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Post by geode on Aug 7, 2017 20:43:04 GMT
Although I am a Christian, I am not what one would term a conservative Evangelical Christian. But I think this pastor makes good points. Pastor
"Many Christians are preaching grace and mercy and we’re very good at saying folks don’t need to get their acts together before coming to Christ as Savior – but our treatment of the lost contradicts our confession. We don’t own the message we’re preaching. Compassion? Love? Are you kidding me? We’re very angry at sinners. It’s obvious – and it’s twisted. We wonder why people are turned off by Christianity. I have news for us: it’s not Jesus who is offending people much these days. It’s us, his followers. I fear that a large sector of Christianity in America needs to get saved all over again, and I say that with tears, fear and a good deal of trembling."
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Post by gadreel on Aug 7, 2017 21:04:17 GMT
Although I am a Christian, I am not what one would term a conservative Evangelical Christian. But I think this pastor makes good points. Pastor
"Many Christians are preaching grace and mercy and we’re very good at saying folks don’t need to get their acts together before coming to Christ as Savior – but our treatment of the lost contradicts our confession. We don’t own the message we’re preaching. Compassion? Love? Are you kidding me? We’re very angry at sinners. It’s obvious – and it’s twisted. We wonder why people are turned off by Christianity. I have news for us: it’s not Jesus who is offending people much these days. It’s us, his followers. I fear that a large sector of Christianity in America needs to get saved all over again, and I say that with tears, fear and a good deal of trembling." Agree completely.
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Moviefan
Sophomore
@allaby
Posts: 565
Likes: 284
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Post by Moviefan on Aug 7, 2017 22:14:56 GMT
I agree. We need to be more compassionate, loving, and accepting.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 8, 2017 9:05:43 GMT
Although I am a Christian, I am not what one would term a conservative Evangelical Christian. But I think this pastor makes good points. Pastor
"Many Christians are preaching grace and mercy and we’re very good at saying folks don’t need to get their acts together before coming to Christ as Savior – but our treatment of the lost contradicts our confession. We don’t own the message we’re preaching. Compassion? Love? Are you kidding me? We’re very angry at sinners. It’s obvious – and it’s twisted. Apropos the idea of a religion finding its calling again, here is something from off the BBC:
[/p][/p]
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Post by geode on Aug 8, 2017 14:42:38 GMT
Although I am a Christian, I am not what one would term a conservative Evangelical Christian. But I think this pastor makes good points. Pastor
"Many Christians are preaching grace and mercy and we’re very good at saying folks don’t need to get their acts together before coming to Christ as Savior – but our treatment of the lost contradicts our confession. We don’t own the message we’re preaching. Compassion? Love? Are you kidding me? We’re very angry at sinners. It’s obvious – and it’s twisted. Apropos the idea of a religion finding its calling again, here is something from off the BBC:
It is good to see that this movement has started in Islam. One of my complaints in some Christian denominations is the existence of exclusivity. Christ was into inclusivity. But then I favor more inclusivity than many Christians in that I think Muslims, Jews, and Christians all believe in the same God, the God of Abraham. [/p][/p][/quote]
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 8, 2017 17:46:45 GMT
Not sure why he keeps saying "we".
There's no reason for a Christian to feel guilty based on what other Christians do.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 9, 2017 10:02:50 GMT
Not sure why he keeps saying "we". There's no reason for a Christian to feel guilty based on what other Christians do. But didn't JC die on the cross for what some did? And aren't we still, today, supposed to bear that guilt?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 9, 2017 11:01:37 GMT
Not sure why he keeps saying "we". There's no reason for a Christian to feel guilty based on what other Christians do. But didn't JC die on the cross for what some did? And aren't we still, today, supposed to bear that guilt? I'm not sure what guilt you feel you're supposed to bear. Are you saying jesus died because he was guilty of what some did?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 9, 2017 11:07:49 GMT
But didn't JC die on the cross for what some did? And aren't we still, today, supposed to bear that guilt? I'm not sure what guilt you feel you're supposed to bear. Are you saying jesus died because he was guilty of what some did? No I am saying that, supposedly, we all bear guilt in the form of sin. Presumably to deny this would be to deny the worth of JC's sacrifice and what it was for.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Aug 9, 2017 11:14:35 GMT
Not sure why he keeps saying "we". There's no reason for a Christian to feel guilty based on what other Christians do. Really? I guess you feel the same way about Muslims then?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 9, 2017 11:32:17 GMT
I'm not sure what guilt you feel you're supposed to bear. Are you saying jesus died because he was guilty of what some did? No I am saying that, supposedly, we all bear guilt in the form of sin. Presumably to deny this would be to deny the worth of JC's sacrifice and what it was for. We are not guilty based on the particular actions of the few as the writer is suggesting and what I was commenting on. However, we are not guilty of sin just because we inherited it. After all, even perfect people can sin. We sin often so we personally earn that. Jesus' sacrifice is based on the notion of us being constant screw-ups and acknowledging that increasing the appreciation of it [for some] rather than lessen it.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 9, 2017 11:33:48 GMT
