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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 29, 2017 16:30:20 GMT
Creepy little alien demon. Ewww. What a unique twist for the show. It's not technically an alien from another planet, but it does seem to come from another world. Giles' explanation that demons enter our world from various places makes total sense to me. Why should every other dimension be automatically connected to Earth?
It was nice to see Riley falling back into the agent role working with the Initiative. It really was the best fit for him. Like Gunn, it seems he struggled with falling in line, not being able to lead. Certainly, a big point of contention between him and Buffy. One of the more unspoken issues that is driving him away from the scoobies. Yes, they're a team, but they don't function as one. Riley needs people who can take orders and follow instructions. It's a shame he'll be gone by the next episode. I really like the character and felt he brought something new and unique to the Scoobies.
The plot continues to unfold with a wonderful surprise: Ben knows Glory (Hmmm, I wonder if there's some kind of a connection there). And I forgot to mention this in shadow, but we have now been introduced to Glory's sycophantic worshipers, my own personal favorite minions of either show. They really know how to let the purple prose fly in their exaltation of their most radiant and luminescent deity. Harmony could learn a thing or two from them on how to kiss butt.
And now for my favorite moment in the episode (and actually of the entire series). I've discussed this before but there is an incredible moment for Buffy. Joyce is upstairs having what Buffy believes are delusions cause by her brain tumor (it's actually the Queller terrorizing Joyce and Dawn). And Buffy has an emotional breakdown while washing dishes. It's getting to be too much for her. Monsters and demons she can handle. But illness is completely new to her. She literally can't do anything but try to keep her mom comfortable. The situation is too hard for the 19(!) year old. She is lost.
Yet when Dawn cries out for her, "BUFFY!" she spins around and is immediately in slayer mode ready to defend her family at any cost. It's brief, powerful, and tells us all we need to know about Buffy and how much her family means to her. I get chills just thinking about it. The power and emotion of that moment is matched by the tenderness of the ending. Joyce now knows Dawn is not her daughter. Yet, just like Buffy, she feels love and attachment. She knows Dawn is precious to the world and must be protected. The entire season is filled with beautiful moments like this.
Now, onto "The Trial." How can I even begin to describe what at the same time is one of Angel's greatest successes yet still one of this greatest failures? Let's start with Angel continuing to alienate himself from Cordy and Wes. He lies to them about not seeking out Darla. She's still a heavy burden on his mind. He knows what she wants and how far she'll go to get it. He wants to save her because if she can be saved, then there's hope for his soul. Darla's desperation to save herself through being sired really pays off what she told Lindsey about life being too short: "400 years and it's still too short." She doesn't want to die. Not again. But at the same time, Angel doesn't want to have to kill her again. A great callback to "Angel" on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I loved that they finally addressed it between the two of them. And I love even more Darla's response: "Don't worry. I wouldn't let it happen twice."
But like the hero Angel's working hard to be, he won't give up. The trials he goes through for someone who once abandoned him in a burning barn (what great foreshadowing for Holtz) prove he's willing to lay down his life if it'll save another's. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. He fails. Not through his fault or Darla's or anyone else's. But simply because it's not possible to give someone a second chance if they're already living it. In again, another wonderful similarity to Buffy, Angel has his own emotional breakdown. Just like Buffy, he can't do anything to save someone's life. But unlike her, his breakdown is violent. He lashes out at demons and anything he can attack before collapsing. It's all to exhausting for him.
However, despite all this, this is how he finally gets through to Darla. Through his own determination and sacrifice, he shows her death is not a punishment. It's a part of life. A part she must now go through. This is his greatest success. He has enabled an enemy to accept her death, not as a horrible thing, but as her last chance to live as a human. Angel's promise to be with her every moment perfectly reflects anyone who's ever had to care for a loved one who is dying. It seems in failing to save her life, Angel saved her soul.
And then we are hit with one of the most crushing twists in the history of either show. The shocking return of Drusilla, who we hadn't seen in the present since Becoming Part 2. The show played us so well. We kept seeing Dru in flashbacks, which was exactly like in season 1; we saw Darla in flashbacks before she made a true return. You'd think we'd've seen it coming. And kudos to the show for keeping Juliet Landau's name out of the opening credits. How wonderfully evil.
