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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 20:27:29 GMT
I think it's up to the individual. There are people who live with chronic pain every single day and no hope of it being fixed. There are people with terminal illness who are going to die but not before they get much worse. People should be able to have control over how they go out and it's selfish in my view to not have compassion or understanding for them.
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Post by general313 on Jul 28, 2017 21:01:36 GMT
I'm curious to see your list of reasons why it's stupid. Making yet another list about this bores me. I'm not realy here to argue the point again and I am making that assessment as a statement of fact rather than debate.
I've said plenty on the subject in the past and it shouldn't come as a shocker that at least a few people would have issues with the notions of suicide being a good thing.
Most reasons should be common sense and if they don't seem that way, then they would hardly be convincing for someone who is pro-suicide as the smart choice.
How about just your top one? Or just link or copy and paste one of your old ones?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 29, 2017 0:47:39 GMT
I'm not basing my view of suicide on my religious beliefs except maybe in the context of valuing life over death. There's plenty of rational reason to counter the stupidity of suicide. Our lives are our journey, and suicide could be seen as a cop-out, however it is not for me to judge somebody who chooses death over their life. It is all illusion anyway, and be it life or death, death is not going to release us from our karma. I'm not judging the victim based on a wrong decision. They may not be able to help themselves. I may pity them because they never got the help, medication, or support they need to understand death is not a relief unless possibly you're going to die soon anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 2:11:47 GMT
I think since almost everyone here already addressed this isn't a fair question, I'm not going to answer this question but give my own opinion about it. I think it's not okay to call people selfish for committing suicide or even having the thoughts about suicide. It's good to be understanding and not try to shame them for it because shaming people only makes their condition worse. We all experience our own suffering so we should be able to relate to each other to some degree, and you should understand that nothing in life is perfect and suicides are understandable even it's not the answer. If you're going to judge someone negatively for killing themselves for whatever reason it shows your own issue of lack of empathy. Therefore, you should focus on where you're flawed in your own way of thinking instead of focusing on someone else's ways of thinking. This would really help you get a better perspective and not to think so black and white. 😊
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 2:43:10 GMT
Our lives are our journey, and suicide could be seen as a cop-out, however it is not for me to judge somebody who chooses death over their life. It is all illusion anyway, and be it life or death, death is not going to release us from our karma. I'm not judging the victim based on a wrong decision. They may not be able to help themselves. I may pity them because they never got the help, medication, or support they need to understand death is not a relief unless possibly you're going to die soon anyway. It's true that death is not relief (assuming that conscious activity ceases after death). But then if you're dead, you don't need the feeling of relief, you simply eliminate the problem altogether. I don't find it "a shocker" that some people are not in favour of suicide, but I want to get people to analyse logically their feelings about suicide. My hunch that if you were to post your list, your reasons would probably be subjectively slanted by your metaphysical/spiritual beliefs about the sanctity of human life and the eternal soul. As far as my own rational arguments against suicide, here are the ones that I've come up with: 1. Some people may be motivated to want to spare their loved ones the grief of losing them, although it should not be expected that a person should willingly make this sacrifice. 2. If the method of suicide is not 100% reliable, then there is a chance of ending up in a far worse situation than the one that you were escaping; although this would be overcome if there were an inalienable right to suicide enshrined into law.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 5:51:58 GMT
As far as my own rational arguments against suicide, here are the ones that I've come up with: 1. Some people may be motivated to want to spare their loved ones the grief of losing them, although it should not be expected that a person should willingly make this sacrifice. 2. If the method of suicide is not 100% reliable, then there is a chance of ending up in a far worse situation than the one that you were escaping; although this would be overcome if there were an inalienable right to suicide enshrined into law. The second one would be the reason why I wouldn't ever want go through with committing suicide no matter how suicidal I felt. It's just not worth the risk and especially knowing that it was self-inflicted. And the stories about people shooting themselves in the head and still somehow surviving scare me so much.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 6:11:19 GMT
Fair call, and to be fair for simply depression I think suicide is a bad option, but the conversation has progressed from the poorly formulated OP. The OP was not "poorly formulated" (as that implies an oversight). It was intentionally left vague and simplistic as to spark discussion. And it has succeeded thanks to you and some others here. I think the fact that you specifically made it into a poll was what made it come across poorly formulated.. Was your intention to have no one vote? :/ I think the right answer would have been no answer because it could be either one or the other of those answers or neither of them depending on the situation. That's why I didn't vote and responded with what I said.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 29, 2017 6:34:17 GMT
As far as my own rational arguments against suicide, here are the ones that I've come up with: 1. Some people may be motivated to want to spare their loved ones the grief of losing them, although it should not be expected that a person should willingly make this sacrifice. 2. If the method of suicide is not 100% reliable, then there is a chance of ending up in a far worse situation than the one that you were escaping; although this would be overcome if there were an inalienable right to suicide enshrined into law. The second one would be the reason why I wouldn't ever want go through with committing suicide no matter how suicidal I felt. It's just not worth the risk and especially knowing that it was self-inflicted. And the stories about people shooting themselves in the head and still somehow surviving scare me so much. I have a friend (well, I haven't seen him in years but we were friends) who shot himself in the head while in High School because of the bullying he had to face for being gay. He survived but suffered a lost eye (not just blind in one eye like me, he has no eyeball), the hearing in one ear and the entire left side of his face is noticeably scarred. It took several reconstructive surgeries to repair the damage to his face enough that he could go out in public without frightening children and even most adults.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 6:54:43 GMT
