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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 24, 2017 19:54:00 GMT
Friends, foes, dudes: Some amongst us seem to be oblivious to what TFA really is. Beware! Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Let us never let that happen again! Thus, remember:
1. Rip Off: Within the Saga TFA is the least original and creative entry by far; this in a series primarily known and famous for its imagination:
- TFA rehashes 90% of ANH's plot beats, the rest is OT (father-son conflict; Emperor etc) and some former EU elements; the PT world building is mostly ignored;
- TFA uses locations, designs and vehicles from previous films, but is hardly adding anything new (even BB-8 stems from old drawings, other things such as Kylos sabre or outfit are from EU materials);
- The World Building and exposition is shoddy/non-existent: We do not get any idea how and why after RotJ we now have a Bigger, Bader & Dumber Empire again, or what the FO is and how the Republic and the Resistance work (I know: "Kids don't care", but grownups do...!);
- All of this is resulting in a stale and stagnant, seemingly shrinking universe ("Shrinking Universe" complaint);
2. CHARACTERS: the character portrayals and actions are incongruent with their character backgrounds;
- This includes racial stereotyping (mostly with Finn: "Droid Pease", runaway slave motive who is given a name by white dude, a black guy tasered by dog-like droid, while being accused of theft by white female, drinks with animals and is starngeled a lot, black guy turns out the janitor etc);
- Blatant Mary Sue writing, which is the writing’s central problem as it sucks out competence and believability of characters and events (e.g., infamous Rey/Leia hug scene);
- Old canon characters act out of character and their former arcs and development are ignored; they only serve to glorify/legitimize the new characters;
* fun fact: that even applies to spaceships, e.g., the Millenium Falcon should be the most famous, recognizable, priceless museum-piece in the universe, but is just standing around like "garbage";
- characters are overpowered or too weak, resulting in Video Game like scenes,
*such as Poe shooting down more than 10 Tie Fighters plus ground groups within one take, or
* Rey saving the day in any situation with untrained ad hoc abilities, including Force power-ups, especially when defeating the main antagonist;
* The (trained-from-childhood) soldier Finn is just an incompetent black bumbling fool, and he is finally revealed to be a space janitor (sanatation worker) – he seems mainly to be there to show that other characters are superior - e.g., cannot fly ships, cannot operate turrets, cannot understand languages, cannot fight, must be rescued all the time etc;
* Some characters such as Kylo are inconsistent, first extremely powerful, then pathetically weak (when facing the untrained scavenger Rey). His inner conflict is poorly developed: e.g., he actually prays to Vader to protect him from the light (!) - thus the guy who is famous for having been redeemed from evil, and having destroyed the Sith/dark side, and who is spooking around as a light side Force ghost...
- The father/son relationship is badly developed; we never see Han/Ben interact before as father and son, or get an understanding that Kylo is really struggling with having to kill his father – his motivation for going dark side is murky at best;
- The bad guys are poorly underwritten and just pale imitations of previous baddies (Snoke-Emperor, Hux-Tarkin, Captain Phasma-BobaFett)
3. STORYLINE/SCRIPT:
- The main story line is broken: first it's about getting a map and finding Luke, then it's suddenly about destroying Death Star III (no inner connection) - the map-plot is then suddenly resolved by a deus ex machina event (R2 conveniently awakening, having the map and nobody ever thought of looking in Luke's left-behind droid R2...);
- The scrip excels at creating logical inconstancies/plot holes, (e.g. Han taking BB-8 into Maz's cantina, resulting in it’s destruction), deus ex machina events, convenient coincidents, and plain old bad writing - e.g., the sword fight starts with a plot hole and ends with a deus ex machina earth hole (chasm ridiculously and conveniently opening to save Kylo from Rey), in between lies bad writing violating common sense, the established lore and Force rules.
