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Post by taylorfirst1 on Oct 26, 2017 14:50:04 GMT
Everyone repeat to yourself "It's just a comic book, I should really just relax".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 14:57:45 GMT
It's not about rounding them up and turning them into slaves. It's about regulating their heroic activities so they're not causing collateral damage on a regular basis. For example, if Spider-Man were to sign it, then they could grant him the power to operate as-needed in Queens (until he becomes a major problem that requires more regulation). If the document is ONLY about regulating the Avengers -- and NOTHING more -- then Cap could have just said, "Fine. I'm not an Avenger anymore. I'm just going to go start my own team or help people on my own," and it would have been FINE. But that wasn't an option for him (or the others). It was either sign or retire. So the point is that if you've got special abilities and you want to play hero, you gotta sign the SA. It would not grant him that power "...Avengers shall no longer be a private organization. Instead, they'll operate under the supervision of a United Nations panel, only when and if that panel deems it necessary" The UN would oversea Spder-Man's actions in Queens! Caps concern was that the accords would result in the possibility of the panel using or exploiting The Avengers for their own (political) interests Are you attempting to argue that Cap and his buddies could have left the Avengers and continued to operate as heroes (since the SA were "apparently" only concerned with SPECIFICALLY the Avengers) in Civil War? |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 26, 2017 15:01:47 GMT
Cap is a part of the second named group - enhanced individuals who are government employees. He may not have wanted to give up the Avengers name brand or, he may not have wanted to relinquish his title as a Captain in the military or as a SHIELD employee. The document would be even less effective if it was a blatant attempt to round up every enhanced individual on the planet and turn them into slave labor for the nations of the world. That's a good way to start another kind of civil war. It's not about rounding them up and turning them into slaves. It's about regulating their heroic activities so they're not causing collateral damage on a regular basis. For example, if Spider-Man were to sign it, then they could grant him the power to operate as-needed in Queens (until he becomes a major problem that requires more regulation). If the document is ONLY about regulating the Avengers -- and NOTHING more -- then Cap could have just said, "Fine. I'm not an Avenger anymore. I'm just going to go start my own team or help people on my own," and it would have been FINE. But that wasn't an option for him (or the others). It was either sign or retire. So the point is that if you've got special abilities and you want to play hero, you gotta sign the SA. Civil War never makes mention of asking enhanced individuals who do not work for the government or the Avengers to sign the accords. I don't think the accords define whether an activity is heroic or not. It just seeks to control when, where and how the Avengers and other similarly enhanced agents are deployed. Based on the working definition, Hawkeye, Black Widow, James and Tony should not have to sign it as they are not enhanced - they're just smart, and or hard working. The US Government started and initially funded the "Avengers Initiative" Stark came in later with significantly more funding making the Avengers a pseudo-private organization. SHIELD initially controlled their movements but, since the Avengers purview is worldwide, other countries wanted a say in how they were deployed - especially if it meant their country might be devasted like Sokovia as a result of their activities. The accords were not designed for Luke Cage who does not work for a government agency. I don't think you'd be within the purview of the document to go to Harlem and ask him to sign it. |
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Post by sostie on Oct 26, 2017 15:03:25 GMT
It would not grant him that power "...Avengers shall no longer be a private organization. Instead, they'll operate under the supervision of a United Nations panel, only when and if that panel deems it necessary" The UN would oversea Spder-Man's actions in Queens! Caps concern was that the accords would result in the possibility of the panel using or exploiting The Avengers for their own (political) interests Are you attempting to argue that Cap and his buddies could have left the Avengers and continued to operate as heroes (since the SA were "apparently" only concerned with SPECIFICALLY the Avengers) in Civil War? I have absolutely no idea, because that wasn't what the film was about, and they were dealing with the prospect of The Avengers becoming regulated. I'm sure there are plenty of outcomes and decisions that could have been made, but they are not all going to be considered in a film about the regulation and split of the team. Whether he considered forming his own team or not, the point is there still would have been an Avengers regulated by a few members of the UN...which is what the film and his protestations were about. Have you seen the film and read the comic...because you seem to be getting the plots of both mixed up with each other. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 15:06:52 GMT