The shock and despair on Angel's face as he knows Darla is now lost captures what the audience feels. After everything that's happened these past several episodes, this is what it comes to.
What I really enjoy about Angel is how its story telling differs from Buffy's. Buffy's episodes tend to build towards the season finale. Angel's episodes, on the other hand, tend to build toward mini-arcs inside the season. A structure that will be most prominent in season 3 with its trilogy of trilogies. "The Trial" marks the end of Angel's conflict with human Darla, and the beginning of Angel's dark soul arc, where he will abandon everything he's worked for in the past year and half, friends, family, his mission, all to wage a personal war on Wolfram and Hart.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Oct 18, 2017 23:53:09 GMT
Creepy little alien demon. Ewww. What a unique twist for the show. It's not technically an alien from another planet, but it does seem to come from another world. Giles' explanation that demons enter our world from various places makes total sense to me. Why should every other dimension be automatically connected to Earth? It was nice to see Riley falling back into the agent role working with the Initiative. It really was the best fit for him. Like Gunn, it seems he struggled with falling in line, not being able to lead. Certainly, a big point of contention between him and Buffy. One of the more unspoken issues that is driving him away from the scoobies. Yes, they're a team, but they don't function as one. Riley needs people who can take orders and follow instructions. It's a shame he'll be gone by the next episode. I really like the character and felt he brought something new and unique to the Scoobies. The plot continues to unfold with a wonderful surprise: Ben knows Glory (Hmmm, I wonder if there's some kind of a connection there). And I forgot to mention this in shadow, but we have now been introduced to Glory's sycophantic worshipers, my own personal favorite minions of either show. They really know how to let the purple prose fly in their exaltation of their most radiant and luminescent deity. Harmony could learn a thing or two from them on how to kiss butt. And now for my favorite moment in the episode (and actually of the entire series). I've discussed this before but there is an incredible moment for Buffy. Joyce is upstairs having what Buffy believes are delusions cause by her brain tumor (it's actually the Queller terrorizing Joyce and Dawn). And Buffy has an emotional breakdown while washing dishes. It's getting to be too much for her. Monsters and demons she can handle. But illness is completely new to her. She literally can't do anything but try to keep her mom comfortable. The situation is too hard for the 19(!) year old. She is lost. Yet when Dawn cries out for her, "BUFFY!" she spins around and is immediately in slayer mode ready to defend her family at any cost. It's brief, powerful, and tells us all we need to know about Buffy and how much her family means to her. I get chills just thinking about it. The power and emotion of that moment is matched by the tenderness of the ending. Joyce now knows Dawn is not her daughter. Yet, just like Buffy, she feels love and attachment. She knows Dawn is precious to the world and must be protected. The entire season is filled with beautiful moments like this. Now, onto "The Trial." How can I even begin to describe what at the same time is one of Angel's greatest successes yet still one of this greatest failures? Let's start with Angel continuing to alienate himself from Cordy and Wes. He lies to them about not seeking out Darla. She's still a heavy burden on his mind. He knows what she wants and how far she'll go to get it. He wants to save her because if she can be saved, then there's hope for his soul. Darla's desperation to save herself through being sired really pays off what she told Lindsey about life being too short: "400 years and it's still too short." She doesn't want to die. Not again. But at the same time, Angel doesn't want to have to kill her again. A great callback to "Angel" on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I loved that they finally addressed it between the two of them. And I love even more Darla's response: "Don't worry. I wouldn't let it happen twice." But like the hero Angel's working hard to be, he won't give up. The trials he goes through for someone who once abandoned him in a burning barn (what great foreshadowing for Holtz) prove he's willing to lay down his life if it'll save another's. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. He fails. Not through his fault or Darla's or anyone else's. But simply because it's not possible to give someone a second chance if they're already living it. In again, another wonderful similarity to Buffy, Angel has his own emotional breakdown. Just like Buffy, he can't do anything to save someone's life. But unlike her, his breakdown is violent. He lashes out at demons and anything he can attack before collapsing. It's all to exhausting for him. However, despite all this, this is how he finally gets through to Darla. Through his own determination and sacrifice, he shows her death is not a punishment. It's a part of life. A part she must now go through. This is his greatest success. He has enabled an enemy to accept her death, not as a horrible thing, but as her last chance to live as a human. Angel's promise to be with her every moment perfectly reflects anyone who's ever had to care for a loved one who is dying. It seems in failing to save her life, Angel saved her soul. And then we are hit with one of the most crushing twists in the history of either show. The shocking return of Drusilla, who we hadn't seen in the present since Becoming Part 2. The show played us so well. We kept seeing Dru in flashbacks, which was exactly like in season 1; we saw Darla in flashbacks before she made a true return. You'd think we'd've seen it coming. And kudos to the show for keeping Juliet Landau's name out of the opening credits. How wonderfully evil. The shock and despair on Angel's face as he knows Darla is now lost captures what the audience feels. After everything that's happened these past several episodes, this is what it comes to. What I really enjoy about Angel is how its story telling differs from Buffy's. Buffy's episodes tend to build towards the season finale. Angel's episodes, on the other hand, tend to build toward mini-arcs inside the season. A structure that will be most prominent in season 3 with its trilogy of trilogies. "The Trial" marks the end of Angel's conflict with human Darla, and the beginning of Angel's dark soul arc, where he will abandon everything he's worked for in the past year and half, friends, family, his mission, all to wage a personal war on Wolfram and Hart. Sorry it took me so long, Caleb!