- The dialog is badly writing and laughable (got a boyfriend cute boyfriend?), often just created to create cheap lowbrow humor; - All about Death Star 3, including physics and its workings, is blatantly unoriginal and stupid;
- The map subplot is beyond absurd and convoluted (since when do you define destinations in space by directions but not coordinates - but let's not even get started on this!). 4. EXECUTION: - Lot of the CGI is shoddy, the dogfights look like video games, characters like Snoke, the tentacle monsters or Maz look fake;
- The direction is rushed (relentless pacing);
- There is a propensity for overacting, especially with the new characters.
- The action scenes and set pieces are just adequate – there is nothing remotely as iconic as in the OT (DS trench run, AT-AT attack, speeder bike race/DS attack) or even the PT (pod race, Clone War/Geonosis battle, Coruscant battle etc);
- The music is just adequate, like the film lacking the old inspiration for the most part;
- Many many nitpicks/ ”lens flares”
Never again please!
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Post by Nightman on Apr 24, 2017 22:22:22 GMT
That is all unfortunately accurate.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 24, 2017 23:19:38 GMT
Friends, foes, dudes: Some amongst us seem to be oblivious to what TFA really is. Beware! Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Let us never let that happen again! Thus, remember: 1. Rip Off: Within the Saga TFA is the least original and creative entry by far; this in a series primarily known and famous for its imagination: - TFA rehashes 90% of ANH's plot beats, the rest is OT (father-son conflict; Emperor etc) and some former EU elements; the PT world building is mostly ignored; - TFA uses locations, designs and vehicles from previous films, but is hardly adding anything new (even BB-8 stems from old drawings, other things such as Kylos sabre or outfit are from EU materials); - the World Building and explanation is shoddy/non-existent: We do not get any idea how and why after RotJ we now have a Bigger, Bader & Dumber Empire again, or what the FO is and how the Republic and the Resistance work (I know: "Kids don't care", but grownups do...!); - all of this resulting in a stale and stagnant, seemingly shrinking universe ("Shrinking Universe" complaint); 2. CHARACTERS: the character portrayals and actions are incongruent with their character backgrounds, - this includes racial stereotypes (mostly with Finn: "Droid Pease", black guy tasered by droid, while accused of theft by white person, black guy drinks with animals, turns out the janitor etc) - blatant Mary Sue writing, which is the writing’s central problem as it sucks out competence and believability of characters and events (e.g., infamous Rey/Leia hug scene); - old canon characters act out of character and their former arcs and development are ignored; they only serve to glorify/legitimize the new characters; * fun fact: that even applies to spaceships, e.g., the MF should be the most famous, recognizable, priceless museum-piece in the universe, but is just standing around like "garbage"; - characters are overpowered or too weak, resulting in Video Game like scenes, *such as Poe shooting down more than 10 Tie Fighters plus ground groups within one take, or * Rey saving the day in any situation with untrained ad hoc abilities, including Force power-ups, especially when defeating the main antagonist; * the (trained from childhood) soldier Finn is just an incompetent, black bumbling fool and at the end revealed to be a space janitor – he seems mainly be there to show that other characters are superior - e.g., cannot fly ships, cannot understand languages, cannot fight, must be rescued all the time etc; * some characters such as Kylo are inconsistent, first extremely powerful, then pathetically weak (when facing the untrained scavenger Rey). His inner conflict is poorly developed: e.g., he actually prays to Vader to protect him from the light (!), thus the guy who is famous for having been redeemed, and having destroyed the Sith/dark side, and who is spooking around as a light side Force ghost... - The father/son relationship is badly developed; we never see Han/Ben interact before as father and son, or get an understanding that Kylo is really struggling with having to kill his father – his motivation for going dark side is murky at best; - The bad guys are poorly written and just pale imitations of previous baddies (Snoke, Captain Phasma – need I say more?) 3. STORYLINE/SCRIPT: - The main story line is broken: first it's about getting a map and finding Luke, then it's suddenly about destroying Death Star III (no inner connection) - the map-plot is then suddenly resolved by a deus ex machina event (R2 