It's not about rounding them up and turning them into slaves. It's about regulating their heroic activities so they're not causing collateral damage on a regular basis. For example, if Spider-Man were to sign it, then they could grant him the power to operate as-needed in Queens (until he becomes a major problem that requires more regulation). If the document is ONLY about regulating the Avengers -- and NOTHING more -- then Cap could have just said, "Fine. I'm not an Avenger anymore. I'm just going to go start my own team or help people on my own," and it would have been FINE. But that wasn't an option for him (or the others). It was either sign or retire. So the point is that if you've got special abilities and you want to play hero, you gotta sign the SA. Civil War never makes mention of asking enhanced individuals who do not work for the government or the Avengers to sign the accords. I don't think the accords define whether an activity is heroic or not. It just seeks to control when, where and how the Avengers and other similarly enhanced agents are deployed. Based on the working definition, Hawkeye, Black Widow, James and Tony should not have to sign it as they are not enhanced - they're just smart, and or hard working. The US Government started and initially funded the "Avengers Initiative" Stark came in later with significantly more funding making the Avengers a pseudo-private organization. SHIELD initially controlled their movements but, since the Avengers purview is worldwide, other countries wanted a say in how they were deployed - especially if meant their country might be devasted like Sokovia was. The accords were not designed for Luke Cage who does not work for a government agency. I don't think you'd be within the purview of the document to go to Harlem and ask him to sign it. If what you're saying is true (and I'm not sure it is), then the solution to the "Civil War" was as simple as "Team Cap" leaving the Avengers to operate on their own. But that wasn't an option for them. Because they didn't want to sign, they became fugitives. And Ross wants them all locked up. So it's clearly MORE than just about regulating the Avengers (as a unit). |
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Post by sostie on Oct 26, 2017 15:09:34 GMT
Perhaps one of Caps concerns was that an accord designed to regulate and control The Avengers would eventually become one to regulate and control anyone with abilities/powers
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 26, 2017 15:10:16 GMT
Are you attempting to argue that Cap and his buddies could have left the Avengers and continued to operate as heroes (since the SA were "apparently" only concerned with SPECIFICALLY the Avengers) in Civil War? I have absolutely no idea, because that wasn't what the film was about, and they were dealing with the prospect of The Avengers becoming regulated. I'm sure there are plenty of outcomes and decisions that could have been made, but they are not all going to be considered in a film about the regulation and split of the team. Whether he considered forming his own team or not, the point is there still would have been an Avengers regulated by a few members of the UN...which is what the film and his protestations were about. Have you seen the film and read the comic...because you seem to be getting the plots of both mixed up with each other. Actually yes, the accords make no specific allowance for someone who retires and continues to "work" under their own banner. The accords are vague and riddled with loopholes as such. I don't think they meant to be a catchall for every enhanced individual - at least not yet. What Cap really feared was that the accords could be expanded to take away freedoms from more people based on arbitrary definitions of who is enhanced and who is not. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 26, 2017 15:18:30 GMT
Civil War never makes mention of asking enhanced individuals who do not work for the government or the Avengers to sign the accords. I don't think the accords define whether an activity is heroic or not. It just seeks to control when, where and how the Avengers and other similarly enhanced agents are deployed. Based on the working definition, Hawkeye, Black Widow, James and Tony should not have to sign it as they are not enhanced - they're just smart, and or hard working. The US Government started and initially funded the "Avengers Initiative" Stark came in later with significantly more funding making the Avengers a pseudo-private organization. SHIELD initially controlled their movements but, since the Avengers purview is worldwide, other countries wanted a say in how they were deployed - especially if meant their country might be devasted like Sokovia was. The accords were not designed for Luke Cage who does not work for a government agency. I don't think you'd be within the purview of the document to go to Harlem and ask him to sign it. But that wasn't an option for them. Because they didn't want to sign, they became fugitives. And Ross wants them all locked up. So it's clearly MORE than just about regulating the Avengers (as a unit). That's a possibility. The reason Cap and company got into hot water was because they backed the Winter Soldier. It wasn't because they were in violation of a document they never signed and that generally would not apply to them if they chose to quit being a superhero. Who else, besides the Avengers, does the accords specifically address or obligate? No one HAS to sign the document. You could just quit or "retire." But quit or retire from what? The Government, the Avengers, public life using your powers internationally? It's never explicitly stated. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 15:34:15 GMT
