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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 26, 2017 7:07:05 GMT
I still can't understand why you guys mock, ridicule, and insult people who believe in God, and yet you make a notable exception for Islam. You know, I see a lot of people claiming this happens, but I never actually see it happen. Are you just making it up? You mean you were on the old board and you never saw a YouMightRabbitYouMight post?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 7:56:00 GMT
I stopped taking anything Richard Dawkins says seriously when he said in an interview that he thinks Obama is the greatest world leader of all time.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 26, 2017 14:19:03 GMT
I still can't understand why you guys mock, ridicule, and insult people who believe in God, and yet you make a notable exception for Islam. You know, I see a lot of people claiming this happens, but I never actually see it happen. Are you just making it up? I've been on this board, and its predecessor, where Islam and its adherents have been given a pretty bad time of it. One imagines that Christianity is more often to the fore because there are hardly any Muslims here to argue with.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 14:38:31 GMT
You know, I see a lot of people claiming this happens, but I never actually see it happen. Are you just making it up? I've been on this board, and its predecessor, where Islam and its adherents have been given a pretty bad time of it. One imagines that Christianity is more often to the fore because there are hardly any Muslims here to argue with. Not to mention that most of us live in countries where christianity is a way bigger deal than islam is.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 26, 2017 14:53:05 GMT
KPFA was being utterly ridiculous in de-platforming Dawkins, despite Dawkins being an ass when it comes to Islam. However, no one should be fooling themselves into thinking his free speech rights are being infringed upon. Freedom of speech does not mean that organizations have any sort of obligation to let you speak at events they host. Dawkins gets to publish his best selling books and speak at all kinds of events in addition to having a Twitter account. His speech is getting out just fine. Exactly. Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without fear of punishment, it's not a right to be invited to give your two cents. Well, yes and no. Someone who is denied a platform might still see it as a 'punishment' for holding views as they do. Also on this basis would one accept a politician being banned from appearing on the media by invitation, say, on the grounds that he or she could still articulate their reform programme with complete freedom to their family and their barman?
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 26, 2017 17:15:21 GMT
You know, I see a lot of people claiming this happens, but I never actually see it happen. Are you just making it up? I've been on this board, and its predecessor, where Islam and its adherents have been given a pretty bad time of it. One imagines that Christianity is more often versatito the fore because there are hardly any Muslims here to argue with. Radical Islam catches plenty of hell, probably more on the old forum. (More people there, more crossovers from other boards.) Eventually people got tired of responding to "THIS IS ISLAM!" with "This isn't "Islam" - the US is full of "Islam" that is nothing like this... this is radical militant Muslims..." and the conversations faded. You get tired of making the same obvious point over and over with to no effect whatsoever. As you point out, Christianity is more often discussed here because this is a predominantly western board and Christianity has far more effect on one's daily life in those areas. Even given that, I'm PRO-religion in that I think it has a valid place in society, and I still get lumped into the "HATES CHRISTIANS!" category - much of the martyrdom is not only imagined here, it's actually sought-after.
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Post by cupcakes on Jul 26, 2017 19:55:39 GMT
I still can't understand why you guys mock, ridicule, and insult people who believe in God, and yet you make a notable exception for Islam. You know, I see a lot of people claiming this happens, but I never actually see it happen. Are you just making it up? You mean you were on the old board and you never saw a YouMightRabbitYouMight post? When have I made an exception for Islam? As noted many a time, it's just as bestial and infantile as the other two. Whatever you're smoking these days, Ej, it's no good for you. If I thought that were the case, I might be out robbing and looting and having a hell of a good time right now.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 26, 2017 23:50:29 GMT
Looks like Berkley is finally catching up to the general consensus on Dawkins. Really?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 27, 2017 10:31:04 GMT
I've been on this board, and its predecessor, where Islam and its adherents have been given a pretty bad time of it. One imagines that Christianity is more often versatito the fore because there are hardly any Muslims here to argue with. Radical Islam catches plenty of hell, probably more on the old forum. (More people there, more crossovers from other boards.) Eventually people got tired of responding to "THIS IS ISLAM!" with "This isn't "Islam" - the US is full of "Islam" that is nothing like this... this is radical militant Muslims..." and the conversations faded. You get tired of making the same obvious point over and over with to no effect whatsoever. As you point out, Christianity is more often discussed here because this is a predominantly western board and Christianity has far more effect on one's daily life in those areas. Even given that, I'm PRO-religion in that I think it has a valid place in society, and I still get lumped into the "HATES CHRISTIANS!" category - much of the martyrdom is not only imagined here, it's actually sought-after. This and the fact that anti-Islamic rhetoric is sometimes dressed up in anti-immigration posts.
