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Post by ant-mac on Jun 27, 2019 22:26:03 GMT
Oh, it's not what I wish, it's what it's been described as by the BBC itself from time to time over the decades. As for its target audience, I once heard that described as "kids of all ages, from nine to ninety". Doctor Who has a long tradition of adding in "something for the dads", as they call it. Such as Peri and her outfits Or who could forget my favourite companion, Leela (No, not my favourite because she's a pretty girl in leather. My favourite because she's extremely primitive and completely uneducated... but also very smart, an excellent judge of character who frequently spots bad guys before the Doctor does, extremely tough and deadly, to the extent that the Doctor has to keep stopping her from just murdering the bad guy outright, and all around very, very capable.) It's absolutely reasonable to not like it when the show changes. And if people want to walk away from it because of the changes, that's fair. But the thing about Who is that is has always changed, and people have always complained. Every new Doctor that came along was the Death of Doctor Who in the minds of some fans. The show goes on regardless. Dislike the changes if you want to, or feel you must. But the changes aren't going to stop. If things get bad for the show, the only thing that will happen is that it will change again... and again... and again. Coincidentally, Leela has always been my favourite companion as well. However, because of how brave and loyal she was to the Doctor. I always thought they made a good team. The Doctor would solve the problem, while Leela provided the back up and protected him. Of course, once I became a teenager, I did also begin to notice other qualities about the Sevateem warrior... Of course DOCTOR WHO has always been about change. However, the important thing is the TV show still always managed, more or less, to retain the same essential feel and spirit. Personally, I'm not so sure that's true anymore. As you indicated, some changes have certainly been more successful than others. By the way, I think you were incorrect in your reply to poelzig. In the UK, the highest rating serial in series 11 received 10.96 million viewers, after which there was a steady decline to the lowest rating serial, which received 6.42 million viewers. I'm certainly no expert in the matter, but that sounds like quite a plummet in ratings to me.
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Post by Catman on Jun 28, 2019 0:13:19 GMT
Catman watches the show just to see the TARDIS.
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Post by kleinreturns on Jun 28, 2019 0:15:42 GMT
As regards the state of the franchise, well, I kinda miss the days when it was a virtual cottage industry. A quiet stream of novelisations. A completely unfaithful and eccentric comic strip - singular - running in some obscure comic or other. No spin offs except one about a robot dog, with a terrible theme tune.Barely any merchandise anyway - which was easy on the wallet/pocket money. No tone meetings with the writers or directors. No episodes made to sell toys, (Hello new Cybermats!) It just seems to have gotten a little too big for it's own good i.m.o. I also, truly, believe that, when the entirety of New Who is on a metaphorical shelf, alongside the original series, that it will be mainly Classic Who that is being pulled off the shelf and watched again and again, despite it's tiny budget. That will be the ultimate proof. The great leveller. I honestly suspect that a large proportion of "New Who" episodes will be nice to own, but will, in comparison, be rarely pulled down off the shelf as much as the classic ones. Just a gut feeling, but I honestly think the new series makers blow their own trumpet so much a lot of the time that their conceit spoils the very product that they are making. The original creators of the classic show were just jobbing whatevers, doing the best they could, in an air of quiet budgetary and time-crunched desperation. And desperation is, of course....... Now everything is done with much more freedom of time and a bigger budget. But I don't think it is necessarily better.