I liked the Queller demon and the fake out with Joyce.
Sorry, can't agree about Riley, lol. But I don't hate him.
Buffy's breakdown is also one of my favorite moments, too. Sarah is perfect here. I agree with everything you said.
You have said everything so beautifully about both episodes, Caleb, that I am not sure what else I can add, lol.
I will say that The Trial holds a special place in my heart because I remember it made such an emotional impact on me when I first saw it, and still does every time I watch it. That's why it just barely edges out Darla as my favorite Angel S2 episode; not that I didn't react emotionally to Darla, I most certainly did, it was just slightly bigger for The Trial. I love that Darla is finally able to experience for real what it is like for someone to care for her; that was something she was always searching for. They both accept their deaths, which is nice symmetry, and feeds directly into what you said about his acceptance leads to hers.
I like that it is a "quest" episode which was different; loved the butler guy.
I feel that even though the PTBs don't want Angel on the Darla path, this episode kind of justifies it, because it shows that all he wants is to give her a chance and how much he cares. (Of course this is thrown out the window when Dru revamps Darla and the events of Reunion). One could argue that if you were to replace Darla with Faith, Cordelia, Buffy, Kate, Wesley...pretty much anyone, Angel would still do the same thing, and that must be affirming (is that the right word?) for the PTBs to know their champion is wiling to go to those lengths for others. The episode is very pure in a way.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 23, 2017 22:40:33 GMT
The Trial had quite a lasting impact on me as well. It was crushing. I don't think I'd felt as defeated as a fan since the death of Doyle. Doyle's death showed me Angel would not be able to save everyone's life. Darla's siring showed me Angel may not be able to save everyone's soul.
That's a very interesting interpretation. And I have to agree. The Powers definitely did not want Angel obsessing over Darla. It was clearly messing with his mission on more than one occasion.
But more than anything, you're right. Angel proves he is worthy of being the Powers' champion. Even on missions they haven't slotted for him, he is willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good. There is a great heroic purity in that. Angel's a good guy. Too bad the ending of this episode is the beginning of one of his darkest times.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Oct 26, 2017 0:03:51 GMT
One thing I always thought David Boreanaz was very good at (besides conveying ‘thinking’ really well) was ‘anger’. Not just the obvious sort of anger (as he displayed at the end of Season 3’s 'Forgiving’ – though it must be acknowledged just how scary his anger was in that scene. I thought his final “Dead!”, which could be heard after the screen cut to black, was especially effective), but also the more ‘restrained’ sort of anger – the sort where you could see in boiling up inside.
Though when he had his anger outbursts, it really was quite frightening (I suppose part of the reason I found it to be so was because usually he was pretty ‘calm’...most of the time). The reason I bring this up is I thought he was so excellent at showing anger in ‘The Trial’ once it was revealed Darla couldn’t be saved. After everything he’d gone through to save her, no wonder he lost it and started trashing the joint/punching walls, etc.
I kind of wish we could’ve actually *seen* him trashing everything in the extremely short (possibly the shortest ever?) teaser for Season 4’s ‘Habeas Corpses’ (after he’d just seen Cordelia and his son in bed together).
