodes so far; and the explanation of the driving plot point was underwhelming at best. The idea of 7 being left few alternatives than to not only plug herself back into a collective for the first time in over a decade, but also effectively become a Borg queen, is an idea with a fair amount of potential, but they just sort of crammed that in to the episode without making good use of it. At least so far. I mean, come on, she takes control of the cube and reactivates all the dormant drones, only for them to get blown into space 5 seconds later. That's about as pointless as you can get. I imagine this could come back around during the last two episode of the season, but all things considered, they could have built up to that moment better; especially since the only other full episode to feature her this season was garbage. They could have used her reintroduction more productively, rather than shit on Icheb or make her a might morphin' space ranger or whatever. Looking back at the episodes so far, the use of Hugh was pointless and yet another novelty; especially when they were just going to kill him off. I'd argue it would have made more sense to save Hugh for some future story and make 7 the one overseeing the xB project; and when Soji and Picard need to escape, that's when 7 connects herself to buy them time. Either way, Elnor's still pretty pointless, but we can kind of agree that he's basically the Wesley of this series, right? You know, if Wesley carried a sword and was completely useless?
And I know TNG had its share of sit-around-a-table-for-exposition moments, but this episode had to be the most expositional exposition to ever be exposited around a table.... Talk about your anti-climax, not that it comes as any sort of surprise. So apparently the Romulans found this dodad that was "thousands of centuries" old, because why not; and it does a thing that drive 9 out of 10 people who come into contact with it crazy. Of the Romulans who initially experienced this phenomenon who supposedly didn't go crazy, they experienced something so disturbing about synthetic life forms (again, from hundreds of thousands of years ago) that they decided their society should never have synthetic life; and created an enduring secret organization within their existing secret organization, to fulfill this objective. But wait, there's more, because the super-duper secret society decided to infiltrate their long time space rival government - you know, the ones they've been at odds with for 200+ years, but haven't managed to execute a legitimately hostile move against them in about the same length of time - and they're going to enact a convoluted plot to convince them to turn on their synthetic life forms; even though they no longer have synthetics capable of independent thought. But instead of wondering how how they acted of their own accord during this attack, like any reasonably intelligent person would, they fell for the trap and banned synths.
Yeah, I'm thinking the ancient mind doodad makes 10 out of 10 people crazy; it's just that one of them acts out their crazy different from the other 9....
And lucky for Agnes that she wasn't one of 90% of people who receives those psychic flashes and starts hitting themselves in the face with a rock.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 15, 2020 11:07:46 GMT
I have. It was all right. I would agree, it was just okay. From a certain perspective, it was "better" than the previous episode; in so much as episode 8 felt less like filler. I would even argue that in context, "Broken Pieces" made "Nepenthe" worse; because episode 8 felt like episode 7 never happened. It wasn't necessary. They could have just as easily taken Picard and Soji from the Borg cube straight to Rios' ship and save for a few minor adjustments, episode 7 would lift right out of the story. is pure nostalgic filler; and not even nostalgia done well, in my opinion. but even in comparison to the last episode, episode 8 still suffers from the same plodding storytelling as all the other episodes so far; and the explanation of the driving plot point was underwhelming at best. The idea of 7 being left few alternatives than to not only plug herself back into a collective for the first time in over a decade, but also effectively become a Borg queen, is an idea with a fair amount of potential, but they just sort of crammed that in to the episode without making good use of it. At least so far. I mean, come on, she takes control of the cube and reactivates all the dormant drones, only for them to get blown into space 5 seconds later. That's about as pointless as you can get. I imagine this could come back around during the last two episode of the season, but all things considered, they could have built up to that moment better; especially since the only other full episode to feature her this season was garbage. They could have used her reintroduction more productively, rather than shit on Icheb or make her a might morphin' space ranger or whatever. Looking back at the episodes so far, the use of Hugh was pointless and yet another novelty; especially when they were just going to kill him off. I'd argue it would have made more sense to save Hugh for some future story and make 7 the one overseeing the xB project; and when Soji and Picard need to escape, that's when 7 connects herself to buy them time. Either way, Elnor's still pretty pointless, but we can kind of agree that he's basically the Wesley of this series, right? You know, if Wesley carried a sword and was completely useless?
And I know TNG had its share of sit-around-a-table-for-exposition moments, but this episode had to be the most expositional exposition to ever be exposited around a table.... Talk about your anti-climax, not that it comes as any sort of surprise. So apparently the Romulans found this dodad that was "thousands of centuries" old, because why not; and it does a thing that drive 9 out of 10 people who come into contact with it crazy. Of the Romulans who initially experienced this phenomenon who supposedly didn't go crazy, they experienced something so disturbing about synthetic life forms (again, from hundreds of thousands of years ago) that they decided their society should never have synthetic life; and created an enduring secret organization within their existing secret organization, to fulfill this objective. But wait, there's more, because the super-duper secret society decided to infiltrate their long time space rival government - you know, the ones they've been at odds with for 200+ years, but haven't managed to execute a legitimately hostile move against them in about the same length of time - and they're going to enact a convoluted plot to convince them to turn on their synthetic life forms; even though they no longer have synthetics capable of independent thought. But instead of wondering how how they acted of their own accord during this attack, like any reasonably intelligent person would, they fell for the trap and banned synths.
Yeah, I'm thinking the ancient mind doodad makes 10 out of 10 people crazy; it's just that one of them acts out their crazy different from the other 9....