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Post by kleinreturns on Jun 28, 2019 0:29:16 GMT
Oh, it's not what I wish, it's what it's been described as by the BBC itself from time to time over the decades. As for its target audience, I once heard that described as "kids of all ages, from nine to ninety". Doctor Who has a long tradition of adding in "something for the dads", as they call it. Such as Peri and her outfits Or who could forget my favourite companion, Leela (No, not my favourite because she's a pretty girl in leather. My favourite because she's extremely primitive and completely uneducated... but also very smart, an excellent judge of character who frequently spots bad guys before the Doctor does, extremely tough and deadly, to the extent that the Doctor has to keep stopping her from just murdering the bad guy outright, and all around very, very capable.) It's absolutely reasonable to not like it when the show changes. And if people want to walk away from it because of the changes, that's fair. But the thing about Who is that is has always changed, and people have always complained. Every new Doctor that came along was the Death of Doctor Who in the minds of some fans. The show goes on regardless. Dislike the changes if you want to, or feel you must. But the changes aren't going to stop. If things get bad for the show, the only thing that will happen is that it will change again. I don't know about that: She certainly didn't recognize Dask as a Bad Guy in Robots of Death, or Lowe as a bad guy in part 2 The Invisible Enemy or Chang in Part 1 of Talons. And she misjudged Borusa in the Invasion of Time and Poul in Robots of Death. And even after knowing fully well how devious Caleb was she still got herself stabbed with a Janis thorn by him.
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Post by ant-mac on Jun 28, 2019 0:55:06 GMT
Catman watches the show just to see the TARDIS. I think the exterior improved vastly with New Who. But the interior was always so much better in Classic Who. However, this is only my personal opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 14:58:00 GMT
Catman watches the show just to see the TARDIS. I think the exterior improved vastly with New Who. But the interior was always so much better in Classic Who. However, this is only my personal opinion. One thing I don't much like about the recent season is the new TARDIS interior. Just rubs me the wrong way.
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Post by ant-mac on Jun 28, 2019 15:06:06 GMT
I think the exterior improved vastly with New Who. But the interior was always so much better in Classic Who. However, this is only my personal opinion. One thing I don't much like about the recent season is the new TARDIS interior. Just rubs me the wrong way. You're not alone with this opinion. I've heard similar sentiments from others.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 19:23:34 GMT
One thing I don't much like about the recent season is the new TARDIS interior. Just rubs me the wrong way. You're not alone with this opinion. I've heard similar sentiments from others. I think part of it is the big crystal things. Now I appreciate the idea of depicting being in the TARDIS console room as like being inside a machine, with functional parts around the room. However, those crystal pillar things don't work for me. For one, they clutter up the space around the console. That's where the characters should be interacting, and doing so with these pillar things between and behind you just makes it look overly busy. For another thing, crystals made of plastic with lights inside just never, ever look realistic. Those things look like that they are, which is giant lumps of plastic. Oh, and if I'm looking for things to complain about, Yasmin is a waste of screen time and should be dumped right quick. Still and all, I do think Jodie is a pretty damn good Doctor. I like how the show has approached that with a "Oh, I'm a girl now? Okay." attitude from her. And yet still mentioned now and again that people do treat her differently than they did the male Doctors. And as for the episodes... Hmm. I think overall it was a pretty good season. Some episodes were very good, some episodes were just okay. But I'd say that whilst there were no great episodes there were also no terrible ones, either. And the new year's episode came very close to great. A solid C+/B- average, IMO. I just can't buy into the OMG WHO IS DEAD!!1! LADY PARTS HAVE RUINED EVERYTHING!!!! narrative. It's just silly.