conveniently awakening, having the map and nobody ever thinking to look in Luke's left behind buddy droid...); - The scrip excels at creating logical inconstancies (plot holes, e.g. Han taking BB-8 into Maz cantina resulting it’s destruction), deus ex machina events, constant coincident and good old bad writing - e.g., the sword fight starts with a plot hole and end with a deus ex machina earth hole (chasm ridiculously and conveniently opening to save Kylo from Rey), in between is bad writing violating common sense, the established lore and Force rules. - The dialog is badly writing and laughable (got a boyfriend cute boyfriend?), often just created to create cheap lowbrow humor; - All about Death Star 3, including physics and functioning, is blatantly unoriginal and stupid; 4. EXECUTION: - Lot of the CGI is shoddy, the dogfights look like video games, characters like Snoke, tentacle monsters or Maz look fake; - The direction is rushed (relentless pacing); - There is a propensity for overacting, especially with the new characters. - The action scenes and set pieces are just adequate – there is nothing remotely as iconic as in the OT (DS trench run, AT-AT attack, speeder bike race/DS attack) or even the PT (pod race, Clone War/Geonosis battle, Coruscant battle etc); - The music is just adequate, like the film lacking the old inspiration for the most part; - Many many nitpicks/ ”lens flares” Never again please! It's a badly written version of ANH made to be a backdrop for Disney's latest warrior princess (perhaps Disney's first live action one in a theatrical release). That was enough for fans desperately waiting 30 years to see the OT style SW on the big screen again. And Disney fans who got to see their first live action warrior princess work her Disney magic on the big screen. They went so crazy and were so fanatical about repeat viewings, they sent TFA to the billion dollar mark in 2 and a half weeks! We will never see anything like that again. But despite its insane box office success at least half this movie shows signs of glaringly bad writing that it's more devout fans are all too happy to totally ignore or excuse. Great exposé, Tristan!
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 25, 2017 9:14:29 GMT
exposés do not make one great, dude. Frankly, I totally rehashed my old IMDb review by adding precious little new stuff (just like the TFA makers did). But then again I did not advertise that I would create something new (unlike the TFA makers).
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
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Post by ryboto on Apr 25, 2017 12:09:16 GMT
its a good entertaining star wars film thats for old and new , far far better than the prequels, i watched AOTC , this is the film you need to be scrutinising , truley awful.
Tristan , you can kick and scream all you want but fans have spoken, TFA highly regarded, accept this. The general audiences may have spoken, sure. Doesn't mean his points don't stand. If you don't think so, maybe counter his points? Otherwise your reply is fairly hollow.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 25, 2017 13:48:03 GMT
its a good entertaining star wars film thats for old and new , far far better than the prequels, i watched AOTC , this is the film you need to be scrutinising , truley awful.
Tristan , you can kick and scream all you want but fans have spoken, TFA highly regarded, accept this. hello there, Furious you old pirate, so good to see you! Many thanks for your valuable contribution. I know you will never believe me, but the rules on logical fallacies were not invented by us millennials to make you old folks look stupid - they were a thing like forever. So, arguments popularity and authority, or tu quoque deflections do not concern me, they are as clumsy as they are stupid. And, dude, the fans have not spoken, they are still speaking, and as far as I can hear, currently not too much in TFA's favor. So Furious, don't kick and scream, drink some of my millennial kool-aid and accept the "truley awful" nature of the Force Awakens. It nearly ended my fandom, don't let it end your dignity. Never again!
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 26, 2017 1:09:21 GMT
Yeah, TFA ruined Star Wars irreparably.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Apr 26, 2017 11:33:45 GMT
Friends, foes, dudes: Some amongst us seem to be oblivious to what TFA really is. Beware! Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Let us never let that happen again! Thus, remember:
Blah ...BLAH ...BLAH....
Dude, this is like only your opinion. All this has been totally debunked by the critics and the commercial success, it shows again that you haters have no real arguments agaist TFA and are just gonna hate.
