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Post by MCDemuth on Aug 14, 2017 22:43:47 GMT
God, not this again... I saw this being discussed on the Old IMDb...
Does anyone remember the movie CREED, the sequel to the ROCKY Films? CREED was a good film...
Why can't there be a movie like CREED where James Bond 007 meets Jasmine White 008, and then James Bond 007 retires. Then they make movies with Jasmine White 008. I would go and see those!
But, I won't go and see any movie with a Black Actress, cast as "James Bond 007", because James Bond IS a White "British" Man!
Plenty of other Double-O's that can be used to star in any film, set in the Bond universe.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 15, 2017 7:23:22 GMT
Why would a redhead Bond be worse than the blond Craig? I didn't say it would be worse, there's just not real reason to make a change to the design of the character unless you're doing it just to make a statement, which is obnoxious. No, but if say Damian Lewis was cast as Bond because the producers thought he'd do a good job irrespective of his hair colour then I see no problem with that.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 15, 2017 10:50:21 GMT
I didn't say it would be worse, there's just not real reason to make a change to the design of the character unless you're doing it just to make a statement, which is obnoxious. No, but if say Damian Lewis was cast as Bond because the producers thought he'd do a good job irrespective of his hair colour then I see no problem with that. If there's somebody with black hair who would do an equally good job or it worked for Damien to die his hair then that would be preferable.
It's not about race, it's about the overall aesthetic, and changing it drastically and expecting everybody to just get over it is somewhat ridiculous. Just look how much people freak out when props don't look the same from film to film and yet you wouldn't be here telling me I'm racist for wanting the props to be consistent. Seriously, if I pointed out that Hagred's house in Harry Potter isn't the same you wouldn't be giving me this speech about how building material color shouldn't matter, but because we're talking about people you think you sound all noble telling me how looks shouldn't matter. Of course they should.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 15, 2017 21:51:20 GMT
No, but if say Damian Lewis was cast as Bond because the producers thought he'd do a good job irrespective of his hair colour then I see no problem with that. If there's somebody with black hair who would do an equally good job or it worked for Damien to die his hair then that would be preferable.
It's not about race, it's about the overall aesthetic, and changing it drastically and expecting everybody to just get over it is somewhat ridiculous. Just look how much people freak out when props don't look the same from film to film and yet you wouldn't be here telling me I'm racist for wanting the props to be consistent. Seriously, if I pointed out that Hagred's house in Harry Potter isn't the same you wouldn't be giving me this speech about how building material color shouldn't matter, but because we're talking about people you think you sound all noble telling me how looks shouldn't matter. Of course they should.
Eh I might agree if the series were known for its consistency but it's not. We've already had Bonds with different faces, builds, hair colours, accents, personalities and of varying ages. Moneypenny and Felix Leiter have been played by several different actors, some black, some white. The time period the films are set in has also changed regularly and there are any number of film to film inconsistencies (Bond and Blofeld don't recognise one another in OHMSS despite meeting in YOLT for instance). All that matters to me is they get the essentials of the character right. Also I don't think your stance makes you a racist, I just disagree that Bond's race is important. And it was you who challenged my opinion, not me yours.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 15, 2017 22:34:59 GMT
If there's somebody with black hair who would do an equally good job or it worked for Damien to die his hair then that would be preferable.
It's not about race, it's about the overall aesthetic, and changing it drastically and expecting everybody to just get over it is somewhat ridiculous. Just look how much people freak out when props don't look the same from film to film and yet you wouldn't be here telling me I'm racist for wanting the props to be consistent. Seriously, if I pointed out that Hagred's house in Harry Potter isn't the same you wouldn't be giving me this speech about how building material color shouldn't matter, but because we're talking about people you think you sound all noble telling me how looks shouldn't matter. Of course they should.
Eh I might agree if the series were known for its consistency but it's not. We've already had Bonds with different faces, builds, hair colours, accents, personalities and of varying ages. Moneypenny and Felix Leiter have been played by several different actors, some black, some white. The time period the films are set in has also changed regularly and there are any number of film to film inconsistencies (Bond and Blofeld don't recognise one another in OHMSS despite meeting in YOLT for instance). All that matters to me is they get the essentials of the character right. Also I don't think your stance makes you a racist, I just disagree that Bond's race is important. And it was you who challenged my opinion, not me yours. The actors haven't been that much different, so you don't really get to say, "well it's been slightly different, therefore we can be as different as we like now". No I disagree with that. They've all been relatively similar up until now, and you can place the original sketch next to each of them and see how the actor fits. The essentials of the character include his physical description, and when you start saying that doesn't matter, then you're talking about a different character.
