The exact percentage is not the point.
Then if you wish, we could stop here.
Because the percentage may not be your point, even though you wrote it.
And as a result much of my argument was to refute that "TFA rehashes 90% of ANH's plot beats" theory.
Since you have given up on that 90% claim, there is much less to discuss.
We are talking
plot beats, not story.
That's what you claim now but what you have used as examples are story ideas.
* Here is a definition and example of movie plot beats from Wikipedia.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(filmmaking)I've seen this kind of comparison with the Transformer movies where the plot beats match in terms of the time.
You have not done this with duration information comparing ANH and TFA.
* What you have done is list story ideas in random order picking out similarities.
That's not a criticism of you. Pretty much all the harsh critics of TFA on this site do that.
Well, no - the big difference is nuance and quantum. As they say: 20-something Lucas studied religion, philosophy, history, western and space stories and molded his unique universe from it; 50-something JJ Abrams studied Lucas and copied him.
Comparing the creative outputs of the films and finding that they are remotely at same level creatively, is utterly absurd and a uninformed relativation.
You can take that quote of mine out of context and then try to create a strawman argument;
- The idea that ANH and TFA "are remotely at same level creatively", is a claim I never made.
- What claim did I make? "I see Star Wars as derivative from the beginning."
Why? Because it is a fact. Lucas has gone into detail about that and your argument would be with him, not me.
- No need to obsess any more about my statement.
It is not an attempt to compare the derivative nature of Star Wars sequels/prequels.
I address that topic in the paragraph which follows the one you quoted.
So, if you wish to discuss my view of the level of borrowing in Star Wars sequels/prequels, including TFA, then please begin with those live action movies which start with the release of ROTJ.
I invite you to actually watch e.g., the Hidden Fortress or read a plot synopsis.
I'm not going to respond in detail about this (and much of what you wrote following that) because it is based on a false premise.
- What is relevant is that Lucas has said that "The Hidden Fortress" was an influence on ANH.
If you have a problem with that, then you should take it up with Lucas.
I am just the messenger in terms of that topic.
TFA/ANH - TFA copies plot beats for plot beat and design by desing from (mostly) the OT.
What I did not agree with was your original theory that the TFA / ANH's plot beats were almost the same.
Now you have moved the goal posts to state that there are similar plot beats between the OT and TFA.
This is not a good approach imo. Comparing 3 movies to 1 with an argument that the 1 is the same as the 3 leads to confirmation bias.
You are just going to pick the plot beats in the 3 movies with match TFA. But what does that prove? Empire is different from ANH. It's a pick and choose situation.
Also as I've written, later Star Wars live action movies borrow from the previous ones.
- Naturally, TFA rehashes some OT plot beats and story ideas.
- But I also keep in mind, there are some things in TFA which are new in the live action movies.
I gave examples about that in my previous post.
* Next you will list similarities.
the film starts out with Empire Troopers attacking to get an item hidden in an astrodroid,
I do not deny the similarity.
But what you neglect are major difference with TFA.
A Stormtrooper deserter story arc begins in the attack which is new to the live action SW franchise.
That Stormtrooper story arc continues through TFA with plot beats based on that.
This undercuts the claim of TFA/ANH plot beat similarities.
Also, the initial Empire Troopers ANH attack is against a ship carrying a princess.
That leads to the capture and imprisonment of the princess which leads to the story of her rescue (plot beats).
In the initial scenes of TFA there is no princess.
The absence of that story idea (plot beats) also undermines your emphasis on the similarities between TFA and ANH whether it is about beats or story ideas.
Rey is Luke (and Han, Leia, R2),
No. There is no ANH Han in TFA.
As far as Rey being Leia, the problem is that their rescues happen in different acts in ANH (second) TFA (third).
And the plot idea / beat is not the same. In TFA the team's main goal is to destroy Starkiller base. In ANH the team decide to rescue the princess as their main goal and then escape.
Rey is ANH R2? No. (BB-8 handles some of the ANH R2 role in TFA.)
Even the fimmakers do not deny that.
Some filmmakers of ROTJ also said that it was a rehash of ANH.
That's the nature of some later live action Star Wars films.
That does not mean that the plot beats or story ideas in ANH and TFA are close to always being the same.
