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Post by shannondegroot on Feb 11, 2020 21:10:01 GMT
I don't get it. In Return of the Jedi (1983) she clearly said she remembers images, feelings. She has force flowing through her and could feel her mothers spirit and maybe saw her and most likely saw holographic images of her. What's more to discuss, there was no retconning in the prequel trilogy for this, Padme DID die when she was very young.
This is an exact quote taken from the ROTJ script:
Princess Leia:
Luke, what's wrong?
Luke:
Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Princess Leia:
Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke:
What do you remember?
Princess Leia:
Just... images really. Feelings.
Luke:
Tell me.
Princess Leia:
She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke:
I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Feb 11, 2020 21:43:55 GMT
I don't get it. In Return of the Jedi (1983) she clearly said she remembers images, feelings. She has force flowing through her and could feel her mothers spirit and maybe saw her and most likely saw holographic images of her. What's more to discuss, there was no retconning in the prequel trilogy for this, Padme DID die when she was very young. This is an exact quote taken from the ROTJ script: Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong? Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young. Luke: What do you remember? Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings. Luke: Tell me. Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this? Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her. I took it that Luke was asking about Leia's adopted mother, Breha Organa (wife to Bail Organa), who raised her on Alderaan. Notice that Luke says ' your mother' instead of ' our mother'.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Feb 11, 2020 21:57:49 GMT
I don't get it. In Return of the Jedi (1983) she clearly said she remembers images, feelings. She has force flowing through her and could feel her mothers spirit and maybe saw her and most likely saw holographic images of her. What's more to discuss, there was no retconning in the prequel trilogy for this, Padme DID die when she was very young. This is an exact quote taken from the ROTJ script: Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong? Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young. Luke: What do you remember? Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings. Luke: Tell me. Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this? Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her. I took it that Luke was asking about Leia's adopted mother, Breha Organa (wife to Bail Organa), who raised her on Alderaan. Notice that Luke says ' your mother' instead of ' our mother'. He only says ' your mother' because he hasn't revealed the fact that they are siblings yet. It's clearly a retcon. If you read the ROTJ script, you'll see Lucas had envisioned a different backstory where Anakin "left" without knowing "Padme" was pregnant (or ever finding out until he meets Luke). She escaped and lived in that version of events. Since Anakin knew Padme was pregnant in ROTS, she pretty much needed to die (with the child) in order for Vader not to have a reason to look for the child.
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 11, 2020 22:16:06 GMT
But why would he say "your real mother?"
Was it established she was adopted in the previous movies--and if so how could she be a princess?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 12, 2020 10:48:58 GMT
yeah, the thing is that Lucas, for the ending of his tragic moral tale, he really needed one of the the main protagonists to die this time around (compare that to the OT criticism where Lucas refused to have any of the good guys die, even Lando which reduced the stakes in a war story).
For this Lucas did a little bit of a retcon by having Padme die so early. There are essentially two concepts to construe this:
- Force Memory: Leia is established as an Force empath meaning she actually remembers her dying mother through the Force (like a reverse vision of the past Anakin or Luke had). I think this is the prevailing opinion within the fandom.
- Adoptive Mother: I personally prefer the non-magic explanations: Leia is talking about Bail's wife Breha who we see in RotS and might have died when Leia was a girl, and who Leia deemed her real mother (her name is Organa) probably before Bail remarried. It is unlikely Leia as Princess knew she was adopted (adoption would likely void her title and claim and her real origins were meant to kept secret to protect her), so this theory has some validity too.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Feb 12, 2020 21:20:50 GMT
He only says ' your mother' because he hasn't revealed the fact that they are siblings yet. It's clearly a retcon. If you read the ROTJ script, you'll see Lucas had envisioned a different backstory where Anakin "left" without knowing "Padme" was pregnant (or ever finding out until he meets Luke). She escaped and lived in that version of events. Since Anakin knew Padme was pregnant in ROTS, she pretty much needed to die (with the child) in order for Vader not to have a reason to look for the child. Interesting on Padmé surviving. I didn't know that. Since it didn't make it into the movie though, I don't know if we can consider it a retcon. It was never officially established to begin with, so it wasn't a revision to fit some new narrative.  Scripts typically go through many renditions between the first draft, to the shooting script, and then what finally ends up on screen.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Feb 12, 2020 21:59:48 GMT
He only says ' your mother' because he hasn't revealed the fact that they are siblings yet. It's clearly a retcon. If you read the ROTJ script, you'll see Lucas had envisioned a different backstory where Anakin "left" without knowing "Padme" was pregnant (or ever finding out until he meets Luke). She escaped and lived in that version of events. Since Anakin knew Padme was pregnant in ROTS, she pretty much needed to die (with the child) in order for Vader not to have a reason to look for the child. Interesting on Padmé surviving. I didn't know that. Since it didn't make it into the movie though, I don't know if we can consider it a retcon. It was never officially established to begin with, so it wasn't a revision to fit some new narrative. Scripts typically go through many renditions between the first draft, to the shooting script, and then what finally ends up on screen. In this case, it was the shooting script and it also made it into the novelization.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 13, 2020 10:38:16 GMT
Didn't realize this was supposed to be a "debate".
