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Post by ag25 on May 12, 2018 0:03:12 GMT
4-28-1998/2018 - I Only Have Eyes for You
Sorry for the delay!
Anyway, finally we are back and can get into the final stretch of season 2. First, I just wanted to say how much I loved the title to this episode; it is so perfect.
This is such a wonderful episode. I love that it is different from what we have seen before and very emotionally charged. Having Buffy and Giles deal with their emotions from the fallout with Angelus and Jenny's death for most of an entire episode, was, I think, brilliant!
Whenever I watch the scene between Buffy and Angelus/James and Grace, I can't help but think that the writers really wanted that scene between them, so they wrote the entire episode around that scene, lol; they thought "how can we have Buffy and Angelus in an emotional scene and air out their mistakes/problems, but still not restore Angelus' soul?" And here is what we got...and I love it! I thought it was cleaver, beautiful, and very creative. Also, having the themes of guilt and forgiveness was great. Buffy's unwillingness to forgive Angel(us) (and most likely herself) based mainly upon her guilt is fantastic and an interesting juxtaposition with Angel's overall redemption arc. I love that Giles points out to Buffy that "forgiveness isn't given because people deserve it, it's given because people need it;" I absolutely agree with and love that statement. I also love that James' spirit identified with Buffy.
On a side note, is it wrong that I have to give a little giggle every time Buffy/James says "bitch!" in her speech to Grace/Angelus at the climax of the episode? I think it is the editing of it that makes me laugh. Instead of having James say half the line and then cut to Buffy saying the other half of the line, we get the fast cut to her yelling out "bitch!" in a very emotionally powerful scene ,and it is very jarring to me as the scene is certainly not comical.
One criticism I will give are the snakes. I did not feel they were needed and am not sure that it connected with the ghost's storyline. However, I did like that as a side effect of the snake infestation and Principal Snyder having to explain them, we got to see the writers plant the seeds/introduce/foreshadow the Mayor as a character/villain for season 3 as well as show that Snyder and the commissioner(?) knows about the supernatural world.
I love that the gang has to kind of figure the ghost story mystery out on their own without Giles, as he believes it is Jenny, and the Scoobies (and the audience) know it is not. Having them work together, figure it out, and come up with a solution (despite it not working) was great. I liked that we were still seeing how Jenny's death is affecting Giles.
Switching gears to Angelus, Drusilla, and Spike, I like how they portrayed Dru's vision here; her dialogue was not as vague and it set up Buffy and Angelus' climactic scene. Aww, poor Spike, Angelus is always giving him a hard time, lol. I found it interesting that Spike was not as "aggressive" in his interactions with Angelus as they usually are, but of course this is probably because he is being sneaky and reveals that he has healed and does not need the wheelchair anymore. I noticed that Angelus/David growled several times in response to Dru. Normally it is her making the growling noises, but I guess David picked up on that cue and responded with a few of his own as Angelus. It is a little thing, but good acting "reacting" from David and a nod to Angelus and Drusilla's relationship; a nice touch.
Of course, I have to say hats off to Sarah and David's acting but I think everyone did a great job, and all characters we used well.
Overall, a great episode, and a great prelude (not counting Go Fish) to the 2 part season 2 finale!
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Post by ag25 on May 12, 2018 3:35:08 GMT
5-5-1998/2018 - Go Fish
David Fury's first episode, yay! He is one of my favorite Buffy/Angel writers.
This was an interesting episode. I liked that Buffy, Xander, and Willow and to a lesser extent Giles and Cordelia, each had significant roles involving the swim team and solving the mystery. I liked the design of the sea creatures and that the guys weren't being killed by them but instead turning into them. That was different.
I like that this episode has an anti steroid message as well as a little bit of an anti sexual harassment/assault message. And focusing on the swim team instead of the football or basketball teams was a nice change. I thought it was different and cleaver that the steroids were in the steam as opposed to more traditional methods of taking them.
I did find it weird that Cameron randomly and suddenly asked Buffy if she was wearing a bra. It was so out of the blue. I get what the episode was trying to show, but it was really random.