And lucky for Agnes that she wasn't one of 90% of people who receives those psychic flashes and starts hitting themselves in the face with a rock. I agree it's somewhat preposterous. But the premise that the utopic world and galaxy that TNG was working towards, is now in such pathetic shape is . . . eye rolling at best.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 4:23:43 GMT
Anybody see episode 9? Surprise, surprise . . . Soji's homeworld Coppelius looks an awful like California. I don't like Rafi's character because . . . She starts off hating Jean Luc so much she doesn't want to see him. Why? Because Star Fleet didn't buy their proposal? How is that Jean Luc's fault? She refuses to assist him on his mission. But then last minute "hitches a ride" but with a smart ass, disrespectful, insulting attitude. Now she's crying because Jean Luc has a terminal condition? She's an annoying manic-depressive lunatic !!!
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 4:54:30 GMT
I agree it's somewhat preposterous. But the premise that the utopic world and galaxy that TNG was working towards, is now in such pathetic shape is . . . eye rolling at best. I'm not sure I follow, are you criticizing how Picard has to taken to depicting the Federation; or the original premise? If it's the former, I'd agree, but not the latter. One of the best things about Star Trek, from The Original Series through at least Voyager or Enterprise, was the fundamental idea that someday humanity could do better, no matter how bad it may seem now; no matter how improbably or impossible achieving that future might seem, we could dream, we could hope. Now with the likes of Discovery and subsequently Picard, they've pretty much decided that it was never more than a facade and the hope was false; and that's some bullshit.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 4:58:36 GMT
I agree it's somewhat preposterous. But the premise that the utopic world and galaxy that TNG was working towards, is now in such pathetic shape is . . . eye rolling at best. I'm not sure I follow, are you criticizing how Picard has to taken to depicting the Federation; or the original premise? If it's the former, I'd agree, but not the latter. One of the best things about Star Trek, from The Original Series through at least Voyager or Enterprise, was the fundamental idea that someday humanity could do better, no matter how bad it may seem now; no matter how improbably or impossible achieving that future might seem, we could dream, we could hope. Now with the likes of Discovery and subsequently Picard, they've pretty much decided that it was never more than a facade and the hope was false; and that's some bullshit. First of all, are you suggesting the Star Fleet depicted in Picard is different than what he thinks it is? Secondly, I was trying to remember how TNG ended. Was it a grand finale? Or just a last episode? I never watched Enterprise. But I don't remember Voyager trashing Star Fleet.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 5:42:10 GMT
Anybody see episode 9? Surprise, surprise . . . Soji's homeworld Coppelius looks an awful like California. Meh, that's probably the least objectionable element I have about the episode. I mean, they at least embellished the landscape to try and make it look a little more alien, but honestly, just how different can world that is habitable for humans going to look? Beats the hell out some of the Planet Hell landscapes of yore; of dirt, often few if any trees or vegetation and just sky as far as the eye could see - and by sky, an obviously painted or lit backdrop comprised of an almost solid color that looked exactly nothing like any sky. Honestly, the episode itself seemed like it was all over the place. It goes to show how badly the series has been paced, because they just all of a sudden stitch a bunch of loose ends together; like they realized it was the penultimate episode already. What are we going to do with 7? Better have her catch up with Picard almost immediate, then promptly crash the cube so it can be no help whatsoever for the remainder of the episode; and leave 7 behind to see to repairs. Elnor too, for some reason, even though he has sworn to see this mission through with Picard; because you know, it would have made it harder to complicate things later if Picard had an able bodied defender on his side. And another fucking Soong who apparently received any DNA from his mother for at least the third or fourth generation going back to Arik. Don't get me wrong on that one, since Enterprise my personal pet theory was that Arik procreated using cloning; so this just seems to further support it. Personally though this seems like a missed opportunity to say that Bruce Maddox found a way to actually bring Data himself back, in one of these new organic/synth bodies; thereby fulfilling Data's dream to be human and Brent Spiner's dream of not having to wear the make-up again. I mean, if they're going to say that Maddox somehow got a hold of any of Data's positronic neurons - which, you know, how? - but if he did have any of them, why couldn't he have brought back Data? I guess because they wanted Brent Spiner in the episode, but didn't want his character to help Picard later when the shit hit the fan....
How the fuck did Sutra mind meld with Agnes? That is not a discipline to "study and learn," Vulcans are fucking touch telepaths; it's a biological ability and unless Sutra was engineered to be a Vulcan based "organic-synth" (🙄 sigh), there's no way she should be able to fucking do that. Was she trying to make it seem sexual? Is her first name Karma? I mean, honestly, I'm surprised there's a usable take where they said her name without everybody snickering; especially with Brent Spiner on set. And the writers can't seem to make-up their minds what this stupid "Admonition" shit is supposed to be. First they figure it's been misinterpreted this whole time; because it's a message intended for Synths. But then Sutra sees the message and her take away is, organics are dicks who will never be any good and must be destroyed before they destroy all synths - which is actually exactly how the Romulans have been interpreting it and now the planet of Cylons...I mean Synths...(🙄) are going to prove the Romulans right.