My ‘favourite’ display of anger from Angel, though, would have to be in in the Season 4 final, ‘Home’, after he’s slammed Lilah against the wall and he’s yelling in her face. There’s a part where he moves away from her, but then comes rushing back and gets in real close, and I found that extremely effective. His unrestrained rage was very intimidating, I thought. I guess anything concerning Connor would always bring that out of him.
Anyway, I just liked the fact that even Angel himself could be ‘scary’ at times (and not just when he was Angelus). I wouldn’t want to ever get on DB’s ‘bad’ side, that’s for sure.
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Post by Raimo47 on Oct 26, 2017 14:34:54 GMT
One thing I always thought David Boreanaz was very good at (besides conveying ‘thinking’ really well) was ‘anger’. Not just the obvious sort of anger (as he displayed at the end of Season 3’s 'Forgiving’ – though it must be acknowledged just how scary his anger was in that scene. I thought his final “ Dead!”, which could be heard after the screen cut to black, was especially effective), but also the more ‘restrained’ sort of anger – the sort where you could see in boiling up inside. Though when he had his anger outbursts, it really was quite frightening (I suppose part of the reason I found it to be so was because usually he was pretty ‘calm’...most of the time). The reason I bring this up is I thought he was so excellent at showing anger in ‘The Trial’ once it was revealed Darla couldn’t be saved. After everything he’d gone through to save her, no wonder he lost it and started trashing the joint/punching walls, etc. I kind of wish we could’ve actually *seen* him trashing everything in the extremely short (possibly the shortest ever?) teaser for Season 4’s ‘Habeas Corpses’ (after he’d just seen Cordelia and his son in bed together). My ‘favourite’ display of anger from Angel, though, would have to be in in the Season 4 final, ‘Home’, after he’s slammed Lilah against the wall and he’s yelling in her face. There’s a part where he moves away from her, but then comes rushing back and gets in real close, and I found that extremely effective. His unrestrained rage was very intimidating, I thought. I guess anything concerning Connor would always bring that out of him. Anyway, I just liked the fact that even Angel himself could be ‘scary’ at times (and not just when he was Angelus). I wouldn’t want to ever get on DB’s ‘bad’ side, that’s for sure. All those scenes are great. I also like the scene in Blind Date after the trial.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Oct 26, 2017 21:18:56 GMT
I also liked when he would quietly threaten someone (usually Lilah). Two instances of this which I can recall:
In Season 3's 'Sleep Tight'...
Lilah: "Isn't that nice and creepy? How'd you find me?"
Angel: "Your assistant."
Lilah: "I'll have his arms broken."
Angel: "Already taken care of."
Lilah: "And am I next?"
Angel: "You know, Lilah, there are so many things I could do to you. With transfusions I could keep you alive indefinitely. I do have some expertise in this area. My own son. How could you?"
And in Season 4's 'Ground State'...
Angel: "Just this once, I'll ignore the fact that you were within 50 yards of my son. Just this once."
There were probably a lot more that I'm just not remembering at the moment.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 26, 2017 22:28:01 GMT
Yes. And it could be absolutely terrifying. Because, honestly, that's not something we ever really saw on Buffy. He mostly brooded, and even when he was evil, he didn't really seethe hatred and anger.
And you're right. What makes it so shocking is what a contrast it is to his more calm, broody personality.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 1, 2017 23:21:19 GMT
The Trial had quite a lasting impact on me as well. It was crushing. I don't think I'd felt as defeated as a fan since the death of Doyle. Doyle's death showed me Angel would not be able to save everyone's life. Darla's siring showed me Angel may not be able to save everyone's soul. That's a very interesting interpretation. And I have to agree. The Powers definitely did not want Angel obsessing over Darla. It was clearly messing with his mission on more than one occasion. But more than anything, you're right. Angel proves he is worthy of being the Powers' champion. Even on missions they haven't slotted for him, he is willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good. There is a great heroic purity in that. Angel's a good guy. Too bad the ending of this episode is the beginning of one of his darkest times.
I know! Ironic. I am always sad at the end of The Trial, but then I loved the dark Angel storyline too. It was unexpected and different. Very similar to the Angelus arc in Buffy season 2, yet completely different. And at the end of it, Angel ended up having some wonderful character development.