The second one would be the reason why I wouldn't ever want go through with committing suicide no matter how suicidal I felt. It's just not worth the risk and especially knowing that it was self-inflicted. And the stories about people shooting themselves in the head and still somehow surviving scare me so much. I have a friend (well, I haven't seen him in years but we were friends) who shot himself in the head while in High School because of the bullying he had to face for being gay. He survived but suffered a lost eye (not just blind in one eye like me, he has no eyeball), the hearing in one ear and the entire left side of his face is noticeably scarred. It took several reconstructive surgeries to repair the damage to his face enough that he could go out in public without frightening children and even most adults. That is so sad 😔 It just brings another topic on how bullying should be stopped because it can cause so much harm on others. I agree with taking action against bullying even if it means the bully get expelled. I remember my dad saying he knew a guy that shot himself in the mouth I think and lived too, but he became very fortunate and was left with almost no scars or anything. I think he lucked out because of a certain angle he missed. I don't remember specifically the whole story but it sounded like a miracle. It was a really long time ago when he said this so I'm actually not sure if this was someone he actually knew or something he read about.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 29, 2017 13:30:48 GMT
The OP was not "poorly formulated" (as that implies an oversight). It was intentionally left vague and simplistic as to spark discussion. And it has succeeded thanks to you and some others here. I think the fact that you specifically made it into a poll was what made it come across poorly formulated.. Was your intention to have no one vote? :/ I think the right answer would have been no answer because it could be either one or the other of those answers or neither of them depending on the situation. That's why I didn't vote and responded with what I said. My intent was to see how many people were more likely to vote that it was okay, or "acceptable" with no qualifiers, than to say it was selfish. Giving people less options can cut to the chase much faster and give a pretty good handle on which side a person is more likely to lean. It can also (as I said) spark objection and discussion (which was also my intent). Anyone who felt strongly that the options were too narrow would not be inclined to vote (as yourself). But you still responded.
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Post by koskiewicz on Jul 30, 2017 18:00:18 GMT
...suicide is final...neither selfish nor OK...
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 31, 2017 13:35:25 GMT
@miccee
The problem is that the problem itself may be non-existent and more than a bullet to the brain could alleviate a fake problem. The overwhelming majority of my opinions are based on logic. My views on suicide are no different.
I'm not sure what is so logical about the "sacrifice" of staying alive without regard to the help one could get from professionals or loved ones.
If the person care at all about their loved ones to factor this into a reason to avoid suicide, then they should just avoid it. There's no reason for a law.
The only thing a law would do is mandate society's acceptance of it which will eventually lead to mandatory assistance of it. It would be a disaster.
It's best to let people who are intent on killing themselves not expect aid in such a foolish decision or educate them on the ways that committing suicide or trying to commit suicide isn't a cure all.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 31, 2017 13:39:27 GMT
Making yet another list about this bores me. I'm not realy here to argue the point again and I am making that assessment as a statement of fact rather than debate.
I've said plenty on the subject in the past and it shouldn't come as a shocker that at least a few people would have issues with the notions of suicide being a good thing.
Most reasons should be common sense and if they don't seem that way, then they would hardly be convincing for someone who is pro-suicide as the smart choice.
How about just your top one? Or just link or copy and paste one of your old ones? The top one would probably be that suicide is almost always based on the assumption that a person's worth is so low, it's not worth living.
However, the value of our life is not so slight as to be based on merely one opinion and that one opinion is always wrong and based on limited or skewed realities.
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Post by general313 on Jul 31, 2017 15:02:08 GMT
How about just your top one? Or just link or copy and paste one of your old ones? The top one would probably be that suicide is almost always based on the assumption that a person's worth is so low, it's not worth living.
However, the value of our life is not so slight as to be based on merely one opinion and that one opinion is always wrong and based on limited or skewed realities.
I don't agree. Suicide is a decision taken when the overall quality of life is judged to be negative. It has nothing to do with a person's worth. In many cases suffering from incurable physical conditions is the cause of the negative quality of life. What is stupid about preferring death to a tortured existence?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 31, 2017 15:15:39 GMT
The top one would probably be that suicide is almost always based on the assumption that a person's worth is so low, it's not worth living.
However, the value of our life is not so slight as to be based on merely one opinion and that one opinion is always wrong and based on limited or skewed realities.
I don't agree. Suicide is a decision taken when the overall quality of life is judged to be negative. It has nothing to do with a person's worth. In many cases suffering from incurable physical conditions is the cause of the negative quality of life. What is stupid about preferring death to a tortured existence? I would disagree with the notion that quality of life is in and of itself the root cause of suicidal tendencies.
The quality of life is often tied to the value of it.
If one finds their life worthless, then of course the quality of it said life would suck.