Clearly a different backstory being worked with when the OT was made to when the PT was developed.
Lucas simply didn't follow his own template. But still, that in itself is interesting when criticising the DT writers for not following the established narrative - even the creator himself didn't follow his own narratives!
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 13, 2020 13:38:04 GMT
Didn't realize this was supposed to be a "debate". Clearly a different backstory being worked with when the OT was made to when the PT was developed. Lucas simply didn't follow his own template. But still, that in itself is interesting when criticising the DT writers for not following the established narrative - even the creator himself didn't follow his own narratives!Funny, I thought the criticism was quite the opposite, namely that Disney Star Wars mindlessly rehashed the originals without creating anything relevant of their own (in narrative and design) and thereby negating and diminishing the previous narrative. Lucas not following his narrative is blatantly clear with every OT film contradicting the previous, especially with the father or sister reveals. But those contradictions and twists at least served to improve the drama and to to develop fresh ideas. The only SW trilogy that is coherently written from beginning to end is the PT, Lucas had considerably matured as visionary story teller and architect of world building.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Feb 13, 2020 15:03:46 GMT
Lucas simply didn't follow his own template. But still, that in itself is interesting when criticising the DT writers for not following the established narrative - even the creator himself didn't follow his own narratives! But Lucas had a template. In his case, it was more an issue of a writer revising drafts of his own work. Disney never had a template and let different directors run roughshod over the franchise. The two situations are hardly comparable....
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Feb 13, 2020 16:18:58 GMT
In this case, it was the shooting script and it also made it into the novelization. Are the novelizations canon?  I mean...back in terms of when Lucas owned the franchise? George Lucas would say when it came to other materials (comics, books, video games, etc.), if they contradicted his movies, his movies win every time as the true story/canon. I imagine that would include the novelizations too.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Feb 13, 2020 17:02:58 GMT
In this case, it was the shooting script and it also made it into the novelization. Are the novelizations canon? I mean...back in terms of when Lucas owned the franchise? George Lucas would say when it came to other materials (comics, books, video games, etc.), if they contradicted his movies, his movies win every time as the true story/canon. I imagine that would include the novelizations too. Hard to say. Lucas never made those statements until the EU started hitting big in the 90s. Back in the 80s, fans read these novelizations and ate up the extra info as extra bits of canon that weren't shown in the films. So it stands to reason that they may have been upset when the prequels later shifted direction of some of these aspects. At the very least, it shows us that Lucas did indeed change his intent. When ROTJ was shot, the intent was that Luke/Leia's mother lived on and took Leia to Alderaan herself. So Leia saying she remembered her mother makes more sense in that context. Even though a lot of that exposition ended up on the cutting room floor, I'd still count it as a retcon.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 15, 2020 10:28:34 GMT
Didn't realize this was supposed to be a "debate". Clearly a different backstory being worked with when the OT was made to when the PT was developed. Lucas simply didn't follow his own template. But still, that in itself is interesting when criticising the DT writers for not following the established narrative - even the creator himself didn't follow his own narratives!Funny, I thought the criticism was quite the opposite, namely that Disney Star Wars mindlessly rehashed the originals without creating anything relevant of their own (in narrative and design) and thereby negating and diminishing the previous narrative. Lucas not following his narrative is blatantly clear with every OT film contradicting the previous, especially with the father or sister reveals. But those contradictions and twists at least served to improve the drama and to to develop fresh ideas. The only SW trilogy that is coherently written from beginning to end is the PT, Lucas had considerably matured as visionary story teller and architect of world building. True re TFA being a rehash, not sure about the others though - new force powers being made up, failing to follow / retconning the previous narrative was more the order of the day. But even that TFA rehash caused narrative issues, e.g. - Why is there a new Empire called the first order? Where did this Snoke come from? Why is Han reset to being a simple smuggler again? Don't think there was any contradictions as such in the OT re the father / sister reveals. Obi Wan's shifty eyes in ANH let's the entire audience know something isn't quite right with the story he tells Luke, so it's a reveal in ESB, rather than any contradiction or retcon. Obi Wan didn't know about Leia, so the existence of a sister is first revealed by Yoda in ESB and then Luke works out who she is in ROTJ. Some of the dialogue is a bit clumsily done in that film, however again no actual contradiction / retconning as far as I can see. |