Why can't you accept the obvious....?
What is obvious?
That TFA repeats several ideas from ANH.
But many of the plot beats are not the same and several of the story ideas are not the same.
Learn history and mythology. The origins of the hero's journey concept is a "little" older than some fantasy novels from the 20th century. You might begin with Cambell.
Another strawman argument.
I never wrote that the hero's journey story structure began in the 20th century.
Gilgamesh was not written in the 20th century for instance.
No, you do not get the point. The point is that the main storyline (finding map/Luke) is suddenly interrupted with something completely different and unrelated (Starkiller appears and they destroy it). In ANH all this was all elegantly and logically intervoven and connected as it was about getting the DS plans, analyze them and on how to destroy the thing.
I do get the point. And you are repeating my summary of the argument.
- You believe that ANH had the droid McGuffin story "elegantly and logically intervoven and connected".
But frankly imo what is good or bad is besides the point of your film theory about TFA and ANH plot beats.
The question imo should be; does TFA repeat ANH with the droid message idea?
In the beginning TFA does repeat the idea but then the stories diverge.
- The droid message in TFA is about finding a Jedi, Luke.
- The droid message in ANH is about the plans for the Death Star.
Luke does not = the Death Star.
Therefore a major piece of the story / and plot beats in TFA is not a repeat of ANH.
* Now your point is; ANH is better than TFA. I agree but so what.
ANH is on the AFI top 100 movies of all time.
Going down that path of what is good / or less good bogs the conversation down to individual personal taste. And that is a dead end imo in terms of discussion.
- What can be explored are the similarities and differences between the stories / plot beats.
By me.
This is wrong. Troopers defecting was done 2 times in TCW cartoon, in Rebels and in the comics. Also, HAN SOLO was a defected stormtrooper in the EU.
You are very far off here.
What am I talking about?
1. The similarity and differences between ANH and TFA.
The TCW cartoon is not ANH.
2. When I speak of comparing the Star Wars franchise, I mean the live action movies.
I stated this in my previous post.
Whatever plot beats happen with the Stormtrooper deserter character, Finn, such as escaping from the Star Destroyer, that does not occur in ANH or the other live action SW films.
Speaken of Han, did you really not realize that Finn's arc was Han's arc from ANH...?
This is a problem with many of the harsh critic arguments of TFA.
One partial similarity turns into the conclusion that the character arc is the same. No. It is not the same.
- TFA character arc; Finn is horrified by the slaughter of the First Order.
- ANH character arc; Han negotiates a deal for stowaways.
- TFA character arc; Finn decides to desert from the First Order.
- ANH character arc; Han kills a bounty hunter.
The difference is significant here.
Han still wants to be a bounty hunter. He is not "deserting" from his criminal life at this point.
Finn wants completely out of the First Order's "criminal" activity right away.
- TFA character arc; Finn lands on Jakku and pretends to be part of the Resistance with Rey.
- ANH character arc; Han flies to Alderan and dismisses the powers of the Jedi. Han is not pretending to be part of the Rebellion.
- TFA character arc; Finn and Rey team up, escape and are captured by Han's ship.
- ANH character arc; Han is on the Death Star and has to be convinced to rescue the princess.
- TFA character arc; at Maz Kanata's Finn wants to refuse the hero's journey and take a ship to the edge of the galaxy.
- ANH character arc; Han escapes from the Death Star and wants to get his passengers to the rebel base.
* Finn's character arc is to soon try to run away from the conflict through about half of his story.
Then in the second act, his feelings for Rey lead him to want to help her and by extension join the rebellion.
In the third act Finn joins the team to destroy Starkiller base and by extension to help Rey.
* Han's character is not running away from conflict. He welcomes it to get money for his criminal boss. Han willingly is going into the heart of the rebellion, Alderan.
In the second act Han wants money from the princess and so helps rescue her.
In the third act Han wants to leave with his money and at the last minute he enters the battle on the side of the Rebellion.
- Han and Finn do not have the same arc.
You see how your entire arg collapses there. Let's not even touch the other characters, eh?
To me you are not at the point where you can understand some things about my argument.
And that's OK.
We've said a lot so far.
And at this point, I'm most willing to agree to disagree and move on.
Imo at least, BB ;-)