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Post by ant-mac on Jun 28, 2019 21:38:57 GMT
You're not alone with this opinion. I've heard similar sentiments from others. Still and all, I do think Jodie is a pretty damn good Doctor. I like how the show has approached that with a "Oh, I'm a girl now? Okay." attitude from her. And yet still mentioned now and again that people do treat her differently than they did the male Doctors. And as for the episodes... Hmm. I think overall it was a pretty good season. Some episodes were very good, some episodes were just okay. But I'd say that whilst there were no great episodes there were also no terrible ones, either. And the new year's episode came very close to great. A solid C+/B- average, IMO. I just can't buy into the OMG WHO IS DEAD!!1! LADY PARTS HAVE RUINED EVERYTHING!!!! narrative. It's just silly. 1. Each to their own. I know there are plenty who disagree with that assessment. And it majority of those opinions seem to be based solely upon her lack of acting skills and greatness in the role. 2. Each to their own. Again, I know there are plenty who disagree with that assessment. It seems the serials simply diverged away from traditional DOCTOR WHO fare a bit too much. 3. You don't need to buy anything. You simply need to accept there's a wide variety of opinions throughout DOCTOR WHO fandom and the general public. And many, if not most, are just as legitimate or as valid as yours or mine. Personally, I think DOCTOR WHO should've ended when the thirteenth incarnation died, at the end of the Doctor's "natural" lifespan. I think every story should have a beginning, a middle and - just as importantly - an ending. Closure is important. That's when I originally planned THE PARTING OF THE WAYS. However, Peter Capaldi just looked too damned promising to miss out on. It seemed to me that we were finally getting a Doctor in the mould of a Classic Who Doctor. Unfortunately, he turned out to be a great Doctor, but with a load of serials that were forgettable and not so great. Then there was Missy. What a slap in the face to the fans and to the history of the franchise. Rather than celebrating and expanding upon the universe of DOCTOR WHO, it appeared that the show runners decided to contract it. Why reduce the size and complexity of universe when it was just as easy to expand it? I've always loved the idea of a villainous Time Lady. And we already had one - the Rani. Why not re-use an already existing character or, if really necessary, create a new one? Why was it necessary to mess around with the character of the Master? Do the show runners think a major female character can't succeed unless she stands on the shoulders of a male one? I feel the same about the Doctor. If you want a female version of the Doctor, more than one potential candidate already exists - Susan, Romana and Jenny. Or a brand new character could easily be created. In fact, I think it would've been rather interesting if this potential female counterpart had been involved - or "re-involved" - in the Doctor's final serial or series of serials and after his final death had chosen to take up where he left off... The point is, the DOCTOR WHO universe - multiverse - is suppose to be diverse and full of variety, but with recent developments, it seems to be anything but that. Rather than expanding it seems to be contracting. Of course, this is simply one person's opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 22:41:18 GMT
Still and all, I do think Jodie is a pretty damn good Doctor. I like how the show has approached that with a "Oh, I'm a girl now? Okay." attitude from her. And yet still mentioned now and again that people do treat her differently than they did the male Doctors. And as for the episodes... Hmm. I think overall it was a pretty good season. Some episodes were very good, some episodes were just okay. But I'd say that whilst there were no great episodes there were also no terrible ones, either. And the new year's episode came very close to great. A solid C+/B- average, IMO. I just can't buy into the OMG WHO IS DEAD!!1! LADY PARTS HAVE RUINED EVERYTHING!!!! narrative. It's just silly. 1. Each to their own. I know there are plenty who disagree with that assessment. And it majority of those opinions seem to be based solely upon her lack of acting skills and greatness in the role. Of course there are those who disagree. And I know they say it's because she's bad in the role, but I don't buy it. If it were a one-off then sure. But if you keep an eye out for these things it begins to be too obvious when the bile is directed at woman after woman after woman, endlessly. I think it's very obvious that most (not all) of these people are lying when they say it's not about gender. It obviously is. I do. But I don't accept that it's as wide or as legitimate as you seem to think. There is a group of people out there who are dedicated to throwing as much bad publicity as they can on every single major female role. What exactly was face-slappy about it? Nothing in Who is 'necessary'. They did it because they thought it would be better. Given Donna and Amy, obviously they do not. Neither Susan, Romana nor Jenny were female versions of the Doctor. I don't even get the complaint here. All of this amounts to "it's bad because they could have done something different and they didn't". That's just a really strange thing to say. I don't see how "it could have been something other than it is" is even a complaint at all. It's true of literally every creative decision ever made in history. The original Doctor was a grumpy old man, how dare they change him into a younger 'Cosmic Hobo'. If they wanted a Cosmic Hobo, they should have created a proper Cosmic Hobo character and not ruined the Doctor! It's nonsensical, and most especially when applied to a character that is specifically meant to change into something else! This is another thing that makes me sure at least some of the backlash (probably most) is sexist. Nobody, not once, not ever, has been able to give me a reason not to have a female Doctor that actually makes a lick of sense. "Somebody else could be the woman" just doesn't cut it. I don't even understand what you mean. Because we got a female Doctor and female Master instead of dragging out the Rani or Romana again... that means the universe is smaller? What? Especially coming off the end of a season that was wholly new places and species (sans the Dalek in the special, and even that was a pretty new twist on them)... not revisiting the Cybermen, the Zygons, Gallifrey, etc, etc. Baffling to me.
