|
Post by captainbryce on Jul 26, 2017 0:24:31 GMT
No it is not, that much is an opinion. Someone who has been diagnosed with Alzheimers may want to end their life as opposed to suffer the degradation of their mental faculties. How many times does this fallacious logic have to be shut down before you guys stop trying to use it? First of all, as I've already pointed out, most people who suffer from depression never seek treatment. And drugs, alcohol, and mental illness are contributing factors in the vast majority of suicides. So you can't argue with the facts. The statement: "it is almost always stupid &/or irrational" is true from a factual standpoint given the statistics. Secondly, I've already addressed that I'm not referring to people suffering terminal illnesses (final stage cancer was brought up already, as was the example of people jumping out of the world trade center to escape the fire). Obviously, someone who is faced with certain death is morally justified in taking their own life (since they don't really have much of a choice). We're not talking about that. There is no cure for Alzheimer's, there is no cure for terminal cancer, and there is no way to survive burning, collapsing skyscraper. So you're arguing apples and oranges. Depression in and of itself is not a terminal illness! Nobody ever died of "depression"; they died by committing suicide. It was a choice!
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 0:31:07 GMT
Why should it matter whether the motives are selfish or not? This distinction isn't brought up when the topic is slavery or women's suffrage. A person should be free to choose their own fate and not be challenged because others think that person is deficient in selflessness. Selfish slave owners or slaves are selfish for wanting to be free? I'm missing the comparison &/or context.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 0:32:29 GMT
No it is not, that much is an opinion. Someone who has been diagnosed with Alzheimers may want to end their life as opposed to suffer the degradation of their mental faculties. That's why I put almost always. There may be exceptions provided there is never encouragement or an expectation of assistance.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 0:33:27 GMT
the great cultures, rome, japan, demanded suicide if you disgraced yourself That would be an even dumber reason to commit suicide.
|
|
|
Post by Marv on Jul 26, 2017 0:57:54 GMT
This is the type of loaded question I'd expect of someone that's never discussed anything before. But you've been on message boards for years so I'm at a loss.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jul 26, 2017 1:05:29 GMT
No it is not, that much is an opinion. Someone who has been diagnosed with Alzheimers may want to end their life as opposed to suffer the degradation of their mental faculties. How many times does this fallacious logic have to be shut down before you guys stop trying to use it? First of all, as I've already pointed out, most people who suffer from depression never seek treatment. And drugs, alcohol, and mental illness are contributing factors in the vast majority of suicides. So you can't argue with the facts. The statement: "it is almost always stupid &/or irrational" is true from a factual standpoint given the statistics. Secondly, I've already addressed that I'm not referring to people suffering terminal illnesses (final stage cancer was brought up already, as was the example of people jumping out of the world trade center to escape the fire). Obviously, someone who is faced with certain death is morally justified in taking their own life (since they don't really have much of a choice). We're not talking about that. There is no cure for Alzheimer's, there is no cure for terminal cancer, and there is no way to survive burning, collapsing skyscraper. So you're arguing apples and oranges. Depression in and of itself is not a terminal illness! Nobody ever died of "depression"; they died by committing suicide. It was a choice! Alzheimers is not terminal, it's chronic, and it is a special case as you have to commit suicide before the effects take place. And as long as you feel justified in finding the specificity between pedophilia and hebophilia, I will fight against absolute statements.
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jul 26, 2017 1:06:45 GMT
Why should it matter whether the motives are selfish or not? This distinction isn't brought up when the topic is slavery or women's suffrage. A person should be free to choose their own fate and not be challenged because others think that person is deficient in selflessness. I didn't say that it mattered. I'm just asking if that is in fact the case. Whether or not it matters is up for debate. And if you choose to compare suicide (a personal choice to take one's own life) to slavery (a state institution designed to forced others into servitude), then good luck making your argument.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jul 26, 2017 1:07:22 GMT
No it is not, that much is an opinion. Someone who has been diagnosed with Alzheimers may want to end their life as opposed to suffer the degradation of their mental faculties. That's why I put almost always. There may be exceptions provided there is never encouragement or an expectation of assistance. So someone in incredible pain who cannot be saved should not be assisted in ending their life if they do not want to suffer any more?
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jul 26, 2017 1:09:07 GMT
the great cultures, rome, japan, demanded suicide if you disgraced yourself Didn't those "great" cultures ultimately FALL in humiliating military defeats (Rome to the German tribes, and Japan to the United States)?
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 1:09:23 GMT
That's why I put almost always. There may be exceptions provided there is never encouragement or an expectation of assistance. So someone in incredible pain who cannot be saved should not be assisted in ending their life if they do not want to suffer any more? I'm starting to think you want to only partially read my posts. Let's see which part you leave out this time... If someone wants to assist them, then so be it. They should not expect the help.