Never mind that the very premise of this ancient AI message being faulty. I mean, just because a synthetic being aren't naturally susceptible to something like aging or disease like we know it, it doesn't mean they're fucking immortals who, once created, will live until the end of time. There's all sorts of natural ways an artificial being could succumb to the rigors of time; Data himself once supposed his own components could wear out over time to the point where he could not be repaired (I think, I can't remember the episode off hand where he commented something to that effect). That's also assuming that eventually an artificial life form wouldn't eventually get bored of their existence; forever is a really long time. Obviously, i'm not an android (as far as any of the rest of you know), but I'm reasonably confidant that I'd probably be over pretty much everything a thousand years in at the latest; probably a lot sooner. On top of that, the summation of the biological condition is pretty simplistic; especially considering that many humanoid species in Star Trek come by a long lifespan naturally and can easily live at least two centuries or more. To say nothing of medical and technological advancements that could extend that lifespan. Plus those beings who, someway or another, became higher beings, after presumably starting out as run of the mill, mortal, fragile organic beings. Our galaxy alone seems to be littered with such beings in Star Trek...
And then there's Picard's health. You could almost hear the writers say, "Oh shit, we haven't mentioned that since episode 2; better bring it up again and cram it in, so we can play it out somehow in the finale." My guess is either some miracle cure offered by the synths or Soong; or Soong's mind transfer tech is going to put Picard in an android body.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 5:50:57 GMT
Anybody see episode 9? Surprise, surprise . . . Soji's homeworld Coppelius looks an awful like California. Meh, that's probably the least objectionable element I have about the episode. I mean, they at least embellished the landscape to try and make it look a little more alien, but honestly, just how different can world that is habitable for humans going to look? Beats the hell out some of the Planet Hell landscapes of yore; of dirt, often few if any trees or vegetation and just sky as far as the eye could see - and by sky, an obviously painted or lit backdrop comprised of an almost solid color that looked exactly nothing like any sky. Honestly, the episode itself seemed like it was all over the place. It goes to show how badly the series has been paced, because they just all of a sudden stitch a bunch of loose ends together; like they realized it was the penultimate episode already. What are we going to do with 7? Better have her catch up with Picard almost immediate, then promptly crash the cube so it can be no help whatsoever for the remainder of the episode; and leave 7 behind to see to repairs. Elnor too, for some reason, even though he has sworn to see this mission through with Picard; because you know, it would have made it harder to complicate things later if Picard had an able bodied defender on his side. And another fucking Soong who apparently received any DNA from his mother for at least the third or fourth generation going back to Arik. Don't get me wrong on that one, since Enterprise my personal pet theory was that Arik procreated using cloning; so this just seems to further support it. Personally though this seems like a missed opportunity to say that Bruce Maddox found a way to actually bring Data himself back, in one of these new organic/synth bodies; thereby fulfilling Data's dream to be human and Brent Spiner's dream of not having to wear the make-up again. I mean, if they're going to say that Maddox somehow got a hold of any of Data's positronic neurons - which, you know, how? - but if he did have any of them, why couldn't he have brought back Data? I guess because they wanted Brent Spiner in the episode, but didn't want his character to help Picard later when the shit hit the fan....
How the fuck did Sutra mind meld with Agnes? That is not a discipline to "study and learn," Vulcans are fucking touch telepaths; it's a biological ability and unless Sutra was engineered to be a Vulcan based "organic-synth" (🙄 sigh), there's no way she should be able to fucking do that. Was she trying to make it seem sexual? Is her first name Karma? I mean, honestly, I'm surprised there's a usable take where they said her name without everybody snickering; especially with Brent Spiner on set. And the writers can't seem to make-up their minds what this stupid "Admonition" shit is supposed to be. First they figure it's been misinterpreted this whole time; because it's a message intended for Synths. But then Sutra sees the message and her take away is, organics are dicks who will never be any good and must be destroyed before they destroy all synths - which is actually exactly how the Romulans have been interpreting it and now the planet of Cylons...I mean Synths...(🙄) are going to prove the Romulans right.
Never mind that the very premise of this ancient AI message being faulty. I mean, just because a synthetic being aren't naturally susceptible to something like aging or disease like we know it, it doesn't mean they're fucking immortals who, once created, will live until the end of time. There's all sorts of natural ways an artificial being could succumb to the rigors of time; Data himself once supposed his own components could wear out over time to the point where he could not be repaired (I think, I can't remember the episode off hand where he commented something to that effect). That's also assuming that eventually an artificial life form wouldn't eventually get bored of their existence; forever is a really long time. Obviously, i'm not an android (as far as any of the rest of you know), but I'm reasonably confidant that I'd probably be over pretty much everything a thousand years in at the latest; probably a lot sooner. On top of that, the summation of the biological condition is pretty simplistic; especially considering that many humanoid species in Star Trek come by a long lifespan naturally and can easily live at least two centuries or more. To say nothing of medical and technological advancements that could extend that lifespan. Plus those beings who, someway or another, became higher beings, after presumably starting out as run of the mill, mortal, fragile organic beings. Our galaxy alone seems to be littered with such beings in Star Trek...
And then there's Picard's health. You could almost hear the writers say, "Oh shit, we haven't mentioned that since episode 2; better bring it up again and cram it in, so we can play it out somehow in the finale." My guess is either some miracle cure offered by the synths or Soong; or Soong's mind transfer tech is going to put Picard in an android body. To a certain extent, the whole season seems formulaic. A bunch of loose ends all coming together for a final episode big fight. Let's see . . . Where have I seen that before? Personally, maybe it's just me, but I think it's a lack of imagination that the galaxy is still not getting along. What happened to the Klingons? Synths destroying organics . . . Wasn't this done already on The Orville?