I love that in true Buffy fashion, it is Buffy, the girl, who has to protect Gage, the guy, and it is Gage who get attacked by Angelus and is scared and wants Buffy to walk him home and protect him.
Aww, Cordelia was so sweet when she was talking to the sea monster thinking that it was Xander. It nicely shows some of her personal character growth. Also, we are shown her sketching the sea monster; I did not know that Cordy could draw before the Angel episode Parting Gifts when she got the visions. How interesting.
Yay for Xander rescuing Buffy! I thought this was done well and realistically in a situation where Xander would have to rescue Buffy. Also, I love Buffy's confrontation with the coach. The dialogue is hilarious!
I found it unique that instead of killing the monsters they just go off into the sea. Again, different.
Observation, is this the first episode that Jonathan is named in?
This episode was a good, and a little bit of a different, monster of the week episode. On to the season 2 finale part 1!
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Post by mmexis on May 12, 2018 23:48:12 GMT
And of course Xander in a Speedo before they told him not to be too buff.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 21, 2018 13:58:50 GMT
His dive into the pool is still hilarious.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 21, 2018 14:46:48 GMT
His dive into the pool is still hilarious. Nah, it wasn't funny then, and it's not funny now.
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Post by ag25 on May 30, 2018 22:25:13 GMT
His dive into the pool is still hilarious.
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Post by ag25 on May 30, 2018 22:25:56 GMT
And of course Xander in a Speedo before they told him not to be too buff.
Yeah, Nick looked pretty good!
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Post by ag25 on Jun 1, 2018 1:51:54 GMT
5-12-1998/2018 - Becoming Part 1 5-19-1998/2018 - Becoming Part 2
Ok, so now we are done with season 2, and what a great finale (and overall season) it was! As a two part finale I think it did a great job all around. I think it can be difficult for a TV show to have both parts of a two part finale be well written and interesting for the audience. Often, part one is the set up and can come off as boring when most people want to get to the big conclusion where action and confrontations are. Here with Becoming Parts 1 and 2, I think both hold my attention, are emotional, and have great payoffs, while still operating as two separate episodes; they are each unique enough on their own yet are tied together so well. I don't mean to state the obvious, just that I can see the individual strong points of each part and their strong points together, lol. Going back to my original point, I think Part 1 is just as strong, memorable, and emotional as Part 2. Both the Buffy and Angel series are good at doing that in my opinion.
I want to point out that this is another narrated episode. This makes only four episodes total in both Buffy and Angel that are narrated. Passion was the first, then Becoming Part 1, Beauty and the Beasts is next, and, later on over on Angel in season 2, Redefinition. Excluding Redefinition, the other three are quite close together. This is interesting. Was this intended to become a thing for some episodes in later season or not?
While everyone is great in these episodes, I am still amazed by David's performance in Part 1. That he had to act and change his "characters" so radically and frequently in just one episode (two if you count his transformation back into Angel at the end of Part 2) is fantastic! Not only did he have to go back and forth between Angel and Angelus, but he had to play them at different points in their lives where their characterizations were different than what he had already played in the previous seasons. In addition, he also had to play Angel's human form of Liam, something David hadn't done before, and he knocked it out of the park! Just, wow! If I remember correctly, I believe Angel was supposed to die/not come back in season 3 after being sucked into the Acathla portal/hell dimension, but it was David's performance in Part 1 that had Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt so impressed that they wanted to give Angel his own show. And boy, I definitely think he deserved it!
Going off if that, I think it's funny that Angel, Drusilla, and Spike were all supposed to be killed off in season 2, and yet none of them were, and all (including Darla on Angel) went on to have much bigger roles in both series. Which I loved because I think they are all great characters.
While I love all of the flashbacks, I love that one with human Dru and Angelus in the convent. Not only is the acting great, but the dialogue is fantastic; both of them referring to the other as "father" and "my child" is such great foreshadowing, Dru wanting to be a good person and "pure" and how Angelus mocks it and will take it all away from her is so good! It's so tragic and it makes me feel so sad for Dru. She is the only one out of her, Angel, Spike, and Darla who does not get redemption, especially since she is the only one who did not ask (or at least didn't have a problem with) to become a vampire. I think they may have addressed this in the comics and it didn't work out for Dru, but still, sad. But, this, I believe, is the first out of only four episodes in the entire series of both Buffy and Angel that the Fanged Four are all together in an episode. Pity we didn't have any flashbacks with the four of them interacting with each other; and despite Darla only appearing at the beginning, I still loved seeing all four of them in one episode!
