Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 0:13:52 GMT
Luke and Darth Vader are not carbon copies of each other, neither is Aladdin and Jafar. The Joker is Batman's archnemesis, why isn't he a carbon copy of Batman? Admit it, Marvel gives us the same villain everytime. Luke and Vader are both force users, Aladdin and Jafar aren't archenemies really (they have ONE story where they battle) and Joker is the chaotic counter to Batman's extreme orderliness. Marvel just bothers remembering that the hero is the star of the show and the villains are there to facilitate the hero's story and not vice-versa. So sometimes the villain having the same abilities works. Aladdin and Jafar have a lot in common if you look closely, as do Batman and The Joker. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 0:34:04 GMT
Well, I did say "maybe"!  No that was towards the OP. |
|
|
|
Post by coldenhaulfield on Oct 18, 2017 4:59:01 GMT
Well, I did say "maybe"! No that was towards the OP. I know. I was just being a jagoff. Thanks for clarifying, though! |
|
|
|
Post by harpospoke on Oct 18, 2017 5:24:57 GMT
It's not an issue. It's called "having an archnemesis". The Archnemesis has classically had many of the same qualities of the hero, but twisted into evil. Luke and Vader; Aladdin and Jafar; and the list goes on and on. Luke and Darth Vader are not carbon copies of each other, neither is Aladdin and Jafar. The Joker is Batman's archnemesis, why isn't he a carbon copy of Batman? Admit it, Marvel gives us the same villain everytime. Lucas actually went out of his way to suggest to the audience that Luke was another version of Vader. Remember the scene in Empire where Luke defeats Vader in the vision and it turns out to be Luke's face in the Vader helmet? Then in Jedi Luke actually looks at his mechanical hand when he sees his father had a robot hand too. So obviously this "problem" is not really a problem at all. It's quite common. Maybe Green Lantern would have been better if they used his carbon copy....Sinestro. |
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 18, 2017 12:24:27 GMT
Luke and Darth Vader are not carbon copies of each other, neither is Aladdin and Jafar. The Joker is Batman's archnemesis, why isn't he a carbon copy of Batman? Admit it, Marvel gives us the same villain everytime. Lucas actually went out of his way to suggest to the audience that Luke was another version of Vader. Remember the scene in Empire where Luke defeats Vader in the vision and it turns out to be Luke's face in the Vader helmet? Then in Jedi Luke actually looks at his mechanical hand when he sees his father had a robot hand too. that is a fail. The obvious intention is to show what Luke will become if he gives in to hate/dark side, namely like Vader.
That is something completely different from your "Luke was another version of Vader" claim. In fact Luke's arc is that he rejects the dark side and does not become like Vader.
Also, where is the source of "Lucas went out of his way to suggest to the audience that Luke was another version of Vader" claim...? Provide proof, or it's a lie! If at all, Lucas was referring to Anakin's arc in Ep I-III (not Vader in IV-VI), who went through an Anti-Hero's arc going finally dark and detroying everything he wanted to protect. This is the dark-mirrored arc of Luke who rejected the dark side and saved those he loved, it's an ancient contrasting method of drama writing.
"Obviously" you misunderstand the point discussed. QED
|
|
|
|
Post by harpospoke on Oct 18, 2017 19:31:38 GMT
Lucas actually went out of his way to suggest to the audience that Luke was another version of Vader. Remember the scene in Empire where Luke defeats Vader in the vision and it turns out to be Luke's face in the Vader helmet? Then in Jedi Luke actually looks at his mechanical hand when he sees his father had a robot hand too. that is a fail. The obvious intention is to show what Luke will become if he gives in to hate/dark side, namely like Vader.
That is something completely different from your "Luke was another version of Vader" claim. In fact Luke's arc is that he rejects the dark side and does not become like Vader.
Also, where is the source of "Lucas went out of his way to suggest to the audience that Luke was another version of Vader" claim...? Provide proof, or it's a lie! If at all, Lucas was referring to Anakin's arc in Ep I-III (not Vader in IV-VI), who went through an Anti-Hero's arc going finally dark and detroying everything he wanted to protect. This is the dark-mirrored arc of Luke who rejected the dark side and saved those he loved, it's an ancient contrasting method of drama writing.
