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Post by Arlon10 on May 6, 2023 9:50:05 GMT
I am amazed that you guys are still fretting and fraying over the matter. I am still not seeing what point there is to the information, one way or the other. Are we supposed to respect Mary more because she never had children the "ordinary" way? In the Gospel according to St. John chapter 19, verses 26 - 27, Our Lord Jesus Gives His Mother over to St. John to care for. That meant there were no younger children, otherwise, Our Lord Would not Be Allowed to Have Done that. Are you aware of any reason a person might have to question the certainty of that?
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Post by clusium on May 6, 2023 18:39:11 GMT
In the Gospel according to St. John chapter 19, verses 26 - 27, Our Lord Jesus Gives His Mother over to St. John to care for. That meant there were no younger children, otherwise, Our Lord Would not Be Allowed to Have Done that. Are you aware of any reason a person might have to question the certainty of that? Did Jesus Have Any "Blood" Brothers?
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Post by Arlon10 on May 7, 2023 11:49:24 GMT
We have been over all that before, and I suspect amyghost will still not find it conclusive. I can understand the use of inexact terms, like the Earth was created in six "days." Those times and the Bible are replete with such wide ranging "definitions." That seems consistent with the state of record keeping in those days, and with the different attitudes toward kinship. And it does seem to me to remain at least remotely possible that Jesus had blood brothers who perhaps met a fate similar to Mary's husband Joseph before Jesus assigned the care of Mary to John at the cross. Much more important than that though is, supposing Mary was indeed the only example of giving virgin birth and had no children otherwise, what would that signify? I am not inclined to believe that it means there is anything wrong with "ordinary" birth.
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Post by amyghost on May 7, 2023 12:10:53 GMT
Of course I don't find it conclusive. Fairy tales aren't conclusive; they're fairy tales--no matter how much one chooses to dress them up in pseudo-scientific garb. Just as one particular fairy tale once noted, those who claim literal veracity for these fables aren't wearing any clothes .
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Post by amyghost on May 7, 2023 12:14:01 GMT
This could go on for weeks, but an impartial reading of the gospels makes it clear to the non-agenda bound reader that Mary did indeed conceive and bear other children by her lawful husband, Joseph. And why any properly ordered mind should have a problem with that is really beyond understanding.
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Post by clusium on May 7, 2023 15:36:20 GMT
We have been over all that before, and I suspect amyghost will still not find it conclusive. I can understand the use of inexact terms, like the Earth was created in six "days." Those times and the Bible are replete with such wide ranging "definitions." That seems consistent with the state of record keeping in those days, and with the different attitudes toward kinship. And it does seem to me to remain at least remotely possible that Jesus had blood brothers who perhaps met a fate similar to Mary's husband Joseph before Jesus assigned the care of Mary to John at the cross. Much more important than that though is, supposing Mary was indeed the only example of giving virgin birth and had no children otherwise, what would that signify? I am not inclined to believe that it means there is anything wrong with "ordinary" birth. Christ Being Mary's Only Child is also Messianic Prophecy. Ezekiel chapter 44, verse 2 "And the LORD said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It shall not be opened, and no man shall enter through it, because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. Therefore it will remain shut."
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Post by clusium on May 7, 2023 15:39:00 GMT
This could go on for weeks, but an impartial reading of the gospels makes it clear to the non-agenda bound reader that Mary did indeed conceive and bear other children by her lawful husband, Joseph. And why any properly ordered mind should have a problem with that is really beyond understanding. No, there is no indication in the Gospels that Our Lady had anymore children after Our Lord. Mary Conceived the Child Of God. Having the children of a man would not compare to Having the Son Of God. Likewise, St. Joseph being a pious Jewish man (& let's remember Jews do not so much as even mention God's Holy Name), would not dare have sexual relations with the Woman Whom God had Been with.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 7, 2023 20:16:35 GMT
We have been over all that before, and I suspect amyghost will still not find it conclusive. I can understand the use of inexact terms, like the Earth was created in six "days." Those times and the Bible are replete with such wide ranging "definitions." That seems consistent with the state of record keeping in those days, and with the different attitudes toward kinship. And it does seem to me to remain at least remotely possible that Jesus had blood brothers who perhaps met a fate similar to Mary's husband Joseph before Jesus assigned the care of Mary to John at the cross. Much more important than that though is, supposing Mary was indeed the only example of giving virgin birth and had no children otherwise, what would that signify? I am not inclined to believe that it means there is anything wrong with "ordinary" birth. Christ Being Mary's Only Child is also Messianic Prophecy. Ezekiel chapter 44, verse 2 "And the LORD said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It shall not be opened, and no man shall enter through it, because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. Therefore it will remain shut."