And these events lead to the Holtz/pregnant Darla/Conner storylines in season3 (and 4) and I loved that! Lullaby is absolutely beautiful to me. I love that kind of layered storytelling.
I agree with everything you said, Caleb.
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Post by ag25 on Nov 1, 2017 23:43:22 GMT
One thing I always thought David Boreanaz was very good at (besides conveying ‘thinking’ really well) was ‘anger’. Not just the obvious sort of anger (as he displayed at the end of Season 3’s 'Forgiving’ – though it must be acknowledged just how scary his anger was in that scene. I thought his final “ Dead!”, which could be heard after the screen cut to black, was especially effective), but also the more ‘restrained’ sort of anger – the sort where you could see in boiling up inside. Though when he had his anger outbursts, it really was quite frightening (I suppose part of the reason I found it to be so was because usually he was pretty ‘calm’...most of the time). The reason I bring this up is I thought he was so excellent at showing anger in ‘The Trial’ once it was revealed Darla couldn’t be saved. After everything he’d gone through to save her, no wonder he lost it and started trashing the joint/punching walls, etc. I kind of wish we could’ve actually *seen* him trashing everything in the extremely short (possibly the shortest ever?) teaser for Season 4’s ‘Habeas Corpses’ (after he’d just seen Cordelia and his son in bed together). My ‘favourite’ display of anger from Angel, though, would have to be in in the Season 4 final, ‘Home’, after he’s slammed Lilah against the wall and he’s yelling in her face. There’s a part where he moves away from her, but then comes rushing back and gets in real close, and I found that extremely effective. His unrestrained rage was very intimidating, I thought. I guess anything concerning Connor would always bring that out of him. Anyway, I just liked the fact that even Angel himself could be ‘scary’ at times (and not just when he was Angelus). I wouldn’t want to ever get on DB’s ‘bad’ side, that’s for sure.
You are totally right, Chalice.
I agree with all of your examples here and in your other post. I liked both Angel's anger outbursts and his quiet anger/threats.
I loved his display in The Trial, the music added even more to it too. The fact that he won, but ultimately lost was great.
Yes, I, too, wish we could have seen what he was doing at the beginning of Habeas Corpses, yet I always try to repress the end (evil Cordy and Conner) of Apocalypse, Nowish from my mind, lol.
Yes, I always loved when Angel rattles Lilah! She needed to be taken down a few pegs because I never think she quite grasped how dangerous Angel could really be. I wish we had seen more of her and Angelus. Anyway, yes, him threatening her in Home was fantastic! You felt his anger at her and W&H for using Conner as an opportunity, yet also his desperation and love to help him. She insulted Conner I think and he gets back in her face and says she doesn't understand him, or something like that. I loved that too. The way he was moving, like a caged animal was effective too.
Another scene similar to this is in That Vision Thing, when Lilah sends the fake visions to Cordelia that manifest on her and hurt her, and twice Angel threatens Lilah. Once in her office, and then later when he kills the guy sending the visions to Cordy and tells her: "If you ever come at me through Cordelia again, I'll kill you." was so chilling; even more so when you at first think he was going to throw the rebar at her.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 1, 2017 23:44:49 GMT
One thing I always thought David Boreanaz was very good at (besides conveying ‘thinking’ really well) was ‘anger’. Not just the obvious sort of anger (as he displayed at the end of Season 3’s 'Forgiving’ – though it must be acknowledged just how scary his anger was in that scene. I thought his final “ Dead!”, which could be heard after the screen cut to black, was especially effective), but also the more ‘restrained’ sort of anger – the sort where you could see in boiling up inside. Though when he had his anger outbursts, it really was quite frightening (I suppose part of the reason I found it to be so was because usually he was pretty ‘calm’...most of the time). The reason I bring this up is I thought he was so excellent at showing anger in ‘The Trial’ once it was revealed Darla couldn’t be saved. After everything he’d gone through to save her, no wonder he lost it and started trashing the joint/punching walls, etc. I kind of wish we could’ve actually *seen* him trashing everything in the extremely short (possibly the shortest ever?) teaser for Season 4’s ‘Habeas Corpses’ (after he’d just seen Cordelia and his son in bed together). My ‘favourite’ display of anger from Angel, though, would have to be in in the Season 4 final, ‘Home’, after he’s slammed Lilah against the wall and he’s yelling in her face. There’s a part where he moves away from her, but then comes rushing back and gets in real close, and I found that extremely effective. His unrestrained rage was very intimidating, I thought. I guess anything concerning Connor would always bring that out of him. Anyway, I just liked the fact that even Angel himself could be ‘scary’ at times (and not just when he was Angelus). I wouldn’t want to ever get on DB’s ‘bad’ side, that’s for sure. All those scenes are great. I also like the scene in Blind Date after the trial. I agree. Great quote. And Blind Date is one of my favorite episodes of season 1.