Speaking of flashbacks, as I was watching Part 1, I felt that it was very similar to Angel's series premier City of , in the beats of the storyline. From Angel's history as a human and a vampire, to him meeting a good demon who tells Angel that he can help people and become someone, to Angel being inspired to change/be a champion/work for the good guys by a girl (Buffy/Cordelia) and them providing him a connection to the living world. Both episodes are similar, yet very different.
It's interesting that both Angel and Spike have said that they wanted to save the world when they both did not have their souls. Now, both were in very different circumstances (Angelus in season 4 of Angel pretending to be Angel and Spike here in Part 2) but I found it really funny and kind of cool.
I loved seeing beginner Slayer Buffy!
I really liked that Kendra reappeared. I do wish though that we could have seen her and Buffy fight Angelus together. Have Angelus (or maybe Dru) kill Kendra to up the stakes and emotion even more, and then end it like they did. I think that would have been different and pretty cool!
The Xander/Willow scene at the hospital is sweet, and I know he loves her as his best friend, but was this scene intended to be romantic? I have always gotten those vibes and I find it random in terms of where Xander and Willow are as characters.
I still hate that Xander lied to Buffy telling her that Willow said to "kick his ass" and choosing not to tell her that Willow was going try to reensoul Angel again. He let his emotions and prejudices get in the way; if this was the only time or even the last time he did it I would be more lenient, but it really takes until season 7 that he really starts to grow up and let go of his prejudices. Now, I know that the argument in favor of Xander's actions is that if he told Buffy that they were trying to save Angel then she would not have fought as hard as she did and would have likely gotten killed. Yes, it was a factor that Buffy did want Angel back, but to a larger point that she herself made, if Buffy failed to stop Angelus, then they needed to try and reensoul him as a back up plan to stop him and save the world. She was not just looking at it from a personal point of view (yes, her personal feelings were certainly a part of it) but also looking at the bigger picture. As was Willow. Now Giles had a personal interest in it because, as he said, it seemed to be Jenny's final wish (I still can't believe Xander's response to that was "well Jenny's dead." That was way over the line.) but, in my opinion, the Scoobies needed to do everything in their power to stop Acathla and performing the ritual to reensoul Angel was an additional option. If it failed, then at least they tried. I think I would look at Xander more favorably if the writers had put in a nice meaningful scene between Xander and Buffy where he does tell her that Willow is trying the spell again, BUT that Buffy needs to not let that stop her from fighting her hardest. Because things can go wrong, the spell might not work, Angelus could awaken Acathla before the spell was preformed (just like what happened), etc. If Xander told her in a NICE way instead of the jerky prejudiced way he did, I think it would have been a really nice scene between them. Also, it would have been Xander giving her a reality check, which Buffy would most likely have rejected at first, but then later in the scene where Angelus corners Buffy and asks her "what is left" and she responds "me" it would have been even more empowering/emotional (not that it wasn't, it most definitely was, but even more) and would have connected Xander with saving the world even more; that he did his part/was more involved. Because, was Xander really needed in the climax? I don't think he really needed to be there because Buffy would have rescued Giles after the portal closed with Angel. (Ok PreachCaleb I am very interested in what you have to say about Xander's actions as well as the episode. We can finally talk about it now, lol!)
Giles' torture scene(s) is interesting because as much as I morbidly want to know what Angelus was doing to him, on the other hand not knowing and it being left to the audience's imagination is more horrifying. I know he broke Giles' fingers, but Angelus was torturing him for a while and we saw blood, so he had to have done other things to Giles.
I loved Jenny's cameo! It's nice to see her again, even if it is only a mirage/not real, so we aren't left with just her death in Passion. Drusilla was so funny getting "caught up in the moment." Now, regarding her hypnosis thing she does, it is interesting that we have only seen Dru, The Master, and Dracula do different variations of this. Why can only they do it? Or why can't more/other vampires do it?