In my long experience with metaphorical or highly symbolic speech there has never been a "perfect" analogy in the sense of the numerous details. Rather, there is some lesson more readily discerned by carefully selecting some subset of the details. I can see in Ezekiel 44:2 some reason for the exclusivity you expect of Mary. It is however by means of rather indirect speech. That brings the question what else regular people may not do. If you intend to draw a line, where exactly do you draw it? I noticed other levels of "exclusivity" in Ezekiel for human priests. In Hebrew at least when it became necessary they could distinguish various types of familial relationships. In the Greek language on the internet today I found there are ways to distinguish blood brothers from other familial relationships. There are words for "brother" and "kin." I still wonder why such a vague approach was necessary or what purpose it accomplished in Mark. Again, if it is important to note "kin," then why not be forthcoming about it? if the Greek word did not exist (I suspect it did.) then why not just spell it out?
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Post by Arlon10 on May 7, 2023 20:23:57 GMT
This could go on for weeks, but an impartial reading of the gospels makes it clear to the non-agenda bound reader that Mary did indeed conceive and bear other children by her lawful husband, Joseph. And why any properly ordered mind should have a problem with that is really beyond understanding.
Where or to whom should we go for an "impartial reading," you?
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Post by clusium on May 7, 2023 22:56:54 GMT
Christ Being Mary's Only Child is also Messianic Prophecy. Ezekiel chapter 44, verse 2 "And the LORD said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It shall not be opened, and no man shall enter through it, because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. Therefore it will remain shut."
In my long experience with metaphorical or highly symbolic speech there has never been a "perfect" analogy in the sense of the numerous details. Rather, there is some lesson more readily discerned by carefully selecting some subset of the details. I can see in Ezekiel 44:2 some reason for the exclusivity you expect of Mary. It is however by means of rather indirect speech. That brings the question what else regular people may not do. If you intend to draw a line, where exactly do you draw it? I noticed other levels of "exclusivity" in Ezekiel for human priests. In Hebrew at least when it became necessary they could distinguish various types of familial relationships. In the Greek language on the internet today I found there are ways to distinguish blood brothers from other familial relationships. There are words for "brother" and "kin." I still wonder why such a vague approach was necessary or what purpose it accomplished in Mark. Again, if it is important to note "kin," then why not be forthcoming about it? if the Greek word did not exist (I suspect it did.) then why not just spell it out? As with all languages, Greek has evolved extensively since the time the New Testament was written. Just as the KJVB is written in Old English, the New Testament was written on Koine Greek.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 8, 2023 2:03:51 GMT
In my long experience with metaphorical or highly symbolic speech there has never been a "perfect" analogy in the sense of the numerous details. Rather, there is some lesson more readily discerned by carefully selecting some subset of the details. I can see in Ezekiel 44:2 some reason for the exclusivity you expect of Mary. It is however by means of rather indirect speech. That brings the question what else regular people may not do. If you intend to draw a line, where exactly do you draw it? I noticed other levels of "exclusivity" in Ezekiel for human priests. In Hebrew at least when it became necessary they could distinguish various types of familial relationships. In the Greek language on the internet today I found there are ways to distinguish blood brothers from other familial relationships. There are words for "brother" and "kin." I still wonder why such a vague approach was necessary or what purpose it accomplished in Mark. Again, if it is important to note "kin," then why not be forthcoming about it? if the Greek word did not exist (I suspect it did.) then why not just spell it out? As with all languages, Greek has evolved extensively since the time the New Testament was written. Just as the KJVB is written in Old English, the New Testament was written on Koine Greek.
So Joseph was not really the "husband" of Mary since God would not violate a real marriage? He was just a caretaker like John became when Jesus died on the cross? It was all a ruse to avoid public misunderstanding? That explains the "brothers" in Mark then! Mark was just maintaining the ruse. Now the question is who told you it's time to reveal the secret? I mean after the Bible is all finished?