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Post by Doctor Omega on Jul 2, 2019 18:45:34 GMT
Well, they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. One has to ask if Jodie has connected and taken off with the public? The Rotten Tomatoes audience score would seem to indicate not. link
Is it because she is a woman? Or because she is a poor actress who has not done any research into the history of the character (apparently never watching a frame of Classic Who "White male gaze" and all that) and thinks that pulling a few scronch faces is detailed character work? Only the previous series, Capaldi's score paints a different picture..... link
ROTTEN TOMATOES AUDIENCE SCORES SINCE 2005:
SERIES 1: 87% SERIES 2: 91% SERIES 3: - SERIES 4: 100% SERIES 5: 92% SERIES 6: - SERIES 7: 83% SERIES 8: 79% SERIES 9: 82% SERIES 10: 68% SERIES 11: 21%
And this audience score is not just the UK. It is the entire planet telling Jodie that she only warrants 21 % in comparison to Capaldi's 68%. SERIES 11 VIEWING FIGURES RATINGS CHART:.... and it was still stuck at 6 million with the scrapyard Dalek episode. The BBC has so far done such a good job of shrugging off (or rather discreetly not adressing) the Rotten Tomatoes reaction, and the sliding ratings (10m, 9m, 8m, 7m, 6m)....
So much so, that they have avoided giving her a second series this year, along with rumours of "bye bye" next year. A staggering success story indeed. Still, at least Jodie had the dignity and sense to wait for the public to see her in action so that they could eat their words as her brilliant performance spoke for itself rather than getting drawn into juvenile responses and mockery of the doubters..... Oh no, wait. She didn't....... Would a different actress (one with actual screen presence, gravitas and 2000 years of wisdom behind the eyes this time, all of which - in my own personal opinion - Jodie has precisely none of) fare any better? Easy way to find out. Cast another actress and see if it gets cancelled.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 20:39:05 GMT
Well, they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. One has to ask if Jodie has connected and taken off with the public? The Rotten Tomatoes audience score would seem to indicate not. The Rotten Tomatoes audience score isn’t a measure of how she has connected with the public, it’s a measure of how well she connected with the people who voted on Rotten Tomatoes. And the fictitious audience plummet is the regular decline in viewership the show has had in every season of nuWho. Rumours are just that, and worth very little.
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Post by Doctor Omega on Jul 2, 2019 21:05:04 GMT
Well, they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. One has to ask if Jodie has connected and taken off with the public? The Rotten Tomatoes audience score would seem to indicate not. The Rotten Tomatoes audience score isn’t a measure of how she has connected with the public, it’s a measure of how well she connected with the people who voted on Rotten Tomatoes. .... who just happen to be a worldwide cross-section of members of the public.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 2:24:36 GMT
The Rotten Tomatoes audience score isn’t a measure of how she has connected with the public, it’s a measure of how well she connected with the people who voted on Rotten Tomatoes. .... who just happen to be a worldwide cross-section of members of the public. No, they are not.
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Post by lordquesterjones on Jul 3, 2019 14:21:56 GMT
The problems are this:
It's too gay!
Every single episode there's some gay stuff in it.
They also tried to make it appealing to American audiences, when it's quintessential Britishness was what gave it it's original appeal.
They also tried to make it too clever.