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 5:57:10 GMT
Anybody see episode 9? Surprise, surprise . . . Soji's homeworld Coppelius looks an awful like California. Meh, that's probably the least objectionable element I have about the episode. I mean, they at least embellished the landscape to try and make it look a little more alien, but honestly, just how different can world that is habitable for humans going to look? Beats the hell out some of the Planet Hell landscapes of yore; of dirt, often few if any trees or vegetation and just sky as far as the eye could see - and by sky, an obviously painted or lit backdrop comprised of an almost solid color that looked exactly nothing like any sky. Honestly, the episode itself seemed like it was all over the place. It goes to show how badly the series has been paced, because they just all of a sudden stitch a bunch of loose ends together; like they realized it was the penultimate episode already. What are we going to do with 7? Better have her catch up with Picard almost immediate, then promptly crash the cube so it can be no help whatsoever for the remainder of the episode; and leave 7 behind to see to repairs. Elnor too, for some reason, even though he has sworn to see this mission through with Picard; because you know, it would have made it harder to complicate things later if Picard had an able bodied defender on his side. And another fucking Soong who apparently received any DNA from his mother for at least the third or fourth generation going back to Arik. Don't get me wrong on that one, since Enterprise my personal pet theory was that Arik procreated using cloning; so this just seems to further support it. Personally though this seems like a missed opportunity to say that Bruce Maddox found a way to actually bring Data himself back, in one of these new organic/synth bodies; thereby fulfilling Data's dream to be human and Brent Spiner's dream of not having to wear the make-up again. I mean, if they're going to say that Maddox somehow got a hold of any of Data's positronic neurons - which, you know, how? - but if he did have any of them, why couldn't he have brought back Data? I guess because they wanted Brent Spiner in the episode, but didn't want his character to help Picard later when the shit hit the fan....
How the fuck did Sutra mind meld with Agnes? That is not a discipline to "study and learn," Vulcans are fucking touch telepaths; it's a biological ability and unless Sutra was engineered to be a Vulcan based "organic-synth" (🙄 sigh), there's no way she should be able to fucking do that. Was she trying to make it seem sexual? Is her first name Karma? I mean, honestly, I'm surprised there's a usable take where they said her name without everybody snickering; especially with Brent Spiner on set. And the writers can't seem to make-up their minds what this stupid "Admonition" shit is supposed to be. First they figure it's been misinterpreted this whole time; because it's a message intended for Synths. But then Sutra sees the message and her take away is, organics are dicks who will never be any good and must be destroyed before they destroy all synths - which is actually exactly how the Romulans have been interpreting it and now the planet of Cylons...I mean Synths...(🙄) are going to prove the Romulans right.
Never mind that the very premise of this ancient AI message being faulty. I mean, just because a synthetic being aren't naturally susceptible to something like aging or disease like we know it, it doesn't mean they're fucking immortals who, once created, will live until the end of time. There's all sorts of natural ways an artificial being could succumb to the rigors of time; Data himself once supposed his own components could wear out over time to the point where he could not be repaired (I think, I can't remember the episode off hand where he commented something to that effect). That's also assuming that eventually an artificial life form wouldn't eventually get bored of their existence; forever is a really long time. Obviously, i'm not an android (as far as any of the rest of you know), but I'm reasonably confidant that I'd probably be over pretty much everything a thousand years in at the latest; probably a lot sooner. On top of that, the summation of the biological condition is pretty simplistic; especially considering that many humanoid species in Star Trek come by a long lifespan naturally and can easily live at least two centuries or more. To say nothing of medical and technological advancements that could extend that lifespan. Plus those beings who, someway or another, became higher beings, after presumably starting out as run of the mill, mortal, fragile organic beings. Our galaxy alone seems to be littered with such beings in Star Trek...
And then there's Picard's health. You could almost hear the writers say, "Oh shit, we haven't mentioned that since episode 2; better bring it up again and cram it in, so we can play it out somehow in the finale." My guess is either some miracle cure offered by the synths or Soong; or Soong's mind transfer tech is going to put Picard in an android body. REPLY #2 Avatar had a good alien world.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 6:00:35 GMT
I'm not sure I follow, are you criticizing how Picard has to taken to depicting the Federation; or the original premise? If it's the former, I'd agree, but not the latter. One of the best things about Star Trek, from The Original Series through at least Voyager or Enterprise, was the fundamental idea that someday humanity could do better, no matter how bad it may seem now; no matter how improbably or impossible achieving that future might seem, we could dream, we could hope. Now with the likes of Discovery and subsequently Picard, they've pretty much decided that it was never more than a facade and the hope was false; and that's some bullshit. First of all, are you suggesting the Star Fleet depicted in Picard is different than what he thinks it is? Secondly, I was trying to remember how TNG ended. Was it a grand finale? Or just a last episode? I never watched Enterprise. But I don't remember Voyager trashing Star Fleet. I mean, in Picard the Federation has taken some pretty extreme stances that go against the core concept of Star Trek; chief among them abandoning the Romulans during their hour of need, the synth ban. I mean, come on, first they say that no android since Data has achieved his level of intelligence or consciousness; yet when a bunch of synths - who were for some reason made to look and act human, despite their AI deficiencies; and were treated as something short of being a slave - enact an attack on Mars, despite them supposedly not having the will or intelligence to act on their own, the Federation takes that action as an indication of how all Synthetic beings are and bans them. I get trying to explore contemporary social themes, which Star Trek is known for, but never at the expense of that core premise of humanity having grown passed these types of shortcomings. I'm not quite sure what you mean by how TNG ended or what the difference would be. They knew it was ending and they did what was arguably one of the best possible series finales of any show, let alone Star Trek; with "All Good Things...." Deep Space Nine and Voyager each, in