- Moneypenny and Felix have nothing to do with it. Side characters aren't what people show up for and therefore their depictions aren't as relevant. - The time period has even less to do with it. Of course the films are updated to reflect the times, what would you expect? This has nothing to do with character depictions. - Bond and Blofeld's relationship and recognizing each other, also has absolutely nothing to do with the point here.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 15, 2017 23:02:53 GMT
The actors haven't been that much different, so you don't really get to say, "well it's been slightly different, therefore we can be as different as we like now". You said Lewis' red hair would be an issue. But how is his red hair more problematic a variation of Connery's black hair than Moore's light brown hair or Craig's blond? Why would going from say Daniel Craig to Idris Elba be any more of a disconnect than going from Moore to Dalton was? Apart from skin colour, Elba and Craig are far closer to one another in terms of build, mamnerisms and the characters they play as than Dalton and Moore were - they looked nothing alike, sounded nothing alike and played the character very differently. Anyway I never said it can be as different as we like. As I said, I'm against a female Bond. I would also be against a gay Bond. But I couldn't care less about a black Bond or a redhead Bond. You are entitled to disagree but stop acting like the only reason to be ok with a black Bond is PC-pandering.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 15, 2017 23:29:44 GMT
The actors haven't been that much different, so you don't really get to say, "well it's been slightly different, therefore we can be as different as we like now". You said Lewis' red hair would be an issue. But how is his red hair more problematic a variation of Connery's black hair than Moore's light brown hair or Craig's blond? Why would going from say Daniel Craig to Idris Elba be any more of a disconnect than going from Moore to Dalton was? Apart from skin colour, Elba and Craig are far closer to one another in terms of build, mamnerisms and the characters they play as than Dalton and Moore were - they looked nothing alike, sounded nothing alike and played the character very differently. Anyway I never said it can be as different as we like. As I said, I'm against a female Bond. I would also be against a gay Bond. But I couldn't care less about a black Bond or a redhead Bond. You are entitled to disagree but stop acting like the only reason to be ok with a black Bond is PC-pandering. I've already explained that if I told you I expect props to look the same or extremely similar from one film to the next, you wouldn't have a problem with that, but when it comes to a person you freak out like you're doing now. It's because you're PC-Pandering which is the only reason to change the race or sex of a lead role when there are plenty of qualified actors available who look the part. Trying to compare hair color as though there was much of a difference between Moore and Connery at all, or that Craig's hair wasn't close to brown anyway at least in his earlier films,,,,,, you know what wait, do this. Repaint your house and change the carpet and come back and tell me it's the same difference as adding a throw rug. I'm as open as anybody when it comes to racial equality but it makes a difference to the character, we both know it, and I'm being honest about that. Anybody promoting such a change isn't doing so because they don't care, they are doing it specifically because they want that change, and they want it because it's PC-Pandering. Let's stop pretending.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 16, 2017 0:04:48 GMT
I've already explained that if I told you I expect props to look the same or extremely similar from one film to the next, you wouldn't have a problem with that, but when it comes to a person you freak out like you're doing now. Being white is pretty much the only aesthetic similarity between all the Bond actors. Yet for some reason it's the only one you think integral. Whatever "looking the part" means. You can still look the part if you have a different hair colour, eye colour, build or age apparently but I guess skin colour is where the line should be drawn. Why, I have no idea. Looks pretty blond to me. Certainly much lighter than Connery's. Also different eye colour. And different build. Yes cos that analogy is apt. Explain why a skin colour difference is so much more radical than all the other differences between the other Bond actors. Like what? You even said earlier your problem was an aesthetic one. I couldn't care less. I don't want Elba to get it because I feel he'd be too similar to Craig who I'm not a massive fan of. I would however quite like Adrian Lester who I think would be somewhere between Dalton and Brosnan. I would also quite like Damian Lewis or perhaps Tom Hiddleston. All these guys would be Bonds I would enjoy, black, white or whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 0:09:08 GMT
Fine with me.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 16, 2017 0:13:59 GMT
There's no reason to make the change other than PC Pandering. Dozens of highly qualified white actors seek out the role every time it comes up.
You have no counter to this, so you don't need to go off on this tangent of every actor doesn't look like a clone of the other thing.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 16, 2017 0:22:48 GMT
There's no reason to make the change other than PC Pandering. Dozens of highly qualified white actors seek out the role every time it comes up.