I don't mean that in a condescending way; I mean they tried to give it too many series sub-plots.
Nothing wrong with that, but they then had to go one better with every other series.
As for the Doctors themselves? I liked Jodie Whittaker, and Peter Capaldi. And most of the others.
But I think the biggest problem was that they tried to make it 'for profit'.
You could see the special effects increasing as the revenue from oversea sales came in.
And it needs to be more macabre.
I know people will complain about that, somebody will always complain about something.
But the main reason I used to watch it when I was younger was because it scared me.
I had wonderful nightmares after watching it as a young child!
And it was because of that illicit feeling of watching something I shouldn't have watched that made me want to watch it even more.
I know those days are long gone, but it just feels too safe nowadays.
And lastly: there's way too much pathos in it!
Just make the episodes 1/2 hour long and create more tension.
DON'T give us 1/2 an hour of bullshit 'emotional turmoil'!
Just got on with the fucking story!
And it doesn't have to have the latest 'big name' in it.
Make it a characterisation based sci-fi program.
But please leave out all the gay shit.
We're not all going to be gay in 1,000 years time, ffs!
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Post by Doctor Omega on Jul 3, 2019 18:37:03 GMT
.... who just happen to be a worldwide cross-section of members of the public. No, they are not. We'll just have to agree to differ on that one, clearly.
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Post by Doctor Omega on Jul 3, 2019 18:40:25 GMT
Well, they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. One has to ask if Jodie has connected and taken off with the public? The Rotten Tomatoes audience score would seem to indicate not. And the fictitious audience plummet is the regular decline in viewership the show has had in every season of nuWho. Fictitious? Am I to take it that this is to be the defence from now on? When the facts tell against, cry fraud? .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 21:07:27 GMT
We'll just have to agree to differ on that one, clearly. Fine by me.
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Post by ant-mac on Jul 4, 2019 13:05:35 GMT
1. Each to their own. I know there are plenty who disagree with that assessment. And it majority of those opinions seem to be based solely upon her lack of acting skills and greatness in the role. Of course there are those who disagree. And I know they say it's because she's bad in the role, but I don't buy it. If it were a one-off then sure. But if you keep an eye out for these things it begins to be too obvious when the bile is directed at woman after woman after woman, endlessly. I think it's very obvious that most (not all) of these people are lying when they say it's not about gender. It obviously is. I do. But I don't accept that it's as wide or as legitimate as you seem to think. There is a group of people out there who are dedicated to throwing as much bad publicity as they can on every single major female role. What exactly was face-slappy about it? Nothing in Who is 'necessary'. They did it because they thought it would be better. Given Donna and Amy, obviously they do not. Neither Susan, Romana nor Jenny were female versions of the Doctor. I don't even get the complaint here. All of this amounts to "it's bad because they could have done something different and they didn't". That's just a really strange thing to say. I don't see how "it could have been something other than it is" is even a complaint at all. It's true of literally every creative decision ever made in history. The original Doctor was a grumpy old man, how dare they change him into a younger 'Cosmic Hobo'. If they wanted a Cosmic Hobo, they should have created a proper Cosmic Hobo character and not ruined the Doctor! It's nonsensical, and most especially when applied to a character that is specifically meant to change into something else! This is another thing that makes me sure at least some of the backlash (probably most) is sexist. Nobody, not once, not ever, has been able to give me a reason not to have a female Doctor that actually makes a lick of sense. "Somebody else could be the woman" just doesn't cut it. I don't even understand what you mean. Because we got a female Doctor and female Master instead of dragging out the Rani or Romana again... that means the universe is smaller? What? Especially coming off the end of a season that was wholly new places and species (sans the Dalek in the special, and even that was a pretty new twist on them)... not revisiting the Cybermen, the Zygons, Gallifrey, etc, etc. Baffling to me. 1. I expect there are some who don't like her because she is a female. In fact, I've read or heard comments that state that straight out. However, there are also others who dislike her for other reasons. After all, all of her male predecessors have received a mixture of praise and criticism for various reasons, so why should she be any different? 