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Post by dazz on Feb 15, 2020 16:34:39 GMT
Funny, I thought the criticism was quite the opposite, namely that Disney Star Wars mindlessly rehashed the originals without creating anything relevant of their own (in narrative and design) and thereby negating and diminishing the previous narrative. Lucas not following his narrative is blatantly clear with every OT film contradicting the previous, especially with the father or sister reveals. But those contradictions and twists at least served to improve the drama and to to develop fresh ideas. The only SW trilogy that is coherently written from beginning to end is the PT, Lucas had considerably matured as visionary story teller and architect of world building. True re TFA being a rehash, not sure about the others though - new force powers being made up, failing to follow / retconning the previous narrative was more the order of the day. But even that TFA rehash caused narrative issues, e.g. - Why is there a new Empire called the first order? Where did this Snoke come from? Why is Han reset to being a simple smuggler again? Don't think there was any contradictions as such in the OT re the father / sister reveals. Obi Wan's shifty eyes in ANH let's the entire audience know something isn't quite right with the story he tells Luke, so it's a reveal in ESB, rather than any contradiction or retcon. Obi Wan didn't know about Leia, so the existence of a sister is first revealed by Yoda in ESB and then Luke works out who she is in ROTJ. Some of the dialogue is a bit clumsily done in that film, however again no actual contradiction / retconning as far as I can see. TFA wasn't just a rehash but a reset, it basically makes most of the entire OT meaningless, which TROS completed by bringing back Palpatine, and they didn't even do it in a good way, like establish the new order...eh  ….that is present, the new peace and prosperity that the galaxy is enjoying since the tyrannical rule of the Empire has ended, though not perfect, then have the First Order come from the darkness and make itself known for the first time, you know start the fucking story in the first episode of the trilogy, not come in mid way having skipped 100 chapters since the last instalment, ANH did this but that made sense to establish the setting they were in, and works for how Lucas made Episode 3 end, yes adventures and conflict happened between episode 3 and 4 but it still flows together, but with 6 and 7 it doesn't, we leave them celebrating the utter destruction of the Empire and the galaxy free then pick up with a new more powerful Empire fully established out of nowhere, it was stupid and lazy, JJ clearly just wanted to remake ANH in his own way rather than continue the story.
The same goes for TROS really, same baddie, same trick of luring the resistance/rebels into a trap to be wiped out, same all black clad lackey named Skywalker turning on said baddie, sort of even the same way he dies, firing lightning like a pillock to his death, same "noble" sacrifice from the Skywalker to save the hero of the galaxy, even has dramatic family revelations and such, as much as I despise it TLJ is the least of a rehash, only real rehash element from Empire is how the good guys hobble out of the movie mostly defeated with a sliver of hope for the future, they do a little rehash from ANH with Luke just giving his life knowingly to become one with the force I guess, you could say the Casino and Del Toro stuff is a rehash of Cloud City & Lando I guess but whatever, mostly a different story than Empire.
I think the Leia reveal is a bit of a retcon seeing as how Obi-Wan shows no more interest in her or Luke helping her than one would expect for a stranger, if he was meant to know Leia was Luke's sister surely his wanting Luke to help her would be more insistent, he wants Luke to go so he can train him, not because his sister is in desperate need of help, that and the sudden retcon of Luke no longer wanting to get in her knickers, like no reaction whatsoever on his part that he has found her attractive and even kissed her, the only one who seems to remember the attraction is Han.