their own way, picked up and carried the torch. DS9 may have colored outside the lines a little, but they still kept the faith, so to speak. There was more nuance, and people weren't averse to fighting for what they believed in, even if those beliefs weren't shared by everyone. Voyager held more to the ideals of Starfleet; they were a little more like TOS and TNG in that regard. Enterprise was a little dirtier in the beginning, comparatively speaking; things weren't perfect, but that was arguably part of the point. It was set during a time before all the major problems had been settled and, certainly towards the end of the series once it got good, they explored how they got there; which held the promise for a compelling journey. The one thing I do wonder, which I don't know if it's what you meant by "are you suggesting the Star Fleet depicted in Picard is different than what he thinks it is?" - given his health issues and the implications of it being Irumodic Syndrome, like they suggested he might develop in "All Good Things..."; it's not impossible that Picard has lost his mind and that some or all of this isn't what it appears to be, but rather how Picard is perceiving it. I don't, however, see how they could play that off in any satisfying way; especially since they haven't really lain any clues to hint towards that conclusion, apart from the incongruity in tone and behavior of the characters and setting.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 6:12:15 GMT
First of all, are you suggesting the Star Fleet depicted in Picard is different than what he thinks it is? Secondly, I was trying to remember how TNG ended. Was it a grand finale? Or just a last episode? I never watched Enterprise. But I don't remember Voyager trashing Star Fleet. I mean, in Picard the Federation has taken some pretty extreme stances that go against the core concept of Star Trek; chief among them abandoning the Romulans during their hour of need, the synth ban. I mean, come on, first they say that no android since Data has achieved his level of intelligence or consciousness; yet when a bunch of synths - who were for some reason made to look and act human, despite their AI deficiencies; and were treated as something short of being a slave - enact an attack on Mars, despite them supposedly not having the will or intelligence to act on their own, the Federation takes that action as an indication of how all Synthetic beings are and bans them. I get trying to explore contemporary social themes, which Star Trek is known for, but never at the expense of that core premise of humanity having grown passed these types of shortcomings. I'm not quite sure what you mean by how TNG ended or what the difference would be. They knew it was ending and they did what was arguably one of the best possible series finales of any show, let alone Star Trek; with "All Good Things...." Deep Space Nine and Voyager each, in their own way, picked up and carried the torch. DS9 may have colored outside the lines a little, but they still kept the faith, so to speak. There was more nuance, and people weren't averse to fighting for what they believed in, even if those beliefs weren't shared by everyone. Voyager held more to the ideals of Starfleet; they were a little more like TOS and TNG in that regard. Enterprise was a little dirtier in the beginning, comparatively speaking; things weren't perfect, but that was arguably part of the point. It was set during a time before all the major problems had been settled and, certainly towards the end of the series once it got good, they explored how they got there; which held the promise for a compelling journey. The one thing I do wonder, which I don't know if it's what you meant by "are you suggesting the Star Fleet depicted in Picard is different than what he thinks it is?" - given his health issues and the implications of it being Irumodic Syndrome, like they suggested he might develop in "All Good Things..."; it's not impossible that Picard has lost his mind and that some or all of this isn't what it appears to be, but rather how Picard is perceiving it. I don't, however, see how they could play that off in any satisfying way; especially since they haven't really lain any clues to hint towards that conclusion, apart from the incongruity in tone and behavior of the characters and setting. I'm sure I've seen "All Good Things . . . " I just can't remember it. But I don't remember it being about Star Fleet falling apart. And I was never a TOS fan. I had no mention of "Star Fleet abandoning the Romulans". Where did that come from? The Star Trek I would find most intriguing would be about the relationships between the humans, the Romulans and the Klingons getting along better than ever before. And working together to unify the whole galaxy. And exploring outside the galaxy. New and different species are entertaining to me. The Borg were ingenious. And that species that operated on different dimensions . . . I can't remember their name. Strange new worlds. Not obvious California landscapes with different colored trees. Come on !!! Where's the imagination ??
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 6:18:58 GMT
Meh, that's probably the least objectionable element I have about the episode. I mean, they at least embellished the landscape to try and make it look a little more alien, but honestly, just how different can world that is habitable for humans going to look? Beats the hell out some of the Planet Hell landscapes of yore; of dirt, often few if any trees or vegetation and just sky as far as the eye could see - and by sky, an obviously painted or lit backdrop comprised of an almost solid color that looked exactly nothing like any sky. Honestly, the episode itself seemed like it was all over the place. It goes to show how badly the series has been paced, because they just all of a sudden stitch a bunch of loose ends together; like they realized it was the penultimate episode already. What are we going to do with 7? Better have her catch up with Picard almost immediate, then promptly crash the cube so it can be no help whatsoever for the remainder of the episode; and leave 7 behind to see to repairs. Elnor too, for some reason, even though he has sworn to see this mission through with Picard; because you know, it would have made it harder to complicate things later if Picard had an able bodied defender on his side. And another fucking Soong who apparently received any DNA from his mother for at least the third or fourth generation going back to Arik. Don't get me wrong on that one, since Enterprise my personal pet theory was that Arik procreated using cloning; so this just seems to further support it. Personally though this seems like a missed opportunity to say that Bruce Maddox found a way to actually bring Data himself back, in one of these new organic/synth bodies; thereby fulfilling Data's dream to be human and Brent Spiner's dream of not having to wear the make-up again. I mean, if they're going to say that Maddox somehow got a hold of any of Data's positronic neurons - which, you know, how? - but if he did have any of them, why couldn't he have brought back Data? I guess because they wanted Brent Spiner in the episode, but didn't want his character to help Picard later when the shit hit the fan....