2. There might be a small group of people out there "who are dedicated to throwing as much bad publicity as they can on every single major female role", but that's just it - they're a small group of people. As I said, there's a wide variety of opinions throughout DOCTOR WHO fandom and the general public. And many, if not most, are just as legitimate or as valid as yours or mine. Personally, I go case by case. Some I like, some I dislike and some I feel completely indifferent about. 3. It's a slap in the face to those who created the original characters, those who worked to bring them to the small screen and to life and those who work on the original DW serials. I think they've been ignored and cast aside for an inferior alternative. 4. And while some think it was, others think it wasn't. And ultimately, very little is actually "necessary". 5. Or Susan or Barbara. But I wasn't referring to companions. Oh and were you referring to Donna of the Doctor / Donna hybrid? The one with the male component? 6. Susan and Jenny may not be very close versions of the Doctor, but Romana certainly is. She out-Doctored the Doctor more than once. She created her own sonic screwdriver and when she left, she had blue-prints for the design of her very own TARDIS, so she could travel through space and time, fighting injustice and freeing the oppressed. Now "Who" does that remind me of? Besides, whoever the female time traveller happened to be - new or old - she would simply have to fill the narrative role of her male counterpart. She wouldn't actually have to be an exact clone or copy of him. And I was certainly never serious about Susan or Jenny, but if I was, I'd just like to point out that it's only take a bit of tweaking - a regeneration perhaps - to turn them into exactly what the Doctor ordered... If you'll pardon the pun. 7. You didn't get the complaint? Never mind. 8. And you didn't understand what I meant? Never mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 13:51:08 GMT
1. I expect there are some who don't like her because she is a female. In fact, I've read or heard comments that state that straight out. However, there are also others who dislike her for other reasons. Naturally. My contention is not that everybody who dislikes her in the role does so because vagina. My contention is that most people who dislike her in the role do so for that reason, whether they admit it or not. It's reflective of the age we live in, actually. Back in the day one could be openly racist or sexist. Over time that's come to be seen as unacceptable, and there is a social (and sometimes legal) price to pay for displaying such attitudes. So what we get now is very much cloaked bigotry. So you get a bigot who will claim "Oh, I'm just complaining about bad actors and bad stories"... but the bad actors and bad stories complained about are almost exclusively women, or works featuring women. Such people know they can't admit the motivations behind their hate for Jodie Whittaker or Daisy Ridley or whoever. So for instance, season 11 is a "ratings disaster" according to some. It began with 10.96 million viewers and dropped to 6.65 by the end of the season. But season 10 went from 6.68 million to 5.3. Season 9's ratings began at 6.68 and dropped to 5.3. Meaning that by the end of this cataclysmic ratings drop, Season 11's ratings were comparable to the opening high points of seasons 9 and 10. So where are all the posts and youtube videos by these same people crying about what a ratings disaster Capaldi was? Where are all the posts telling us what a shit Doctor Capaldi is, how he's failed to connect with the public? Can you point them out to me? No you cannot, because they never happened. Because it's not actually about the ratings. The ratings are an excuse that some people have seized on to criticise Jodie Whittaker. Are some people actually concerned about the ratings? Perhaps. But unless you can show me that person also making similar - and worse! - complaints about season 9 and 10, then that person's complaints about the ratings are a lie. No, this is absolutely nonsensical. Turning the Doctor or the Master into women isn't a slap to the people who created the characters, or to anybody else. The Doctor changes. Time Lords change. This has been baked into the show since the first regeneration. You asked if the showrunners think female characters can't stand on their own. Clearly they do not think that, companion or not. Romana is not the Doctor. She's not a version of the Doctor. She's her own person. Again, there is no 'have to'. They do what they think will work best. I understood what you said. I was saying that the complaint as stated is nonsensical.
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