Like TFA is a rehash? Uh, no, it isn't! It's nothing like the OT, there is no Empire, no Rebels, no Tatoine, no Hoth, no Emperor, no Tarkin, no Vader, no Luke, no Death Star, no DS plans, no Obi Wan, no Yoda, and so on!
And Rey isn't no Mary Sue. Luke was a Mary Sue. FFS, Rey is just the same like Luke. You are only hatin on her because she is a girl, and you are a woman hating mysoginist! Daisy said this too on the radio! Mary Sue is sexist because it's the name of a girl. She is an awesome actress and smokin hot (got a BF, a cute BF?). And FFS Han and all were not out of character, he was exactly the same like in the original Star Wars. All the characters were awesome, especially Kylo Ben who just lost because he was wounded and he is a rookie, get the point? And Droid Please is hilarous, they even talk like this in space, Hahahahahahaha my fav SW line evah really, droid please!, hahahahaha!
Think you can do better than TFA? I don't think so! And btw the prequals were so horrible bad, so your entire threat is totally invalid. Consider yourself debunked.
Kiss my ignore list. Did I forget anything?
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 26, 2017 17:59:27 GMT
Yeah, TFA ruined Star Wars irreparably. and how did it ruin star wars ? for you maybe for the majority of us i dont think so , 2 billion and high scores will tell you otherwise Have fun; you keep buying those tickets, and I'll keep cashing my dividend checks. Everybody wins. Well, not everybody. Just Disney's executives and shareholders.
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
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Post by ryboto on Apr 27, 2017 13:53:43 GMT
Have fun; you keep buying those tickets, and I'll keep cashing my dividend checks. Everybody wins. Well, not everybody. Just Disney's executives and shareholders. Yep, ill have fun watching more star wars films whilst you remain jealous because you cant handle the fact that they are vast improvments on the prequel trilogies, boith TFA and Rogue One are smash hits with fans and critics. Hazzzzzaaaaaar
in fact, i think ill watch TFA tonight and sit back and enjoy a great star wars film.
Rogue was pretty great. Leagues ahead of TFA in regards to the mythos and general storytelling. I'll continue enjoying the EU on my daily commute and you can continue to enjoy the hollow, Disney Princess wish-fulfillment fan film as often as you like!
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 27, 2017 15:34:56 GMT
Yep, ill have fun watching more star wars films whilst you remain jealous because you cant handle the fact that they are vast improvments on the prequel trilogies, boith TFA and Rogue One are smash hits with fans and critics. Hazzzzzaaaaaar
in fact, i think ill watch TFA tonight and sit back and enjoy a great star wars film.
Rogue was pretty great. Leagues ahead of TFA in regards to the mythos and general storytelling. I'll continue enjoying the EU on my daily commute and you can continue to enjoy the hollow, Disney Princess wish-fulfillment fan film as often as you like! ^This.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:49:34 GMT
Yeah, The Prequel Trilogy ruined Star Wars irreparably. Fixed
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 28, 2017 16:10:14 GMT
Yeah, The Prequel Trilogy ruined Star Wars irreparably. Fixed Sigh. I know you're trying to be witty, but you have to think your insults through, dude. You're a strong proponent of TFA/Disney, which came after this, yeah? So your statement isn't even consistent with your own fanboyism. If the prequels ruined Star Wars IRREPARABLY, then nothing that followed them would be any good, which isn't true, according to -- well, you. Nice try though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 16:13:19 GMT
TFA repaired it though. And Rogue One, and so will TLJ, and Han Solo, etc
Soooooooooooo, you were saying?