I love the scenes with Joyce. Kristine was so good and I am glad that Joyce finally found out about the supernatural world and that Buffy is the Slayer. I have never liked that Joyce told Buffy that if "she walked out the door that she shouldn't even think about coming back." Most of the time the parent doesn't mean it and the child with still do it anyway, so it is never a good idea. But I do get why it is included. It is wonderfully acted and written scene between them.
Alright, while I can go on and on about how wonderful these pair of episodes are, I won't as I have rambled on for long enough. Ultimately, I think this was a brilliant two part finale to an amazing season, and a great set up for the next! The writing, acting, everything was on point for me, and I can't wait until we can start season 3!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 7, 2018 22:48:22 GMT
A well thought out written piece, ag. You've covered everything I love about this episode and so much more. Becoming pt 1 and 2 I feel are the pinnacle of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. They have everything that made the show amazing. Drama, humor, darkness, action, death. It is the perfect pay off to the entirety of season 2 and the Buffy/Angel love story. I honestly don't know what else to add in regards to singing its praises. It still touches me to this day.
I would add "Spin the Bottle" to episodes that are narrated. Andy Hallet does a wonderful job carrying the episode, and his closing scene is heartbreaking now following his death. "Always leave them wanting more."
Now, onto Xander's actions. Oh boy, where to begin. I'll sort of follow along with you.
Yes, this was not the first time Xander let his emotions and prejudices regarding vampires, Angel in particular, lead him on. But I don't blame him for that. Vampires killed one of his closest friends. And now, another one of his closest friends is in love with one, and continues to be in love with him despite what a murderous animal he's become. It's consistent with his character. Xander should be hostile to Angel. I can't fault him for taking a long time to really deal with that. It's a grey area that a 17-year old (let's not forget that part) would not be able to reconcile so easily.
Xander's reply of "Well, Jenny's dead" is blunt. But it does prove a point. Wishing has not done anything to change Angel back from being a monster. And anyone who tries ends up paying a price, something even Willow does when the Scoobies are attacked.
Re-ensouling Angel was always an option regardless of what Xander told Buffy, so the Scoobies were doing everything in their power to save the world. Her knowledge of it didn't affect what Willow was doing. "Kick his ass" was exactly the kick in the ass Buffy herself needed. She'd been too lenient on Angel for months, and it had cost many lives. With the fate of the world at stake (no pun intended), there was no margin for error.
Unless Angel has Giles killed out of spite while Buffy is fighting his gang. Plus, it's a nice call back to the finale of season 1. Xander was there at Buffy's side. And of course, it plays on his, "You're gonna die, and I'm gonna be there," possibly one of Xander's greatest hero moments.
This is actually where we see Xander's actions were correct. Even with Spike betraying Angel, and Xander helping to take out a vamp, Buffy was too late to stop Angel. Acathla was awakened. Had Buffy held back and been killed by Angelus, nothing could've saved the world. A re-ensouled Angel wouldn't be any use. He wouldn't know how to stop Acathla even if he'd gotten his soul back, he barely knew how to awaken it.
Xander's actions will always be controversial. And I can certainly understand why a large portion of the fanbase will side against Xander on this one. However, the unfolded events support that Xander may have been in the right. And even once the lie does come out, the characters don't really care too much about it (though I admit I would've loved to have seen that scene play out more).
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Post by ag25 on Jun 20, 2018 23:48:15 GMT
I'm responding to your points in order PreachCaleb . Hope it is not confusing, lol.