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Post by amyghost on May 8, 2023 11:09:35 GMT
This could go on for weeks, but an impartial reading of the gospels makes it clear to the non-agenda bound reader that Mary did indeed conceive and bear other children by her lawful husband, Joseph. And why any properly ordered mind should have a problem with that is really beyond understanding. No, there is no indication in the Gospels that Our Lady had anymore children after Our Lord. Mary Conceived the Child Of God. Having the children of a man would not compare to Having the Son Of God. Likewise, St. Joseph being a pious Jewish man (& let's remember Jews do not so much as even mention God's Holy Name), would not dare have sexual relations with the Woman Whom God had Been with. Unfortunately, there is. But as you continue to back up that assertion with only links to religiously--specifically RCC--backed sources, and shy away from non-affiliated (or even non-Catholic) independent scholarly research on the topic, you continue to provide the same response. As I'm not moved by RCC agenda-driven arguments on this issue, the argument becomes circular and goes absolutely nowhere.
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Post by amyghost on May 8, 2023 11:10:36 GMT
This could go on for weeks, but an impartial reading of the gospels makes it clear to the non-agenda bound reader that Mary did indeed conceive and bear other children by her lawful husband, Joseph. And why any properly ordered mind should have a problem with that is really beyond understanding.
Where or to whom should we go for an "impartial reading," you?
It certainly wouldn't be from you .
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Post by clusium on May 8, 2023 14:30:25 GMT
No, there is no indication in the Gospels that Our Lady had anymore children after Our Lord. Mary Conceived the Child Of God. Having the children of a man would not compare to Having the Son Of God. Likewise, St. Joseph being a pious Jewish man (& let's remember Jews do not so much as even mention God's Holy Name), would not dare have sexual relations with the Woman Whom God had Been with. Unfortunately, there is. But as you continue to back up that assertion with only links to religiously--specifically RCC--backed sources, and shy away from non-affiliated (or even non-Catholic) independent scholarly research on the topic, you continue to provide the same response. As I'm not moved by RCC agenda-driven arguments on this issue, the argument becomes circular and goes absolutely nowhere. No there isn't, amyghost. Nowhere does the Gospels mention Our Lady having anymore children after the Christ. The words "brother" and/or "sister" is used in more than simply children of the same parents, in the Bible.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 8, 2023 23:09:31 GMT
Where or to whom should we go for an "impartial reading," you?
It certainly wouldn't be from you .
How many Socratic gadflies did you have for lunch today?
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Post by Arlon10 on May 8, 2023 23:12:08 GMT
Unfortunately, there is. But as you continue to back up that assertion with only links to religiously--specifically RCC--backed sources, and shy away from non-affiliated (or even non-Catholic) independent scholarly research on the topic, you continue to provide the same response. As I'm not moved by RCC agenda-driven arguments on this issue, the argument becomes circular and goes absolutely nowhere. No there isn't, amyghost . Nowhere does the Gospels mention Our Lady having anymore children after the Christ. The words "brother" and/or "sister" is used in more than simply children of the same parents, in the Bible.
So the Bible is not clear. Is it deliberately unclear though?
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Post by clusium on May 8, 2023 23:24:15 GMT
No there isn't, amyghost . Nowhere does the Gospels mention Our Lady having anymore children after the Christ. The words "brother" and/or "sister" is used in more than simply children of the same parents, in the Bible.
So the Bible is not clear. Is it deliberately unclear though?
More like lost in translation, time, & culture.
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monicah
Sophomore
@monicah
Posts: 300
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Post by monicah on May 10, 2023 15:45:02 GMT
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Post by Arlon10 on May 10, 2023 22:03:15 GMT
I believe the general consensus is that although it is recorded to have happened to fish, amphibians, and reptiles, it is not "known" to happen to mammals, including humans. Some experts might allow a special exception for Mary, but not using the data. It is more just an acknowledgement that science is not perfect.
Not all spiritual interventions get reported far and wide. Some people who experience a spiritual intervention choose not to report the event beyond their very close friends, because others would not understand and probably not accept it. It's the "you had to be there" rule. Unless you witness first hand you cannot witness.
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Post by Arlon10 on May 10, 2023 22:12:23 GMT
So the Bible is not clear. Is it deliberately unclear though?
More like lost in translation, time, & culture.
I appreciate that the people who have the Holy Spirit do not make fun of me because I do not. I suppose it is possible that God has a purpose for my life that does not include demonstrating any spiritual gifts myself.
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