How the fuck did Sutra mind meld with Agnes? That is not a discipline to "study and learn," Vulcans are fucking touch telepaths; it's a biological ability and unless Sutra was engineered to be a Vulcan based "organic-synth" (🙄 sigh), there's no way she should be able to fucking do that. Was she trying to make it seem sexual? Is her first name Karma? I mean, honestly, I'm surprised there's a usable take where they said her name without everybody snickering; especially with Brent Spiner on set. And the writers can't seem to make-up their minds what this stupid "Admonition" shit is supposed to be. First they figure it's been misinterpreted this whole time; because it's a message intended for Synths. But then Sutra sees the message and her take away is, organics are dicks who will never be any good and must be destroyed before they destroy all synths - which is actually exactly how the Romulans have been interpreting it and now the planet of Cylons...I mean Synths...(🙄) are going to prove the Romulans right.
Never mind that the very premise of this ancient AI message being faulty. I mean, just because a synthetic being aren't naturally susceptible to something like aging or disease like we know it, it doesn't mean they're fucking immortals who, once created, will live until the end of time. There's all sorts of natural ways an artificial being could succumb to the rigors of time; Data himself once supposed his own components could wear out over time to the point where he could not be repaired (I think, I can't remember the episode off hand where he commented something to that effect). That's also assuming that eventually an artificial life form wouldn't eventually get bored of their existence; forever is a really long time. Obviously, i'm not an android (as far as any of the rest of you know), but I'm reasonably confidant that I'd probably be over pretty much everything a thousand years in at the latest; probably a lot sooner. On top of that, the summation of the biological condition is pretty simplistic; especially considering that many humanoid species in Star Trek come by a long lifespan naturally and can easily live at least two centuries or more. To say nothing of medical and technological advancements that could extend that lifespan. Plus those beings who, someway or another, became higher beings, after presumably starting out as run of the mill, mortal, fragile organic beings. Our galaxy alone seems to be littered with such beings in Star Trek...
And then there's Picard's health. You could almost hear the writers say, "Oh shit, we haven't mentioned that since episode 2; better bring it up again and cram it in, so we can play it out somehow in the finale." My guess is either some miracle cure offered by the synths or Soong; or Soong's mind transfer tech is going to put Picard in an android body. REPLY #2 Avatar had a good alien world. Avatar had a 237 budget an spent years developing the CGI for both the characters and the landscape; a luxury most any other production can't come close to achieving. But honestly, again, why care to much about that sort of detail, especially in contrast to everything else? There are any number of conceits for accepting a simpler approach to the cinematography. Like I said, seeing as how it's an M class planet than can support human life, it can reasonably be argued that most of those types of worlds might have a lot in common visually. Or it could have been terraformed, as other planets in Star Trek have had done; and if humans are going to engineer their own environment, are they going to make something completely alien to them or is it going to look more like home? Tell a good story and put a reasonable amount of effort into the sets, costumes and props and I'm satisfied. It doesn't need to be Avatar. I haven't even seen Avatar, it doesn't impress me how much money they pissed away one some of this stuff. It's the same thing I've read about with some of the production values that went into Discover and some of the money they blew on costumes and I think location shoots, that arguably just weren't necessary. When you consider how little the original series had and still made it work and still managed to develop the following it did, it just goes to show that that kind of stuff doesn't matter. Too many movies and tv shows have become overly dependent on CGI, it's spoiled them. Hell, it's gotten to the point where every production want every little thing done using CGI, that CGI studios are having difficulty managing the workload. It's becoming normal practice, particularly with movies, to hand off a sub-standard product for effects in order to get it ready in time for it's theater release; then go back to polish the effects ahead of it's home media release. This is often done at a loss, since a lot of times they don't get paid extra to do the work again, especially if it's completing the original work to the quality standards they initially wanted; and the consequence of this is that this has lead to a lot of CGI studios to go out of business, only putting further strain on the industry with progressively fewer studios to handle the work. The same issue came up related to Doctor Who; I've read these articles about the grueling production schedule they keep, in spite of how few episodes they turn out each year. And it's because of the effects and the locations shoots, but there again, once upon a time they made their mark making do with a lot less. It doesn't mean churning out crap, there can still be standards, but they don't have to be so damn high; there has to be a middle ground. Plus, restrictions can be a good thing; it forces people to get more creative when they aren't handed everything they want to make their first idea happen. And a lot of those compromises often end up making things better, because it forces the writers to put more thought into the story.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 6:25:30 GMT
REPLY #2 Avatar had a good alien world. Avatar had a 237 budget an spent years developing the CGI for both the characters and the landscape; a luxury most any other production can't come close to achieving. But honestly, again, why care to much about that sort of detail, especially in contrast to everything else? There are any number of conceits for accepting a simpler approach to the cinematography. Like I said, seeing as how it's an M class planet than can support human life, it can reasonably be argued that most of those types of worlds might have a lot in common visually. Or it could have been terraformed, as other planets in Star Trek have had done; and if humans are going to engineer their own environment, are they going to make something completely alien to them or is it going to look more like home? Tell a good story and put a reasonable amount of effort into the sets, costumes and props and I'm satisfied. It doesn't need to be Avatar. I haven't even seen Avatar, it doesn't impress me how much money they pissed away one some of this stuff. It's the same thing I've read about with some of the production values that went into Discover and