Obi Wan also did know about Leia, what I find silly is how by giving Leia these force memories wouldn't that mean she should have a stronger base connection to the force than Luke, which is one of the reasons Yoda personally wanted her to be trained as the Jedi not Luke as well as their personality differences, but despite this her having a seemingly stronger force connection Vader cannot sense that in her at all in ANH not even slightly, or get any kind of read on her beyond the façade of her being just a Princess, given how all knowing and powerful the force is meant to make people this seems like a solid retcon imo.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 15, 2020 20:33:57 GMT
The DT doesn't just make the OT meaningless, it makes the entire "Skywalker Saga" meaningless as Anakin / Luke / Leia could have just sat the whole thing out, given that the story is now reduced to Palpatine was always destined to be defeated by his own offspring. No Skywalkers required.
I don't know what you mean re Obi-Wan - he has no knowledge of who Leia is in ANH, like you said his interest is mainly in training Luke / helping the alliance.
I also don't know about it being a sudden retcon re Luke "no longer wanting to get in her knickers". It would have been a bit odd if he still had wanted to after finding out she was his sister surely? 🤔
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Post by dazz on Feb 15, 2020 22:33:06 GMT
The DT doesn't just make the OT meaningless, it makes the entire "Skywalker Saga" meaningless as Anakin / Luke / Leia could have just sat the whole thing out, given that the story is now reduced to Palpatine was always destined to be defeated by his own offspring. No Skywalkers required. I don't know what you mean re Obi-Wan - he has no knowledge of who Leia is in ANH, like you said his interest is mainly in training Luke / helping the alliance. I also don't know about it being a sudden retcon re Luke "no longer wanting to get in her knickers". It would have been a bit odd if he still had wanted to after finding out she was his sister surely? 🤔 With the Luke not wanting to get in Leia's knickers is in regard to Luke nor anyone but Han acknowledging how awkward Luke fancying her or her kissing him in the previous 2 films is, Luke would no longer want to act on his feelings but still at that point he has been lusting after Leia for several years, but it's like ok he gets told that's his sister and suddenly any past feelings are wiped from their past as to not address Lucas wrote in an incestuous kiss in hindsight.
Obi Wan was there when Padme gave birth along with Yoda and Senator Organa, he would know Organa adopted Leia same as how Organa knew where Obi-Wan went and likely why, it makes no sense for Organa to know where Obi-Wan was hiding out as a hermit if he wasn't told, and if he was there's no reason Obi-Wan wouldn't know Organa was adopting Leia, I don't recall the exact scene if when Organa offered to adopt her he was in it but even so those 3 clearly knew each other's parts of their plan.
Also in additional material I think Obi-Wan and Yoda communicated via the force and were at odds over which of the two should be given training and relied on, Kenobi believed in Luke whilst Yoda believed in Leia but ultimately Kenobi got his way.
I don't know the DT makes the PT useless as technically Vader was/is key to the Emperor succeeding, Anakin didn't suss him out the Jedi did, Windu had him dead to right and Anakin saved him, all his other apprentices were killed or turned on him, Anakin was his right hand and was a key participant in the training of the Inquisitors and the hunt for the remaining Jedi, but it does mean that it wasn't the Skywalker Saga but the Palpatine Saga as the story is about him, not them.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 16, 2020 0:15:24 GMT
Obi Wan was there when Padme gave birth along with Yoda and Senator Organa, he would know Organa adopted Leia same as how Organa knew where Obi-Wan went and likely why, it makes no sense for Organa to know where Obi-Wan was hiding out as a hermit if he wasn't told, and if he was there's no reason Obi-Wan wouldn't know Organa was adopting Leia, I don't recall the exact scene if when Organa offered to adopt her he was in it but even so those 3 clearly knew each other's parts of their plan. That's all badly written PT stuff though. I was talking about how Leia being written in the OT was more a reveal than a bad retcon. In the OT, Obi-Wan only finds out about Leia from Yoda in TESB after he says "That boy was our last hope". He then fills Luke in on the story in ROTJ. It's all reveals rather than retcons there. The only reason you can even think of that differently is from the PT perspective you just mentioned - but you can't call out an inconsistency in ANH because they screwed up and placed Obi-Wan at Luke / Leia's birth in a film made nearly 30 years later... Going back to the OP, clearly Padme should not have died in childbirth and Luke should have been separated from her / Leia when he was born. They had three films to plan a story out which should have ended with that, yet they stuffed up - primarily with wasting almost an entire inconsequential third of their time on TPM. |