Aww, thank your so much, Caleb. That is so nice of your to say! Yes, Becoming Parts 1 and 2 (and Passion) still touch me to this day as well. That, for me, is the mark of an excellent show that can stand the test of time. To still get the feelings and emotions you felt for an episode/show 20 years after you first watched it (as I still do when I rewatch both Angel and Buffy episodes) is amazing! As much as I agree with you that season 2 was the pinnacle for the Buffy/Angel love story and a great pay off, I personally look at it as a part 1 with season 3 being the part 2 (or even part 3 of a trilogy if we count season 1) because I think season 3 ties everything up in a neater (cleaner in terms of writing) way. We get more closure with the end of season 3 than at the end of season 2, which if the series had ended there, I personally would have been kind of depressed about and in need of more closure. Admittedly, season 3 is my favorite season with season 2 coming in second, so I am biased, lol. However, I absolutely do agree with you in that the finale has everything in it; it's amazing, beautifully executed in all ways from writing to production to acting, and I do see the merit, boldness, and poignancy in the ending of the finale (in terms of the sadness and gravity of what happened for Buffy and the gang).
Spin the Bottle is one of my favorite Angel episodes! Andy did a fantastic job, and I am grateful that we have is wonderful voice and lovely performances preserved on the show even though he is gone. In regards to narration, I was only thinking of including episodes where we don't see the narrator talking, but you are right that it is narrated. I am just explaining why it didn't initially occur to me to include it.Now, onto Xander's actions. Oh boy, where to begin. I'll sort of follow along with you.
You make some excellent points, Caleb, and I agree with them to an extent. Yes, it makes total sense for Xander to be prejudiced against vampires as a result of Jesse's death and his concern for Buffy. Xander's outlook on vampires is entirely correct for the character and I don't blame him for that and for the reasons why he feels that way. What I take issue with is his jealousy and possessiveness over Buffy and how this manifests in his actions and what he says, as well as I can't help but think that the main reason Xander joined up with Buffy instead of doing what he was told, was that he knew Buffy was most likely going to kill Angel/Angelus and he wanted to be there to see it, hence his "kick his ass" lie to Buffy (I am talking about Xander's character motivations about being at the mansion, not in terms of writing; yes, the writers needed Xander there to rescue Giles). If Xander truly hated all vampires and didn't let his prejudices get in the way, then why isn't he prejudiced against Harmony? Why isn't he advocating that Buffy stake her? Harmony may be dumb, but she can be dangerous when she wants to be. (Speaking of Xander and Harmony, their "fight" in season 4(or 5?) is still hilarious to me!)
Yes, again good point, but it is the way in which he said it, again letting his emotions and prejudices get in the way. Cordelia actually had a much better response (as well as Kendra). She was being objective and actually sided with Xander while saying the points you just made (if I remember correctly) yet she did so in a much less antagonistic way.
Another good point, but one that while I agree on the surface, I am under the impression that this was what Passion was for. Buffy was being too lenient on Angelus and not ready to kill him, but Jenny's death and Angelus' upping the ante was supposed to give Buffy the "kick in the ass" to confront him. This is why I wish the episode was closer to the finale. I disagree. Yes, you are correct in most of what you say. For me, it is Xander's motivations for why he lies to Buffy that I take issue with. To me, Xander tells Buffy to "kick Angelus' ass" not because he believes she needs to give it her all and focus on saving the world, but because he wants Angel dead and out of the way so that Buffy would be free to be with him; she would not be "distracted" by Angel and then maybe would look at Xander in a romantic way. His motivations are not "pure" and that is why, as I mentioned in my previous post, that if Xander had told Buffy in a nice and genuine way that she needed to let Angel go, look at the bigger picture, and fight her hardest, then I think he would have come off much better.
Yes, the way events unfolded may support that Xander was in the right, but I do not think that this absolves him for his action and the motivations behind them.
It does still bug me that a seemingly important moment in the season 2 finale like Xander's lie to Buffy, whether one thinks it is good or bad, is barely addressed, and even then it is in season 7 when it should have been sooner and much more in depth than what we got.
For me it represents a lack of character growth and development for Xander, which, for 2 shows that take most of it's characters on masterful journeys of character development and growth (one of my favorite aspects of Buffy and Angel) is a problem. It bugs me that he is kind of stuck in the same place until the very end of season 6 and season 7. I don't mean to say that Xander doesn't grow at all, this is just in regards to his prejudices against vampires and letting his emotions and selfishness get in the way.
Anyway, thank you so much Caleb for offering your opinion and discussing this with me!