"Obviously" you misunderstand the point discussed. QED
Oh so now the villain being another version of the hero who takes the dark path is ok! Same when DC does it in BvS and WW. But when Marvel does it in Ant-Man and Iron Man, then it's bad! I don't think you thought that through very well. |
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 18, 2017 19:39:58 GMT
that is a fail. The obvious intention is to show what Luke will become if he gives in to hate/dark side, namely like Vader.
That is something completely different from your "Luke was another version of Vader" claim. In fact Luke's arc is that he rejects the dark side and does not become like Vader.
Also, where is the source of "Lucas went out of his way to suggest to the audience that Luke was another version of Vader" claim...? Provide proof, or it's a lie! If at all, Lucas was referring to Anakin's arc in Ep I-III (not Vader in IV-VI), who went through an Anti-Hero's arc going finally dark and detroying everything he wanted to protect. This is the dark-mirrored arc of Luke who rejected the dark side and saved those he loved, it's an ancient contrasting method of drama writing.
"Obviously" you misunderstand the point discussed. QED
Oh so now the villain being another version of the hero who takes the dark path is ok! Same when DC does it in BvS and WW. But when Marvel does it in Ant-Man and Iron Man, then it's bad! I don't think you thought that through very well. If you believe it, it's not a lie. Congrats, you get a price for the most absurd and pointless answers ever. I can do it too: If the world was actually a sphere people would fall off on the down side. It's the same principle like with asteroids always falling into a crater. And all the dumb dinosaurs were killed because they stood in one too. Get out of yours. |
|
|
|
Post by harpospoke on Oct 19, 2017 5:01:14 GMT
Oh so now the villain being another version of the hero who takes the dark path is ok! Same when DC does it in BvS and WW. But when Marvel does it in Ant-Man and Iron Man, then it's bad! I don't think you thought that through very well. If you believe it, it's not a lie. Congrats, you get a price for the most absurd and pointless answers ever. I can do it too: If the world was actually a sphere people would fall off on the down side. It's the same principle like with asteroids always falling into a crater. And all the dumb dinosaurs were killed because they stood in one too. Get out of yours. That's gotta win a prize for the most non-answer reply in history. Again...it's bad when Marvel uses a villain with the same traits as the hero but takes a dark path....but it's ok when Star Wars and DC do it. Is this like the "Marvel has weak villains" thing where it's ok when DC does the same thing? Or the "Marvel won't kill heroes" or "Marvel has fake deaths" and it's ok that DC does the same thing? |
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 19, 2017 11:32:18 GMT
If you believe it, it's not a lie. Congrats, you get a price for the most absurd and pointless answers ever. I can do it too: If the world was actually a sphere people would fall off on the down side. It's the same principle like with asteroids always falling into a crater. And all the dumb dinosaurs were killed because they stood in one too. Get out of yours. That's gotta win a prize for the most non-answer reply in history. Again...it's bad when Marvel uses a villain with the same traits as the hero but takes a dark path....but it's ok when Star Wars and DC do it. Is this like the "Marvel has weak villains" thing where it's ok when DC does the same thing? Or the "Marvel won't kill heroes" or "Marvel has fake deaths" and it's ok that DC does the same thing? Thank you for surrendering defeat by
- Not being able to present evidence for your Lucas "quote". - Trying to deflect and shift the topic to other obtuse, unnuanced claims - Not being able to explain how your claim of "Vader and Luke are the same" agrees with the films' arc of Luke not becoming Vader (or even the OP topic).