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jul 26, 2017 1:11:12 GMT
This is the type of loaded question I'd expect of someone that's never discussed anything before. But you've been on message boards for years so I'm at a loss. Personal insults notwithstanding, I'm willing to discuss (in depth) with you anything that you'd like to discuss, and I will answer honestly any question you're willing to ask.
|
|
|
Post by bonerxmas on Jul 26, 2017 1:12:18 GMT
the great cultures, rome, japan, demanded suicide if you disgraced yourself Didn't those "great" cultures ultimately FALL in humiliating military defeats (Rome to the German tribes, and Japan to the United States)? because they stopped suicide form people who failed
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 1:14:30 GMT
How many times does this fallacious logic have to be shut down before you guys stop trying to use it? First of all, as I've already pointed out, most people who suffer from depression never seek treatment. And drugs, alcohol, and mental illness are contributing factors in the vast majority of suicides. So you can't argue with the facts. The statement: "it is almost always stupid &/or irrational" is true from a factual standpoint given the statistics. Secondly, I've already addressed that I'm not referring to people suffering terminal illnesses (final stage cancer was brought up already, as was the example of people jumping out of the world trade center to escape the fire). Obviously, someone who is faced with certain death is morally justified in taking their own life (since they don't really have much of a choice). We're not talking about that. There is no cure for Alzheimer's, there is no cure for terminal cancer, and there is no way to survive burning, collapsing skyscraper. So you're arguing apples and oranges. Depression in and of itself is not a terminal illness! Nobody ever died of "depression"; they died by committing suicide. It was a choice! Alzheimers is not terminal, it's chronic, and it is a special case as you have to commit suicide before the effects take place. And as long as you feel justified in finding the specificity between pedophilia and hebophilia, I will fight against absolute statements. Alzheimer's is viewed as a terminal illness. Eventually & inevitably, it affects brain functions that affect the continuity of life.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jul 26, 2017 1:15:06 GMT
So someone in incredible pain who cannot be saved should not be assisted in ending their life if they do not want to suffer any more? I'm starting to think you want to only partially read my posts. Let's see which part you leave out this time... If someone wants to assist them, then so be it. They should not expect the help. You are just playing semantic games, you are suggesting that assistance is fine as long as the person assisting did not initiate the conversation? What about people who are incapable of ending it by themselves, can they expect help to have their wishes carried out, or is it just the fit and healthy who should be allowed to end their suffering?
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jul 26, 2017 1:18:31 GMT
Alzheimers is not terminal, it's chronic, and it is a special case as you have to commit suicide before the effects take place. And as long as you feel justified in finding the specificity between pedophilia and hebophilia, I will fight against absolute statements. Alzheimer's is viewed as a terminal illness. Eventually & inevitably, it affects brain functions that affect the continuity of life. I stand corrected, however a person in that stage cannot make the decision to kill themselves, a sufferer must make that decision before the effects have progressed beyond them being able to make decisions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 1:21:15 GMT
It's both.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on Jul 26, 2017 2:12:55 GMT
I'm starting to think you want to only partially read my posts. Let's see which part you leave out this time... If someone wants to assist them, then so be it. They should not expect the help. You are just playing semantic games, you are suggesting that assistance is fine as long as the person assisting did not initiate the conversation? What about people who are incapable of ending it by themselves, can they expect help to have their wishes carried out, or is it just the fit and healthy who should be allowed to end their suffering? One important thing to remember is that it's depression itself which sometimes stops people from seeking help.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jul 26, 2017 2:15:43 GMT
You are just playing semantic games, you are suggesting that assistance is fine as long as the person assisting did not initiate the conversation? What about people who are incapable of ending it by themselves, can they expect help to have their wishes carried out, or is it just the fit and healthy who should be allowed to end their suffering? One important thing to remember is that it's depression itself which sometimes stops people from seeking help. Fair call, and to be fair for simply depression I think suicide is a bad option, but the conversation has progressed from the poorly formulated OP.
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jul 26, 2017 3:32:52 GMT
Alzheimer's is viewed as a terminal illness. Eventually & inevitably, it affects brain functions that affect the continuity of life. I stand corrected, however a person in that stage cannot make the decision to kill themselves, a sufferer must make that decision before the effects have progressed beyond them being able to make decisions. A) I'm glad that you conceded that you were in fact wrong about Alzheimer's. Not everyone here has such humility. B) What's your point?
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jul 26, 2017 3:34:23 GMT
One important thing to remember is that it's depression itself which sometimes stops people from seeking help. Fair call, and to be fair for simply depression I think suicide is a bad option, but the conversation has progressed from the poorly formulated OP. The OP was not "poorly formulated" (as that implies an oversight). It was intentionally left vague and simplistic as to spark discussion. And it has succeeded thanks to you and some others here.
|
|