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Post by Times Up on Apr 28, 2017 16:13:21 GMT
Friends, foes, dudes: Some amongst us seem to be oblivious to what TFA really is. Beware! Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Let us never let that happen again! Thus, remember:
1. Rip Off: Within the Saga TFA is the least original and creative entry by far; this in a series primarily known and famous for its imagination:
- TFA rehashes 90% of ANH's plot beats, the rest is OT (father-son conflict; Emperor etc) and some former EU elements; the PT world building is mostly ignored;
- TFA uses locations, designs and vehicles from previous films, but is hardly adding anything new (even BB-8 stems from old drawings, other things such as Kylos sabre or outfit are from EU materials);
- The World Building and exposition is shoddy/non-existent: We do not get any idea how and why after RotJ we now have a Bigger, Bader & Dumber Empire again, or what the FO is and how the Republic and the Resistance work (I know: "Kids don't care", but grownups do...!);
- All of this is resulting in a stale and stagnant, seemingly shrinking universe ("Shrinking Universe" complaint);
2. CHARACTERS: the character portrayals and actions are incongruent with their character backgrounds;
- This includes racial stereotyping (mostly with Finn: "Droid Pease", runaway slave motive who is given a name by white dude, a black guy tasered by dog-like droid, while being accused of theft by white female, drinks with animals and is starngeled a lot, black guy turns out the janitor etc);
- Blatant Mary Sue writing, which is the writing’s central problem as it sucks out competence and believability of characters and events (e.g., infamous Rey/Leia hug scene);
- Old canon characters act out of character and their former arcs and development are ignored; they only serve to glorify/legitimize the new characters;
* fun fact: that even applies to spaceships, e.g., the Millenium Falcon should be the most famous, recognizable, priceless museum-piece in the universe, but is just standing around like "garbage";
- characters are overpowered or too weak, resulting in Video Game like scenes,
*such as Poe shooting down more than 10 Tie Fighters plus ground groups within one take, or
* Rey saving the day in any situation with untrained ad hoc abilities, including Force power-ups, especially when defeating the main antagonist;
* The (trained-from-childhood) soldier Finn is just an incompetent black bumbling fool, and he is finally revealed to be a space janitor (sanatation worker) – he seems mainly to be there to show that other characters are superior - e.g., cannot fly ships, cannot operate turrets, cannot understand languages, cannot fight, must be rescued all the time etc;
* Some characters such as Kylo are inconsistent, first extremely powerful, then pathetically weak (when facing the untrained scavenger Rey). His inner conflict is poorly developed: e.g., he actually prays to Vader to protect him from the light (!) - thus the guy who is famous for having been redeemed from evil, and having destroyed the Sith/dark side, and who is spooking around as a light side Force ghost...
- The father/son relationship is badly developed; we never see Han/Ben interact before as father and son, or get an understanding that Kylo is really struggling with having to kill his father – his motivation for going dark side is murky at best;
- The bad guys are poorly underwritten and just pale imitations of previous baddies (Snoke-Emperor, Hux-Tarkin, Captain Phasma-BobaFett)
3. STORYLINE/SCRIPT:
- The main story line is broken: first it's about getting a map and finding Luke, then it's suddenly about destroying Death Star III (no inner connection) - the map-plot is then suddenly resolved by a deus ex machina event (R2 conveniently awakening, having the map and nobody ever thought of looking in Luke's left-behind droid R2...);
- The scrip excels at creating logical inconstancies/plot holes, (e.g. Han taking BB-8 into Maz's cantina, resulting in it’s destruction), deus ex machina events, convenient coincidents, and plain old bad writing - e.g., the sword fight starts with a plot hole and ends with a deus ex machina earth hole (chasm ridiculously and conveniently opening to save Kylo from Rey), in between lies bad writing violating common sense, the established lore and Force rules.
- The dialog is badly writing and laughable (got a boyfriend cute boyfriend?), often just created to create cheap lowbrow humor; - All about Death Star 3, including physics and its workings, is blatantly unoriginal and stupid;
- The map subplot is beyond absurd and convoluted (since when do you define destinations in space by directions but not coordinates - but let's not even get started on this!). 4. EXECUTION: - Lot of the CGI is shoddy, the dogfights look like video games, characters like Snoke, the tentacle monsters or Maz look fake;
- The direction is rushed (relentless pacing);
- There is a propensity for overacting, especially with the new characters.