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Post by ag25 on Nov 1, 2017 23:46:18 GMT
Yes. And it could be absolutely terrifying. Because, honestly, that's not something we ever really saw on Buffy. He mostly brooded, and even when he was evil, he didn't really seethe hatred and anger. And you're right. What makes it so shocking is what a contrast it is to his more calm, broody personality.
Yep. Agree!
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Nov 1, 2017 23:58:21 GMT
Yes, I always loved when Angel rattles Lilah! She needed to be taken down a few pegs because I never think she quite grasped how dangerous Angel could really be. I wish we had seen more of her and Angelus. Anyway, yes, him threatening her in Home was fantastic! You felt his anger at her and W&H for using Conner as an opportunity, yet also his desperation and love to help him. She insulted Conner I think and he gets back in her face and says she doesn't understand him, or something like that. I loved that too. The way he was moving, like a caged animal was effective too.
Another scene similar to this is in That Vision Thing, when Lilah sends the fake visions to Cordelia that manifest on her and hurt her, and twice Angel threatens Lilah. Once in her office, and then later when he kills the guy sending the visions to Cordy and tells her: "If you ever come at me through Cordelia again, I'll kill you." was so chilling; even more so when you at first think he was going to throw the rebar at her.
While I did love the character of Lilah and all her evilness (as well as the few instances we saw some actual 'humanity' in her), I wasn't at all opposed to seeing her be reminded of just how dangerous Angel (not just Angelus) could be.
I agree with your examples, and also there was the instance in Season 3's 'Forgiving' when the girl in the 'White Room' told Angel to kill Lilah and he was ready to do it in a heartbeat ...but then she stopped him. He showed he was fully prepared to do whatever was necessary and kill whoever needed killing to get his son back. I imagine Lilah probably needed an underwear change after that.
Another instance where Angel gave Lilah a fright was in Season 2's 'Reprise', where she thought he was going to take her hand (much like he'd done with Lindsey).
I really did think the Angel/Lilah dynamic was one of the best/most interesting ones in the show. David Boreanaz and Stephanie Romanov had a 'different' sort of chemistry to the usual sort we got in the show. They were enemies, but on some level I think they 'got' each other and even had some things in common (in an odd sort of way). It really was a dynamic that wasn't matched by any other in the show, I think.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 11, 2017 18:29:53 GMT
I think Angel's outburst in "Forgiving" is my favorite, because it starts so subtle; and he's so reassuring about the facts of everything at first.
The fact that he wants Wesley to understand that this isn't Angelus, that he's invoked the anger of Angel when he's more balanced; cloaked in the faint of Angel telling him he understands why he did it.