Not sure why he keeps saying "we". There's no reason for a Christian to feel guilty based on what other Christians do. Really? I guess you feel the same way about Muslims then? Not sure what you mean or what you think I think of Muslims. However, I'll restate it for clarity: There's no reason for a Muslim to feel guilty based on what other Muslims do.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Aug 9, 2017 11:39:57 GMT
Really? I guess you feel the same way about Muslims then? Not sure what you mean or what you think I think of Muslims. However, I'll restate it for clarity: There's no reason for a Muslim to feel guilty based on what other Muslims do. That's good. I assumed you were being a hypocrite, my apologies.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 9, 2017 11:49:27 GMT
No I am saying that, supposedly, we all bear guilt in the form of sin. Presumably to deny this would be to deny the worth of JC's sacrifice and what it was for. We are not guilty based on the particular actions of the few as the writer is suggesting and what I was commenting on. However, we are not guilty of sin just because we inherited it. After all, even perfect people can sin. We sin often so we personally earn that. Jesus' sacrifice is based on the notion of us being constant screw-ups and acknowledging that increasing the appreciation of it [for some] rather than lessen it. Were not the purported actions of Adam of Eve necessarily those of 'a few'?
Are you saying that we have not inherited their guilt?
And that JC died just to increase our 'appreciation' of sin? How much do we have to have to be a real fan of it, then?
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 9, 2017 13:18:04 GMT
I'm not sure what guilt you feel you're supposed to bear. Are you saying jesus died because he was guilty of what some did? No I am saying that, supposedly, we all bear guilt in the form of sin. Presumably to deny this would be to deny the worth of JC's sacrifice and what it was for. The way I had always interpreted it was that those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior (i.e. Christians) bear no guilt, because they are redeemed from sin based on their faith in Christ. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Romans 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 9, 2017 13:21:29 GMT
The way I had always interpreted it was that those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior (i.e. Christians) bear no guilt, In which case it is remarkable how many believers regularly pray for forgiveness regardless, or indeed have the need for confession.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 9, 2017 13:22:31 GMT
We are not guilty based on the particular actions of the few as the writer is suggesting and what I was commenting on. However, we are not guilty of sin just because we inherited it. After all, even perfect people can sin. We sin often so we personally earn that. Jesus' sacrifice is based on the notion of us being constant screw-ups and acknowledging that increasing the appreciation of it [for some] rather than lessen it. Were not the purported actions of Adam of Eve necessarily those of 'a few'?
Are you saying that we have not inherited their guilt?
And that JC died just to increase our 'appreciation' of sin? How much do we have to have to be a real fan of it, then?
Romans 5:18-19 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 9, 2017 13:27:09 GMT
The way I had always interpreted it was that those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior (i.e. Christians) bear no guilt, In which case it is remarkable how many believers regularly pray for forgiveness regardless, or indeed have the need for confession. According to Christian doctrine, part of accepting Jesus is following his commandments and his examples, which includes praying for forgiveness. Matthew 6:9-13 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ There is a difference between acknowledging the truth of one's sinful nature, and bearing the guilt of that sin. 1 John 1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 9, 2017 13:27:11 GMT
Were not the purported actions of Adam of Eve necessarily those of 'a few'?
Are you saying that we have not inherited their guilt?
And that JC died just to increase our 'appreciation' of sin? How much do we have to have to be a real fan of it, then?
Romans 5:18-19 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Look like Original Sin has been abolished folks...
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 9, 2017 13:38:03 GMT
There is a difference between acknowledging the truth of one's sinful nature, and bearing the guilt of that sin.
Indeed. But if one can have sinned through a sinful nature and yet be innocent of guilt for it then Christian morality collapses.
The Bible also specifically associates the two, several times, quite explicitly:
Ps. 32:5 - "Thou did forgive the guilt of my sin" Mk. 3:29 - "guilty of an eternal sin" Jere. 51:5 - "Israel and Judah...their land is full of guilt"
Also the only 'truth' as you would have it, or proof, of such a sinful nature would be necessarily and demonstrably malign.
And it still leaves the question of why if one is indeed innocent, and only sinful 'in nature' then it is common, even necessary, to pray for forgiveness or attend Confession. One cannot help one's nature, it was given by God, presumably, so why ask God to forgive the working of that which He has bestowed? (Is it the same logic by which we praise the deity for being that which He cannot help?) But then again, in Isiah He does admit to creating evil.
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