- The action scenes and set pieces are just adequate – there is nothing remotely as iconic as in the OT (DS trench run, AT-AT attack, speeder bike race/DS attack) or even the PT (pod race, Clone War/Geonosis battle, Coruscant battle etc);
- The music is just adequate, like the film lacking the old inspiration for the most part;
- Many many nitpicks/ ”lens flares”
Never again please!
Jesus, McTristancoolaid, what does that have to do with anything?
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 28, 2017 17:35:30 GMT
TFA repaired it though. And Rogue One, and so will TLJ, and Han Solo, etc Soooooooooooo, you were saying? I'm saying you're bad at The Internet. If TFA "repaired" it, then it wasn't damaged "irreparably." Soooo, learn English?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 28, 2017 19:32:08 GMT
Jesus, McTristancoolaid, what does that have to do with anything? evidently everything. But what has your post to do with anything?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 5:57:32 GMT
I'm one of those rare people that merely liked TFA. Didn't hate it. Certainly didn't love it. There's a number of things I like about it, enough to allow me to enjoy it and accept it as an entry in the saga...
But you do make a lot of very good points. I really can't argue against any of them. And the truth is I would've gladly overlooked some of these problems... But together it's just too much and really brings down my opinion of the movie.
In some ways I'm okay with the lack of originality in regard to certain aspects. Kylo Ren for example. I like that he's Vader but not Vader. I also like that there's still X Wings and Stormtroopers ECT. I honestly think it's too late to experiment with too many new ideas because at a certain point moving on from all the old familiar aspects of the saga whether superficial or otherwise, it just wouldn't feel like Star Wars anymore. Especially since the original creative team is gone. Being dirivitve is somewhat inevitable and necessary for a series this old if that makes sense.
I do however hate two things that you articulated perfectly:
First the disconnected story that abandons the search for Luke and randomly focuses on Starkiller base. It just feels too sloppy and poorly written because of this.
Second, the nonsensical simplification of the mythology into First Order V Resistence. If the FO is the new Empire then what exactly is the Republic??? Are they equals? And what is the Resistence?? An independent military entity supported by the Republic? I don't get it. Does anyone??
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Post by darkpast on Apr 29, 2017 6:06:00 GMT
some of this can be fixed in the sequels, finn is suppose to be more badass in sequels. Emperor was poorly written in New Hope also, but became a good character, same could happen with Snoke, i reserve final judgement on TFA until the sequels
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 29, 2017 13:12:16 GMT
I do however hate two things that you articulated perfectly: First the disconnected story that abandons the search for Luke and randomly focuses on Starkiller base. It just feels too sloppy and poorly written because of this. two well picked points, not much discussed. The disconnected storyline is the result of having a completely unfinished "search for Luke" script, but then offing the script writer Arndt and bringing in JJ the hack as a writer, whose idea it was to superimpose the ANH/OT plot beats over the unfinished Arndt script. The result is an incoherent mess full of plot holes and contradictions. When I first saw TFA I thought that there was heavy studio meddling and extreme cutting so that the story does not any sense anymore, like reported with Rogue One - the latter made good sense though. similar issue as above: they wanted to rehash the almighty Empire vs tiny underdog Rebellion thing from the OT, but did not have the balls to completely undo the achievements in Jedi. So, there is still a New Republic (but the Jedi Order was destroyed again by a dark side traitor Skywalker with a mask though). Yet, the Republic is completely inactive and defenseless, and facing an almighty second Empire again. What is this Empire? The crawl says: out of the ashes of the Empire rose the First Order. Which will only make sense to children: the New Republic rose from the ashes of the Empire (Old Republic then Empire then New Republic), but it is left completely unclear what the First Order actually is, a new power coming from the outer rim? Who cares, it's a uncreative deus ex machina rip off anyway. The Resistance seems to be the independent militia thing you suggest, which is completely silly and convoluted when we speak of galactic Republics with thousands of civilized star systems - but at least they can rehash the underdog Rebellion trope from the OT this way.
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