"The Trial" is a great a episode, and I can't help but wonder if, since he wins what is supposed to be this miracle that can't be granted, could it be that it comes back in another way? There's this trifecta of occurrences that later happen, in part because Angel couldn't save Darla directly through that trial, that had a more profound and resounding effect on Angel's life and Darla's and others: Angel sleeps with Darla in an attempt to lose his soul, only for him to... find it again, really; which leads him to saving Kate - the fact that he was able to enter Kate's apartment in the first place may itself be an expression of that miracle second chance, for Kate instead of Darla, but he can only get there on account of the revelation he had to renew his resolve - and then Connor is conceived in this midst of all of this, which does ultimate provide the sense of humanity and a second chance after a fashion for Darla, who willingly sacrifices herself to give him life. Whether or not there was a direct force, or... you know, someone snapped their fingers and said "wish granted" in reward for Angel's winning his trial, and all these other things happened as consolation for not being able to grant the more immediate, original request the trial was intended for; the outcome has at least same level of significant impact as simply curing Darla of the disease that would kill her, if not arguably more so. If she had simply been cured, Angel probably wouldn't have found himself in that very dark place that lead to him sleeping with Darla, there'd be no Connor, and what would even become of Kate?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 11, 2017 18:53:18 GMT
Kind of forgot about the discussion of the Buffy episode. Now, it's been a while since I've seen the episode (I'm disappointed that no one has been running reruns in a while...), but I thought the Queller didn't cause delusions, but rather simply fed on those suffering them. The main thing setting Joyce apart from the others of course, being that the other patients in the hospital with cognitive issues were predominantly the result of Glory; whereas she really did have legitimate cause, because of the tumor. The Queller was called (I think by Ben, right? Or one of Glory's minions?) to "clean-up" the unusually high number of people with mental problems popping up at random in Sunnydale, so as not to draw attention to Glory; only it followed Joyce home, because it... "smelled" the mental instability being caused by the tumor, which lured it in. Admittedly some of what Joyce said in describing what she saw of the demon sounded to Buffy like it was just part of the word salad already coming out of her, even back at the hospital, before the Queller was anywhere near her; so Buffy tried to tune it out, because it was getting to be too much for her. And that was kind of the tragedy of Buffy not going to help her right away, in that the moment she should have taken note and sprung into action, she ignores it, because she thinks it's all in her mother's mind.
As for Riley... I don't know. He's just so vanilla. It sort of seemed to me like he fit in with the Initiative, but only as a departure from the otherwise bland character, who lacked any real defining personality traits. You've got the awe-shucks hayseed Riley, and commando-Riley with kung-fu action grip; and they never seemed to do a good job blending the two facets of the character. Any time they tried to apply his Initiative training outside the Initiative, they always seemed to make it be him clumsily using military terms or phrases the Scoobies have obviously no idea about; like he was some sort of alien in a world of civilians and didn't have a firm grasp on the language.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Nov 13, 2017 14:44:30 GMT
You are absolutely correct about everything regarding the Queller.
I also agree about Riley. Despite being a fan of his, I can see the writers didn't really have too much for him to do. Outside of being Initiative guy, Riley's role seemed regulated to just being Buffy's boyfriend.
Which is a shame because I feel had they done a better job of exploring his character in terms of having lost his only real calling in life up until that point, it could've made for better story arcs.
He should have felt lost. And I just realized something: what did he do? He wasn't in the military anymore. Was he taking classes? Did he even have a job? He just pops in and out.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 24, 2017 22:28:43 GMT
You are absolutely correct about everything regarding the Queller. I also agree about Riley. Despite being a fan of his, I can see the writers didn't really have too much for him to do. Outside of being Initiative guy, Riley's role seemed regulated to just being Buffy's boyfriend. Which is a shame because I feel had they done a better job of exploring his character in terms of having lost his only real calling in life up until that point, it could've made for better story arcs. He should have felt lost. And I just realized something: what did he do? He wasn't in the military anymore. Was he taking classes? Did he even have a job? He just pops in and out. I know, right? I wish they had done more with Riley's character. And I definitely agree that him being lost would have been a good story arc.
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Post by ag25 on Nov 24, 2017 22:32:12 GMT
I think Angel's outburst in "Forgiving" is my favorite, because it starts so subtle; and he's so reassuring about the facts of everything at first. The fact that he wants Wesley to understand that this isn't Angelus, that he's invoked the anger of Angel when he's more balanced; cloaked in the faint of Angel telling him he understands why he did it. "The Trial" is a great a episode, and I can't help but wonder if, since he wins what is supposed to be this miracle that can't be granted, could it be that it comes back in another way? There's this trifecta of occurrences that later happen, in part because Angel couldn't save Darla directly through that trial, that had a more profound and resounding effect on Angel's life and Darla's and others: Angel sleeps with Darla in an attempt to lose his soul, only for him to... find it again, really; which leads him to saving Kate - the fact that he was able to enter Kate's apartment in the first place may itself be an expression of that miracle second chance, for Kate instead of Darla, but he can only get there on account of the revelation he had to renew his resolve - and then Connor is conceived in this midst of all of this, which does ultimate provide the sense of humanity and a second chance after a fashion for Darla, who willingly sacrifices herself to give him life. Whether or not there was a direct force, or... you know, someone snapped their fingers and said "wish granted" in reward for Angel's winning his trial, and all these other things happened as consolation for not being able to grant the more immediate, original request the trial was intended for; the outcome has at least same level of significant impact as simply curing Darla of the disease that would kill her, if not arguably more so. If she had simply been cured, Angel probably wouldn't have found himself in that very dark place that lead to him sleeping with Darla, there'd be no Connor, and what would even become of Kate?