some of the money they blew on costumes and I think location shoots, that arguably just weren't necessary. When you consider how little the original series had and still made it work and still managed to develop the following it did, it just goes to show that that kind of stuff doesn't matter. Too many movies and tv shows have become overly dependent on CGI, it's spoiled them. Hell, it's gotten to the point where every production want every little thing done using CGI, that CGI studios are having difficulty managing the workload. It's becoming normal practice, particularly with movies, to hand off a sub-standard product for effects in order to get it ready in time for it's theater release; then go back to polish the effects ahead of it's home media release. This is often done at a loss, since a lot of times they don't get paid extra to do the work again, especially if it's completing the original work to the quality standards they initially wanted; and the consequence of this is that this has lead to a lot of CGI studios to go out of business, only putting further strain on the industry with progressively fewer studios to handle the work. The same issue came up related to Doctor Who; I've read these articles about the grueling production schedule they keep, in spite of how few episodes they turn out each year. And it's because of the effects and the locations shoots, but there again, once upon a time they made their mark making do with a lot less. It doesn't mean churning out crap, there can still be standards, but they don't have to be so damn high; there has to be a middle ground. Plus, restrictions can be a good thing; it forces people to get more creative when they aren't handed everything they want to make their first idea happen. And a lot of those compromises often end up making things better, because it forces the writers to put more thought into the story. I think they are both important. I agree, good writing, good story, good plot and good acting are more important than sets and special effects. Jeri Ryan is not as interesting in this to me as she was in Discovery. She's too human.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 6:29:24 GMT
I mean, in Picard the Federation has taken some pretty extreme stances that go against the core concept of Star Trek; chief among them abandoning the Romulans during their hour of need, the synth ban. I mean, come on, first they say that no android since Data has achieved his level of intelligence or consciousness; yet when a bunch of synths - who were for some reason made to look and act human, despite their AI deficiencies; and were treated as something short of being a slave - enact an attack on Mars, despite them supposedly not having the will or intelligence to act on their own, the Federation takes that action as an indication of how all Synthetic beings are and bans them. I get trying to explore contemporary social themes, which Star Trek is known for, but never at the expense of that core premise of humanity having grown passed these types of shortcomings. I'm not quite sure what you mean by how TNG ended or what the difference would be. They knew it was ending and they did what was arguably one of the best possible series finales of any show, let alone Star Trek; with "All Good Things...." Deep Space Nine and Voyager each, in their own way, picked up and carried the torch. DS9 may have colored outside the lines a little, but they still kept the faith, so to speak. There was more nuance, and people weren't averse to fighting for what they believed in, even if those beliefs weren't shared by everyone. Voyager held more to the ideals of Starfleet; they were a little more like TOS and TNG in that regard. Enterprise was a little dirtier in the beginning, comparatively speaking; things weren't perfect, but that was arguably part of the point. It was set during a time before all the major problems had been settled and, certainly towards the end of the series once it got good, they explored how they got there; which held the promise for a compelling journey. The one thing I do wonder, which I don't know if it's what you meant by "are you suggesting the Star Fleet depicted in Picard is different than what he thinks it is?" - given his health issues and the implications of it being Irumodic Syndrome, like they suggested he might develop in "All Good Things..."; it's not impossible that Picard has lost his mind and that some or all of this isn't what it appears to be, but rather how Picard is perceiving it. I don't, however, see how they could play that off in any satisfying way; especially since they haven't really lain any clues to hint towards that conclusion, apart from the incongruity in tone and behavior of the characters and setting. I'm sure I've seen "All Good Things . . . " I just can't remember it. But I don't remember it being about Star Fleet falling apart. And I was never a TOS fan. I had no mention of "Star Fleet abandoning the Romulans". Where did that come from? The Star Trek I would find most intriguing would be about the relationships between the humans, the Romulans and the Klingons getting along better than ever before. And working together to unify the whole galaxy. And exploring outside the galaxy. New and different species are entertaining to me. The Borg were ingenious. And that species that operated on different dimensions . . . I can't remember their name. Strange new worlds. Not obvious California landscapes with different colored trees. Come on !!! Where's the imagination ?? I feel like we're having two different conversations. I referenced the situation with the Romulans as an example of how the Federation is being depicted in Picard in a way that's antithetical to how it was originally intended to be. It's not just about Starfleet, but the civilization represented by the United Federation overall. I have no idea what you're getting at with Starfleet being depicted as falling apart in TNG or anywhere else. That's really not the point. There were certainly episodes in TNG and DS9 of Starfleet officers with their own agenda, who were arguably undermining the core principals of Starfleet and the Federation; having a Starfleet admiral as an antagonist was practically a trope. But by and large, Starfleet itself was shown to be stable at its core and fundamentally moral, with the exception of a few bad apples. DS9 managed to turn this around with the introduction of Admiral Ross, who turned out to be trustworthy (99% of the time, anyway) and competent, who could work alongside someone like Sisko without being an antagonist. Admiral Paris on Voyager was also shown to be largely a reasonable person and a good commanding officer. I do agree, they've lost sight of the core precepts that came with seeking out strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations. I don't necessarily agree with the settings issues, like I responded previously, but Star Trek is really meant to be about exploring the near infinite potential of humanity; and this just seems like a dark and dreary chase sequence, dragged out over 10 episodes...