It's rarely a case that quality of life exists within a vacuum without underlying, and misguided imo, factors that leads one to such an irrational conclusion.
Everyone keeps bring up the notion of a terminal illness.
Although I think there are perfectly good reasons to live through such things, I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up as if it's the only reason or even the most popular reason people kill themselves.
If people are thinking I'm primarily discussing these ones, then let's just assume that killing oneself because they are going to die from some horrible, disgusting, painful malady is a point in your column and move on from it.
This is the reason I hate listing out reasons, because I have to add that every single time despite saying it in previous posts in this very thread.
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Post by general313 on Jul 31, 2017 18:55:28 GMT
I don't agree. Suicide is a decision taken when the overall quality of life is judged to be negative. It has nothing to do with a person's worth. In many cases suffering from incurable physical conditions is the cause of the negative quality of life. What is stupid about preferring death to a tortured existence? I would disagree with the notion that quality of life is in and of itself the root cause of suicidal tendencies.
The quality of life is often tied to the value of it.
If one finds their life worthless, then of course the quality of it said life would suck.
It's rarely a case that quality of life exists within a vacuum without underlying, and misguided imo, factors that leads one to such an irrational conclusion.
Everyone keeps bring up the notion of a terminal illness.
Although I think there are perfectly good reasons to live through such things, I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up as if it's the only reason or even the most popular reason people kill themselves.
If people are thinking I'm primarily discussing these ones, then let's just assume that killing oneself because they are going to die from some horrible, disgusting, painful malady is a point in your column and move on from it.
This is the reason I hate listing out reasons, because I have to add that every single time despite saying it in previous posts in this very thread.
Most often the root cause of suicidal tendencies is depression. It is an extremely serious and often difficult to treat medical condition, and can sometimes last for decades. I know because I had a friend that suffered for decades, tried many treatments and life changes over these years, and ultimately gave up. Modern medicine often is unable to relieve chronic cases. Can a feeling of worthlessness accompany depression? Certainly, but it is also most certainly not the root cause of depression. Other common symptoms are sadness, anxiousness, and listlessness. A non-mental cause of suffering is often cited for simplicity, but in many cases the suffering is a mental condition, often incurable. I think it takes a good measure of impudence and disrespect to suggest that the actions of these people are stupid.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 31, 2017 19:19:33 GMT
They're stupid decisions. We make them all the time.
That doesn't mean the person is stupid.
Anything that ends your life on the basis of an incorrect view of that life is, to put it in anicer way, unwise.
I wish people would stop getting offend by the simplest word to use and focus (Pick whatever synonym you want) instead explain whether it's OK to be saying that a person who is depressed should just kill themselves to end the misery.
I say no.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 19:48:48 GMT
@miccee The problem is that the problem itself may be non-existent and more than a bullet to the brain could alleviate a fake problem. If the person in distress feels there to be a problem, then there's a problem. The individual may have a mental illness which causes them to perceive that threats exist where in objective reality there are none (for example paranoid schizophrenia). But the very fact of living in terror is itself a problem, and it should be the right of that individual to determine whether or not the problem requires suicide as a solution. If someone's thinking is distorted because they have depression, then the thing that they are worrying about may not be real (something like 'everyone would be better off if I were dead' or 'everyone hates me'), but the fact that it has a negative impact on their life is a real problem. Are your theistic beliefs just the one small exception, then? Your logic on the issue of suicide is based on the notion that non-existence is an inherently negative state. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that the dead perceive their condition negatively. Some conditions cannot be helped (and not necessarily the types of things that are caused by illnesses, but also just the general requirements of life). For example, some people may just not wish to have to work 40 + hours a day for somebody else until they reach age 70. Or some people may work in low wage jobs and have a hardscrabble, hand to mouth existence which would be difficult to rise out of. It's an individual's prerogative if they want to sacrifice their suffering in order to spare someone else suffering; but it should not be a baseline expectation that the suicidal will do so. The reason for such a law would be that it would allow people the right to a humane, dignified and risk-free exit. Since nobody consented to being born, the burden should not be placed on them to take a great risk and inflict gruesome harm upon their physical body in order to escape a situation that someone else put them in (and which society at large sanctioned). Such a law would not mandate you to personally assist someone with suicide if they requested that of you; it would simply mean that the suicidal would have the right to form a contract with someone who was happy to help them with suicide, preferably a doctor or someone with the relevant training and expertise.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 20:01:04 GMT
I wish people would stop getting offend by the simplest word to use and focus (Pick whatever synonym you want) instead explain whether it's OK to be saying that a person who is depressed should just kill themselves to end the misery. It is "OK" (or should be, anyway) because it's their life and they should be allowed to discard it for whatever reason they see fit. They're the ones who would have to live with the condition, and not you. Therefore it's not for you to say whether or not their suffering is "worth it". If they do successfully discard their life, there is no evidence that they will go on to experience lingering regret after their death, or be experiencing a state in which they go on to feel deprived of the things that they may have otherwise enjoyed had they decided to "get help". And even if there were evidence that they would experience that deprivation, it should still ultimately be up to them, because society does offer scope for people to make decisions that they will regret for a long time.
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