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 27, 2017 11:29:53 GMT
Exactly. Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without fear of punishment, it's not a right to be invited to give your two cents. Well, yes and no. Someone who is denied a platform might still see it as a 'punishment' for holding views as they do. Also on this basis would one accept a politician being banned from appearing on the media by invitation, say, on the grounds that he or she could still articulate their reform programme with complete freedom to their family and their barman? But why should everyone be given a platform? Berkeley has never invited me to lecture on what is the best level in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. I doubt even my barman would want to hear my views on the subject. Does that mean I lack freedom of speech?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 27, 2017 11:47:47 GMT
Well, yes and no. Someone who is denied a platform might still see it as a 'punishment' for holding views as they do. Also on this basis would one accept a politician being banned from appearing on the media by invitation, say, on the grounds that he or she could still articulate their reform programme with complete freedom to their family and their barman? But why should everyone be given a platform? Berkeley has never invited me to lecture on what is the best level in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. I doubt even my barman would want to hear my views on the subject. Does that mean I lack freedom of speech? You certainly lack freedom of speech at Berkeley in this example, although I agree there is a difference to the right of free speech and a the often presumed right to exercise it in every instance. I suppose it is up the individual to decide on each occasion, especially when an opportunity is conspicuously withdrawn such as speaking at an institution etc, whether the remaining avenues of expression outweigh the present loss. We agree can't sensibly bewail a loss of freedom where none has been offered. Ultimately though, at least in matters of platform, it will be down to the quality of freedom one has remaining, not the breadth it represents although the two can be similar.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 16:59:35 GMT
Come now, seeing atheists criticising islam is never going to convince Erjen that atheists criticize islam. At the very least, you would have to make a youtube video saying so. You'd probably have to include some stuff about chemtrails and magic invisible planets, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 17:00:40 GMT
I stopped taking anything Richard Dawkins says seriously when he said in an interview that he thinks Obama is the greatest world leader of all time. Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that you can't provide one bit of evidence that Dawkins ever said what you just said he said.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 27, 2017 18:40:04 GMT
I stopped taking anything Richard Dawkins says seriously when he said in an interview that he thinks Obama is the greatest world leader of all time. Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that you can't provide one bit of evidence that Dawkins ever said what you just said he said. The only thing I can find is Dawkins saying Obama is "probably an atheist". Which I don't have any trouble believing. At best, a "Sunday Christian of convenience".
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 27, 2017 18:41:13 GMT
Looks like Berkley is finally catching up to the general consensus on Dawkins. Really? The Islam/Molestation hubbub was quite some time ago. Dawkins has seriously faded in relevance in the public discourse. At least in the US.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 20:00:53 GMT
Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that you can't provide one bit of evidence that Dawkins ever said what you just said he said. The only thing I can find is Dawkins saying Obama is "probably an atheist". Which I don't have any trouble believing. At best, a "Sunday Christian of convenience". Actually I tend to think that Obama is just a "normal" christian. By which I mean he probably believes, but he's not the kind of guy who makes it the centre of his every action and decision or goes around being an asshole about it. I can see him praying and going to church and stuff, but I can also see him having muslim or atheist friends without feeling the need to tell them they're serving satan. But if he were actually an atheist it wouldn't surprise me at all. I doubt more than one in ten of the politicians in Washington are actually believers, in both parties.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 27, 2017 20:05:37 GMT
The only thing I can find is Dawkins saying Obama is "probably an atheist". Which I don't have any trouble believing. At best, a "Sunday Christian of convenience". Actually I tend to think that Obama is just a "normal" christian. By which I mean he probably believes, but he's not the kind of guy who makes it the centre of his every action and decision or goes around being an asshole about it. I can see him praying and going to church and stuff, but I can also see him having muslim or atheist friends without feeling the need to tell them they're serving satan. But if he were actually an atheist it wouldn't surprise me at all. I doubt more than one in ten of the politicians in Washington are actually believers, in both parties. Trump's sudden transformation into a "Prosperity Gospel" disciple notwithstanding.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 20:06:20 GMT
The Islam/Molestation hubbub was quite some time ago. Dawkins has seriously faded in relevance in the public discourse. At least in the US. Whilst I'm a fan of Dawkins, I think that's fair comment. But I think it reflects the fact that the whole atheist thing has faded in relevance in the public discourse, at least in the US. The so-called "new atheists" made a splash because they spoke up openly and publicly and hit a nerve with many people (either for or against), but could you name any atheist today who is nearly as famous or well known as Dawkins or Hitchens was then? I certainly can't. Last I checked the atheist "movement" was busy arguing with itself about feminism and social justice. Is that over now? The only guy I can think of who approaches the impact Dawkins had these days is Neil de grasse Tyson. Who is an advocate for science rather than atheism. IIRC he even rejects the term atheist for himself, though he technically is one.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 27, 2017 20:13:15 GMT
It did seem a whole lot more "edgy" back then. Kids coming out of college announcing it like they were defiantly standing in the face of an onslaught of oppression. Glad it settled. I got to see him in Chicago recently. I'm glad he doesn't build his whole persona around it the way Dawkins or Hitchens did.
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Post by PanLeo on Jul 29, 2017 12:40:21 GMT
I don't agree with this but I couldn't really care less because I have a deep hatred of Dawkins. He really pissed me off with his bullshit regarding brexit.
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