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Post by dazz on Feb 16, 2020 4:50:13 GMT
Obi Wan was there when Padme gave birth along with Yoda and Senator Organa, he would know Organa adopted Leia same as how Organa knew where Obi-Wan went and likely why, it makes no sense for Organa to know where Obi-Wan was hiding out as a hermit if he wasn't told, and if he was there's no reason Obi-Wan wouldn't know Organa was adopting Leia, I don't recall the exact scene if when Organa offered to adopt her he was in it but even so those 3 clearly knew each other's parts of their plan. That's all badly written PT stuff though. I was talking about how Leia being written in the OT was more a reveal than a bad retcon. In the OT, Obi-Wan only finds out about Leia from Yoda in TESB after he says "That boy was our last hope". He then fills Luke in on the story in ROTJ. It's all reveals rather than retcons there. The only reason you can even think of that differently is from the PT perspective you just mentioned - but you can't call out an inconsistency in ANH because they screwed up and placed Obi-Wan at Luke / Leia's birth in a film made nearly 30 years later... Going back to the OP, clearly Padme should not have died in childbirth and Luke should have been separated from her / Leia when he was born. They had three films to plan a story out which should have ended with that, yet they stuffed up - primarily with wasting almost an entire inconsequential third of their time on TPM. No you can think that by the narrative told in the OT, again how does Organa know Obi-Wan is hiding out on a shithole like Tattoine and such info is so blasé that Leia knows it to use just on the off chance she runs into trouble just out of orbit of said planet, where Obi-Wan just so happens to be protecting Organa's adopted daughters twin brother? Or how magical revelations are plentiful with the force, yet Obi-Wan nor Vader in ANH have even an inkling about who or what Leia is yet Yoda does and he's on an even more remote and shithole of a planet who knows not only of Leia but Luke also?
It's a case of most reveals in the OT being absurd when you look back because Lucas was pulling them out of his arse movie to movie, some work kind of others are just dopey, then again I also feel like Leia falling in love with Han like she did was fucking hysterical and look at the "I know" from Han in a much different way than most, most see it as Han not being the type to say it back in that moment, to me it's Han being used to naïve young girls thinking they are in love when they really just want to jump his bones...but that's just me.
I disagree with the Padme thing, for her to abandon one whilst protecting the other is hardly the actions you want to paint a loving mother with, she had to die or else that's what she did, she sent her son off to live on a crime infested desert planet filled with untold dangers to be a moisture farmer whilst she stayed with her daughter in luxury as a queen and princess, way to paint her as a right cow mate.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 16, 2020 8:54:42 GMT
No you can think that by the narrative told in the OT, again how does Organa know Obi-Wan is hiding out on a shithole like Tattoine and such info is so blasé that Leia knows it to use just on the off chance she runs into trouble just out of orbit of said planet, where Obi-Wan just so happens to be protecting Organa's adopted daughters twin brother? Or how magical revelations are plentiful with the force, yet Obi-Wan nor Vader in ANH have even an inkling about who or what Leia is yet Yoda does and he's on an even more remote and shithole of a planet who knows not only of Leia but Luke also? I don't understand why you'd think any of that means Obi-Wan must have known who Leia was. Again Yoda tells him in TESB. We know why Leia knows he's there, i.e. because Bail Organa knows he's there - "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars", so there's no "just so happens" about it - Obi-Wan is there because he's watching Luke and Leia goes there - as instructed by Bail Organa - because he knew Obi-Wan was there. Simples... Vader doesn't know who Luke is until The Emperor tells him in TESB. Vader doesn't know who Leia is until he reads it from Luke in ROTJ. Nothing magical there though, so I don't see why Obi-Wan would have to "magically" know about Leia, making the reveal a retcon? 🤔 Why would Yoda being on Dagobah have any bearing on him knowing about the birth of Luke / Leia years before? (if it helps, image the ROTS birth scene but without Obi-Wan being present) |
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Post by dazz on Feb 16, 2020 17:19:49 GMT