Your surrender is accepted and final. Try to make it out of that nasty fallacy crater next time. 
|
|
|
|
Post by harpospoke on Oct 19, 2017 18:28:17 GMT
That's gotta win a prize for the most non-answer reply in history. Again...it's bad when Marvel uses a villain with the same traits as the hero but takes a dark path....but it's ok when Star Wars and DC do it. Is this like the "Marvel has weak villains" thing where it's ok when DC does the same thing? Or the "Marvel won't kill heroes" or "Marvel has fake deaths" and it's ok that DC does the same thing? Thank you for surrendering defeat by
- Not being able to present evidence for your Lucas "quote". - Trying to deflect and shift the topic to other obtuse, unnuanced claims - Not being able to explain how your claim of "Vader and Luke are the same" agrees with the films' arc of Luke not becoming Vader (or even the OP topic).
Your surrender is accepted and final. Try to make it out of that nasty fallacy crater next time.
Interesting use of the word "surrender".  If you think this is a "Lucas quote" then it appears you don't know the definition of "quote" either: Now in case you've forgotten what the OP posted, it was this: Iron Man vs Iron Monger - two guys in Iron Man suits Hulk vs Abomination - two big green monsters Thor vs Loki - two demi-gods Captain America vs Red Skull - two people infected by super soldier serum Ant-Man vs Yellowjacket - two guys in suits that can shrink Black Panther vs Gold Jaguar - two guys in cat suits Marvel continues to give us the same villains, and Marvel fans say their villains are awesome.  As you can see, each example was exactly like Luke and Vader. Characters with the same traits who took the opposite path. Also similar to Wonder Woman/Ares and Superman/Zod. Which of course means we are left with the fanboy claim that things are only bad when it's in the "enemy franchise". It's only bad when Marvel does it. Naturally it's not a problem when DC and Star Wars does it. Now you can go back to pretending that Marvel villains are not taking the opposite path of the hero if you want, but the OP cited the examples that disprove that claim. |
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Oct 19, 2017 21:41:08 GMT
Iron Man vs Iron Monger - two guys in Iron Man suits Hulk vs Abomination - two big green monsters Thor vs Loki - two demi-gods Captain America vs Red Skull - two people infected by super soldier serum Ant-Man vs Yellowjacket - two guys in suits that can shrink Black Panther vs Gold Jaguar - two guys in cat suits Marvel continues to give us the same villains, and Marvel fans say their villains are awesome. As you can see, each example was exactly like Luke and Vader. Characters with the same traits who took the opposite path. Also similar to Wonder Woman/Ares and Superman/Zod. Which of course means we are left with the fanboy claim that things are only bad when it's in the "enemy franchise". It's only bad when Marvel does it. Naturally it's not a problem when DC and Star Wars does it. Now you can go back to pretending that Marvel villains are not taking the opposite path of the hero if you want, but the OP cited the examples that disprove that claim. Actually in almost none of those cases were they the mirror of the hero who simply took a darker path, Iron Monger isn't a genius inventor who simply uses his brilliance to become a villain, he's a money hungry crooked psychopath who scavenged and stole the heroes inventions to build his own over powered but inferior version of the heroes battle suit, Abomination isn't an accidental monster but a one track minded military twit with an inferiority complex to Hulk that drives him to mutate himself in a sad attempt to be stronger, whilst Hulk is a insanely strong but childlike persona who mostly wishes to be left in peace, only Cap & Skull are mirrors really, the rest are literally imitations born out of petty narcissism specifically trying to replicate the heroes own capabilities.
Vader is a warning to Luke, a glimpse at what his future could hold, and what he could become should he fall to the darkside, but also it's not ok because that mirroring of their paths isn't done really in the OT but in the PT and the PT is regarded near universally as dogshit, Vader being the ghost of sith future as it were is one thing but the other oh so on the nose mirroring done in TPM-ROTS is horrible.
I still maintain the mirroring of powers makes sense especially in first outings with the characters, it's just the easiest method to use, hell it works in most action films, I mean how many times do they have the highly skilled protagonist have that man to man beatdown with the evil bad ass to prove whose the best? and you really need a similar power setting to do this because otherwise you get crap like Ang Lee's Hulk where Hulk literally gets angry at a sentient cloud for the epic finale...not fun to watch.
|
|