You have no counter to this, so you don't need to go off on this tangent of every actor doesn't look like a clone of the other thing.
If one of these white actors gives the best audition, then he should get it. If a black actor gives the best, he should get it. I don't think any preference need be given either way.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 16, 2017 0:31:16 GMT
There's no reason to make the change other than PC Pandering. Dozens of highly qualified white actors seek out the role every time it comes up.
You have no counter to this, so you don't need to go off on this tangent of every actor doesn't look like a clone of the other thing.
If one of these white actors gives the best audition, then he should get it. If a black actor gives the best, he should get it. I don't think any preference need be given either way. And you'd make this same argument for an Asian woman giving the best performance? Sorry, I don't believe you would, and that means you don't really believe what you just said. You're just trying to take the "I don't see race" high road position as though race could never matter under any circumstances. Of course it could. Ask Sam Jackson why he's upset that he's not in the black panther movie. He said it's because he's black. It matters, please stop pretending.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 16, 2017 0:46:20 GMT
If one of these white actors gives the best audition, then he should get it. If a black actor gives the best, he should get it. I don't think any preference need be given either way. And you'd make this same argument for an Asian woman giving the best performance? I've said that masculinity is integral to the character while whiteness isn't. I never said it doesn't matter in any circumstance. I said it doesn't matter where Bond is concerned. You haven't said why it matters if Bond is white beyond the aesthetic.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 16, 2017 1:00:36 GMT
He's white, so it is part of the character, and all you're suggesting is that you can PC Pander whenever you decide you want to change something. It's not my job to justify why he's white. I don't justify why sulu was Asian, but making him white would be just as silly as what you're suggesting. You're the one who wants to change it. Please explain why this is so necessary? You really think it's important apparently. Why?
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 16, 2017 1:24:03 GMT
He's white, so it is part of the character, and all you're suggesting is that you can PC Pander whenever you decide you want to change something. It's not my job to justify why he's white. I don't justify why sulu was Asian, but making him white would be just as silly as what you're suggesting. You're the one who wants to change it. Please explain why this is so necessary? You really think it's important apparently. Why?
Ugh I didn't say it was necessary or that I wanted to change it - I just said I had no problem with a hypothetical black Bond . I also said I'd be happy for Damian Lewis or Tom Hiddleston to get the part - both white guys. And I would rather either of them to Idris Elba.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 16, 2017 1:32:35 GMT
Ugh I didn't say it was necessary or that I wanted to change it - I just said I had no problem with a hypothetical black Bond . I also said I'd be happy for Damian Lewis or Tom Hiddleston to get the part - both white guys. And I would rather either of them to Idris Elba. It's a PC Problem for the reasons I listed. No reason to do it when you have actors like Hiddleston begging for the part, and you always will, so the entire conversation is ridiculous. Good night. Your "I don't see color" bs is hilarious though.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 16, 2017 1:40:26 GMT
Ugh I didn't say it was necessary or that I wanted to change it - I just said I had no problem with a hypothetical black Bond . I also said I'd be happy for Damian Lewis or Tom Hiddleston to get the part - both white guys. And I would rather either of them to Idris Elba. It's a PC Problem for the reasons I listed. No reason to do it when you have actors like Hiddleston begging for the part, and you always will, so the entire conversation is ridiculous. Good night. Your "I don't see color" bs is hilarious though. As is your usual habit of attacking straw men.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 16, 2017 1:53:44 GMT
It's a PC Problem for the reasons I listed. No reason to do it when you have actors like Hiddleston begging for the part, and you always will, so the entire conversation is ridiculous. Good night. Your "I don't see color" bs is hilarious though. As is your usual habit of attacking straw men. Notice I don't have a problem with Money Penny being black. When you figure out the difference let me know.
Until then, consider the recent comic films, black widow is white, falcon is black, captain America is white, war machine is black, hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm just like in the actual books. Amazing huh? But sure dozens of bond books, dozens of films, he's always white, but yeah, let's make him black because,,,,,,,,,,, reasons I guess.
This conversation is boring, you have no case to make. Goodnight.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 13:58:48 GMT
No. Bond is a guy. Make up your own character.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Aug 21, 2017 18:26:11 GMT
No. That would be worthless and a total departure from the character. It's just a bunch of hipsters blowing smoke.
You wouldn't make The Golden Girls be a bunch of men all of the sudden.
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