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Post by movieliker on Mar 21, 2020 6:37:07 GMT
I'm sure I've seen "All Good Things . . . " I just can't remember it. But I don't remember it being about Star Fleet falling apart. And I was never a TOS fan. I had no mention of "Star Fleet abandoning the Romulans". Where did that come from? The Star Trek I would find most intriguing would be about the relationships between the humans, the Romulans and the Klingons getting along better than ever before. And working together to unify the whole galaxy. And exploring outside the galaxy. New and different species are entertaining to me. The Borg were ingenious. And that species that operated on different dimensions . . . I can't remember their name. Strange new worlds. Not obvious California landscapes with different colored trees. Come on !!! Where's the imagination ?? I feel like we're having two different conversations. I referenced the situation with the Romulans as an example of how the Federation is being depicted in Picard in a way that's antithetical to how it was originally intended to be. It's not just about Starfleet, but the civilization represented by the United Federation overall. I have no idea what you're getting at with Starfleet being depicted as falling apart in TNG or anywhere else. That's really not the point. There were certainly episodes in TNG and DS9 of Starfleet officers with their own agenda, who were arguably undermining the core principals of Starfleet and the Federation; having a Starfleet admiral as an antagonist was practically a trope. But by and large, Starfleet itself was shown to be stable at its core and fundamentally moral, with the exception of a few bad apples. DS9 managed to turn this around with the introduction of Admiral Ross, who turned out to be trustworthy (99% of the time, anyway) and competent, who could work alongside someone like Sisko without being an antagonist. Admiral Paris on Voyager was also shown to be largely a reasonable person and a good commanding officer. I do agree, they've lost sight of the core precepts that came with seeking out strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations. I don't necessarily agree with the settings issues, like I responded previously, but Star Trek is really meant to be about exploring the near infinite potential of humanity; and this just seems like a dark and dreary chase sequence, dragged out over 10 episodes... I think we both agree on this; "I do agree, they've lost sight of the core precepts that came with seeking out strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations. I don't necessarily agree with the settings issues, like I responded previously, but Star Trek is really meant to be about exploring the near infinite potential of humanity; and this just seems like a dark and dreary chase sequence, dragged out over 10 episodes..."That's what I liked about TNG. That is what I feel is missing from every Star Trek since TNG. And that is what's missing here. Star Fleet abandoning the Romulans, Synths destroying Mars, Star Fleet being infiltrated by Romulans. This is not Star Trek. This is The Real Housewives of Space fucking things up with unnecessary infighting, backstabbing, questionable morals and ethics, etc. No imagination. Just Jerry Springer in space.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 6:39:21 GMT
Jeri Ryan is not as interesting in this to me as she was in Discovery. She's too human. *Voyager, not Discovery. Her story had potential, but as with the rest of the story this season, it's been poorly planned or paced to make the most effective use of the character or properly develop her story. I don't mind so much that she's loosened up over the last 15-20 years; they showed at least some possibilities for that type of growth during her time on Voyager. I think the stuff with Icheb was over the top; and especially unearned, since they hadn't bothered to connect the dots much. Her first full episode appearance was pretty disappointing. For a short run season, they really shouldn't have time for filler episodes and that was a filler episode; as was the episode with Riker and Troi. All three of them could have been better used. Frankly, I think they could have made better use of 7 by not bringing back Hugh (at least for now) and had 7 in charge of the abandoned cube and rescue of the former drones. It would have made at least as much sense; and would have required fewer mental gymnastics to involve her when they wanted her involved. Her connecting herself to the other drones could have been a measure taken to buy Picard time to escape with Soji. But honestly, Jeri Ryan is still hot as hell; and I'll admit when 7 steps out of the shadows on the Borg cube to greet Picard again in episode 9, it almost made all of the other shit worth it. Almost.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Mar 21, 2020 6:40:19 GMT
I feel like we're having two different conversations. I referenced the situation with the Romulans as an example of how the Federation is being depicted in Picard in a way that's antithetical to how it was originally intended to be. It's not just about Starfleet, but the civilization represented by the United Federation overall. I have no idea what you're getting at with Starfleet being depicted as falling apart in TNG or anywhere else. That's really not the point. There were certainly episodes in TNG and DS9 of Starfleet officers with their own agenda, who were arguably undermining the core principals of Starfleet and the Federation; having a Starfleet admiral as an antagonist was practically a trope. But by and large, Starfleet itself was shown to be stable at its core and fundamentally moral, with the exception of a few bad apples. DS9 managed to turn this around with the introduction of Admiral Ross, who turned out to be trustworthy (99% of the time, anyway) and competent, who could work alongside someone like Sisko without being an antagonist. Admiral Paris on Voyager was also shown to be largely a reasonable person and a good commanding officer. I do agree, they've lost sight of the core precepts that came with seeking out strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations. I don't necessarily agree with the settings issues, like I responded previously, but Star Trek is really meant to be about exploring the near infinite potential of humanity; and this just seems like a dark and dreary chase sequence, dragged out over 10 episodes... I think we both agree on this; "I do agree, they've lost sight of the core precepts that came with seeking out strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations. I don't necessarily agree with the settings issues, like I responded previously, but Star Trek is really meant to be about exploring the near infinite potential of humanity; and this just seems like a dark and dreary chase sequence, dragged out over 10 episodes..."That's what I liked about TNG. That is what I feel is missing from every Star Trek since TNG. And that is what's missing here. Star Fleet abandoning the Romulans, Synths destroying Mars, Star Fleet being infiltrated by Romulans. This is not Star Trek. This is The Real Housewives of Space fucking things up with unnecessary infighting, backstabbing, questionable morals and ethics, etc. No imagination. Just Jerry Springer in space. It's the darkest timeline...
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