No you can think that by the narrative told in the OT, again how does Organa know Obi-Wan is hiding out on a shithole like Tattoine and such info is so blasé that Leia knows it to use just on the off chance she runs into trouble just out of orbit of said planet, where Obi-Wan just so happens to be protecting Organa's adopted daughters twin brother? Or how magical revelations are plentiful with the force, yet Obi-Wan nor Vader in ANH have even an inkling about who or what Leia is yet Yoda does and he's on an even more remote and shithole of a planet who knows not only of Leia but Luke also? I don't understand why you'd think any of that means Obi-Wan must have known who Leia was. Again Yoda tells him in TESB. We know why Leia knows he's there, i.e. because Bail Organa knows he's there - "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars", so there's no "just so happens" about it - Obi-Wan is there because he's watching Luke and Leia goes there - as instructed by Bail Organa - because he knew Obi-Wan was there. Simples... Vader doesn't know who Luke is until The Emperor tells him in TESB. Vader doesn't know who Leia is until he reads it from Luke in ROTJ. Nothing magical there though, so I don't see why Obi-Wan would have to "magically" know about Leia, making the reveal a retcon? 🤔 Why would Yoda being on Dagobah have any bearing on him knowing about the birth of Luke / Leia years before? (if it helps, image the ROTS birth scene but without Obi-Wan being present) Because Obi-Wan and Luke are in hiding from Vader who as Obi-Wan says killed the Jedi, so why is his location so readily available and passed on by the Organa's? people who are near openly opposing the Empire and using their status to protect themselves, as in very public opposition to the very tyrannical Emperor? why do THEY have this info? Obi-Wan served Organa in the Clone Wars almost 20 years ago, how does that mean he knows where Obi-Wan is now, he's not even going by Obi-Wan anymore, and they both happen to be protecting the children of Vader, what a coincidence.
Actually just rewatching the clip of that on YT he does actually respond when Leia says she's come under attack, before identifying herself or where she is from, she only says Obi-Wan served her father during the Clone Wars, which lets be honest he would have served many politicians in that time, and she says served him, not served under him meaning this would be a rare superior to him given his rank as a general you would think, so I take that back a bit, intended or not Alec McGuiness's acting did leave room to assume he did know.
But the no magic bit Yoda knew of Leia and had never been said he had even seen her before, how is that not "magic", same for Luke's dreams, Leia hearing Luke's call for help through the force and such, and then Leia having memories of her mother, they all suggest there is a greater connection in the force between family, yet Vader never picks up on this shit until ROTJ when he and Luke can just sense each other across vast distances? again if Leia has the force why can Vader not sense this in ANH? he could sense Obi-Wan?
Also given what else we know even just from the OT the only reason for Obi-Wan to leave Tattoine if a purpose as great as the one he has arises, he didn't know what R2 held within him, she just says it's vital to the survival of the Rebellion, but not how it is or what it is, for all he knows it's a list of potential new base locations, low level intel given to Leia to retrieve and carry out as a entry level task considering how young she is and one would assume inexperienced, so she may think it is vital but it isn't really, but Obi-Wan is just going to abandon his isolation and watching over Luke for that? a possibly unimportant courier mission? makes more sense if Obi-Wan knows who she is and the greater importance of these events, which is possible given in the next 2 films they set up force visions and such, Obi-Wan could have always known this would be his final task before becoming one with the force.
Still think Vader not knowing he was torturing his own daughter is a bit silly what with the later reveals, if he can read Luke's thoughts and find out about Leia in their fight why would he not have been able to find something that twigged his interest about Leia during her interrogation?
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….that is present, the new peace and prosperity that the galaxy is enjoying since the tyrannical rule of the Empire has ended, though not perfect, then have the First Order come from the darkness and make itself known for the first time, you know start the fucking story in the first episode of the trilogy, not come in mid way having skipped 100 chapters since the last instalment, ANH did this but that made sense to establish the setting they were in, and works for how Lucas made Episode 3 end, yes adventures and conflict happened between episode 3 and 4 but it still flows together, but with 6 and 7 it doesn't, we leave them celebrating the utter destruction of the Empire and the galaxy free then pick up with a new more powerful Empire fully established out of nowhere, it was stupid and lazy, JJ clearly just wanted to remake ANH in his own way rather than continue the story.