Yes, Angel and Wesley's exchange in Forgiving is truly haunting and chilling! It was so well done!
And I agree, stargazer, with everything you said about The Trial.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Nov 27, 2017 14:30:34 GMT
An interesting observation about that exchange is that Wesley's side is all non-verbal. Everything the scene needs from him is done through Alexis' eyes and facial expressions, and it's wonderfully acted. The understanding, the shock, the fear, everything.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Dec 14, 2017 0:37:24 GMT
An interesting observation about that exchange is that Wesley's side is all non-verbal. Everything the scene needs from him is done through Alexis' eyes and facial expressions, and it's wonderfully acted. The understanding, the shock, the fear, everything. I 100% agree!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 9, 2018 17:39:05 GMT
Well, since I just finished Forgiving last night, I figured I'd revist this thread.
This is still one of the most intense episodes in Angel's history. I really don't know where to start. Great performances all around. Starting with Fred's shocked crying when she learns Connor disappeared through a portal. It's a powerful way for the writers to really touch on continuity. One moment wonderfully reminds the audience of her character's history. Her fear and concern for Connor is heartbreaking. Linwood's sleaziness is at an all time high. And even Justine gets some moments to shine.
One thing I noticed this time around is just how not funny the episode is. Even The Body had moments that were genuinely funny that make me laugh ("Xander decided he blames the wall"), but I didn't laugh once during Forgiving. Not even Sahjan's, "Flitted in a manly way," quip is enough to defuse the tense atmosphere of the episode.
Of course there's also Angel's determination. He goes from enraged, to cold, to calculating. Every beat builds on the one before it. When he threatens Linwood with torture, you know it's not a bluff. He'd already warned Lindwood that whatever happens to Connor will be visited on him. We've seen Angel angry, cold, and calculating, but never rolled up all at once like here. DB really does not get enough credit for his intensity in front of the camera.
And speaking of not getting enough credit, Gunn should get more recognition for being the level headed one for a change. Despite all evidence pointing towards Wesley's betrayal and even his own uncertainty about Wes's role in Connor's kidnapping, Gunn tries to talk down Angel several times against going after him. Gunn learned back in season 2 just how far Angel will go to get his revenge. And this time, it's for his child. He warns Fred against going after Angel. He knows Angel will burn LA to the ground to get Connor back. And Gunn's fear isn't that he can't take Angel. It's that he knows if he has to, he will kill Angel to save Fred's life.
On the other end of the emotional spectrum, Lorne is at his most comforting. There was something so genuine about Andy Hallett's performance as Lorne that really makes everything he says completely sincere. The scene where he discusses forgiving Wesley with Angel appears to get through. It's a strong moment that in any other episode or circumstance would've completely worked. But this episode would not have a fairy tale ending wrapped in a neat little moral.
All of which brings us to that final scene. Angel in Wesley's hospital room. Some fifteen years later and I can still remember how I felt watching that. It may be the best swerve in either show's history. Angel comes off as if he's ready to start forgiving Wesley or at least hear him out. But the suddenness of Angel completely turning around shocked me like no other moment. It was, at least to me, the most frightening scene on both shows. It was the most scared I have ever been for a character. I had no doubt, Angel is going to kill Wesley in that hospital bed. And there was absolutely nothing Wesley could do about it.
DB plays the moment like a rabid animal. He's screaming, snarling, slobbering. There is no dignity in his rage. There is nothing cool about this scene. It's frightening in its discomfort. And it makes absolute perfect sense. This isn't some mythic hero out for revenge against some sworn enemy. This is an enraged father unleashing all his hate on the man who kidnapped his child. Despite knowing what I know, I can't blame Angel.
And I can't blame Wesley either. As I said earlier, big props to Alexis for playing the entire episode silently. He didn't utter a single word. He told every emotion through his eyes. The fear, sadness, and shock. Every emotion is perfectly delivered.
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