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Post by ag25 on Jun 21, 2018 0:05:05 GMT
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Post by mmexis on Jun 21, 2018 1:52:19 GMT
While I appreciate that Xander is supposed to be us - the everyman, the everyday, the normal - I think I dislike him more with every rewatch. And then he goes and makes that great speech to Dawn in "Potential"....
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Post by ag25 on Jun 21, 2018 5:56:34 GMT
While I appreciate that Xander is supposed to be us - the everyman, the everyday, the normal - I think I dislike him more with every rewatch. And then he goes and makes that great speech to Dawn in "Potential".... I know! I get so aggravated with him most of the time and then he goes and does something like that and I'm like...ok, I don't hate Xander, lol.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 25, 2018 18:50:38 GMT
Sometimes, we forget Xander was the heart of the group. Despite how things ended with him and Anya, he had some genuinely sweet moments with her.
Particularly from "Into the Woods:" I've gotta say something...'Cause ... I don't think I've made it clear. I'm in love with you. Powerfully, painfully in love. The things you do ... the way you think ... the way you move ... I get excited every time I'm about to see you. You make me feel like I've never felt before in my life. Like a man. I just thought you might wanna know."
When the writers were really on their game with him, Xander could be the sweetest of the Scoobies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 18:58:33 GMT
Sometimes, we forget Xander was the heart of the group. That may be true but that does not change the fact that he could be incredible annoying a lot of times.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 19:00:20 GMT
While I appreciate that Xander is supposed to be us - the everyman, the everyday, the normal - I think I dislike him more with every rewatch. And then he goes and makes that great speech to Dawn in "Potential".... Its the same with me i liked Xander the first time i watched Buffy when it originally aired . But for every re watch i have done on DVD (3 times) i have liked him less and less. But of course he has his moments.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 25, 2018 19:14:33 GMT
I'm actually the opposite. The more I rewatch Buffy, the less annoyed I am with Xander. I see a lot more from his perspective. Not saying he's always right (he's still a teenager and very, very immature in many cases), but it's similar to how I can now understand where Wesley was coming from in "Choices." Despite their attitude, they're not wrong.
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Post by ag25 on Jul 18, 2018 15:29:08 GMT
Sometimes, we forget Xander was the heart of the group. Despite how things ended with him and Anya, he had some genuinely sweet moments with her. Particularly from "Into the Woods:" I've gotta say something...'Cause ... I don't think I've made it clear. I'm in love with you. Powerfully, painfully in love. The things you do ... the way you think ... the way you move ... I get excited every time I'm about to see you. You make me feel like I've never felt before in my life. Like a man. I just thought you might wanna know." When the writers were really on their game with him, Xander could be the sweetest of the Scoobies.
Yes, I know that is what we are meant to think, and Xander does act on his emotions probably more so than the other Scoobies for better or worse, so I get what the writers are going for, and I agree to an extent.
Now, I know I am biased and I fully admit that, but, for me, I just don't fully agree that Xander is the heart of the group. To me that suggests someone who is the glue that holds the group together, and I think Buffy and Willow function more in that role.
But you are right; his Into the Woods speech to Anya was very sweet and moving! (But I am not so crazy about his speech to Buffy in the same episode, lol).
Yes, I agree that when the writers were on their game with Xander, he really could be the sweetest.
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Post by ag25 on Jul 18, 2018 15:36:06 GMT
I'm actually the opposite. The more I rewatch Buffy, the less annoyed I am with Xander. I see a lot more from his perspective. Not saying he's always right (he's still a teenager and very, very immature in many cases), but it's similar to how I can now understand where Wesley was coming from in "Choices." Despite their attitude, they're not wrong.
I recently watched Choices and it is a very underrated episode. It is so good with all of the moving pieces and the characters coming together, and yet almost accomplishing nothing. And, to your point about Wesley, he was great in this episode! Not quite the buffoon he was earlier, but very much a level head and he is right for the most part in what he tells the group. I noticed that he was even more lenient with Buffy and the gang and considered their pov, but still tried to make them be reasonable and cautious. This is where we start to see his true character, so I think it is a great episode for him!
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