If what you're saying is true (and I'm not sure it is), then the solution to the "Civil War" was as simple as "Team Cap" leaving the Avengers to operate on their own. But that wasn't an option for them. Because they didn't want to sign, they became fugitives. And Ross wants them all locked up. So it's clearly MORE than just about regulating the Avengers (as a unit). That's a possibility. The reason Cap and company got into hot water was because they backed the Winter Soldier. It wasn't because they were in violation of a document they never signed and that generally would not apply to them if they chose to quit being a superhero. Who else, besides the Avengers, does the accords specifically address or obligate? No one HAS to sign the document. You could just quit or "retire." But quit or retire from what? The Government, the Avengers, public life using your powers internationally? It's never explicitly stated. Ross gave them two options: sign or retire. And I don't think "retirement" entails them going off on their own to keep playing hero. The reason they were so specific about "the Avengers" in CW was because at that point in time, all the public superheroes were already actually ON the Avengers. So it's a relatively small group of enhanced individuals. But as more of them pop up, then it would certainly become an initiative of the UN-sponsored Avengers to ensure that these new superheroes were under control. The whole point of the SA was that these people are too power to NOT be regulated. So the logic follows. If the Avengers know about Doctor Strange, then they would most certainly be compelled to have him sign up or stop playing hero. Same with Spider-Man. Part of me thinks that Spider-Man actually did sign them. Maybe as a compromise, Tony told Ross that he would maintain full knowledge and control of any enhanced individual's secret identity and would only offer up that confidential information on a need-to-know basis. And with Doctor Strange, I can accept that maybe he's somewhat off the radar (since he did that whole Time Stone trick) and isn't out there using magic on purse-snatchers (thus making a scene). But my point is that if other EIs start popping up, they'll need to sign, otherwise the SA is pretty useless. |
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 26, 2017 16:17:24 GMT
Doctor Strange is not under any obligations to assign the accords, especially the other sorcerers. He also wasn't made to sign it in the comics because.. well good luck making the most powerful sorcerer sign something he doesn't want anything to be apart of. If the SA is designed to regulate superhumans (AND IT IS), then he ABSOLUTELY needs to sign it, otherwise it's a pointless document. Saying someone is "independent" doesn't work. Then they could have allowed the other Avengers to "go independent." But that wasn't an option for them. You either sign or RETIRE (as Ross said). And arguing that he "won't sign it so it's not worth trying" is stupid. That's not an excuse for them to not try. It's the LAW. How do you make him sign it? Threatened him or someone he cares about? His duty is to protect the world from threats beyond our real. I really want Ross to even try lift a finger on strange. The document was a foolish attempt by the government to control a specific group of people. The same kind of government who wanted to set a nukes off in New York, killing millions. Yeah that's who I want to control someone like the Avengers. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 26, 2017 16:18:34 GMT
That's a possibility. The reason Cap and company got into hot water was because they backed the Winter Soldier. It wasn't because they were in violation of a document they never signed and that generally would not apply to them if they chose to quit being a superhero. Who else, besides the Avengers, does the accords specifically address or obligate? No one HAS to sign the document. You could just quit or "retire." But quit or retire from what? The Government, the Avengers, public life using your powers internationally? It's never explicitly stated. Ross gave them two options: sign or retire. And I don't think "retirement" entails them going off on their own to keep playing hero. The reason they were so specific about "the Avengers" in CW was because at that point in time, all the public superheroes were already actually ON the Avengers. So it's a relatively small group of enhanced individuals. But as more of them pop up, then it would certainly become an initiative of the UN-sponsored Avengers to ensure that these new superheroes were under control. The whole point of the SA was that these people are too power to NOT be regulated. So the logic follows. If the Avengers know about Doctor Strange, then they would most certainly be compelled to have him sign up or stop playing hero. Same with Spider-Man. Part of me thinks that Spider-Man actually did sign them. Maybe as a compromise, Tony told Ross that he would maintain full knowledge and control of any enhanced individual's secret identity and would only offer up that confidential information on a need-to-know basis. And with Doctor Strange, I can accept that maybe he's somewhat off the radar (since he did that whole Time Stone trick) and isn't out there using magic on purse-snatchers (thus making a scene). But my point is that if other EIs start popping up, they'll need to sign, otherwise the SA is pretty useless. Your logic follows that the government would be interested in acquiring and regulating newly discovered enhanced individuals, however, the Accords as stipulated in the movie, do not account for that scenario in any way. Assuming the document hasn't been altered or amended since CW, Dr. Strange would not be accounted for legally. There is also a very simple way around participating in the Accords - you can move to and operating out of a country that has not signed/ratified them. Did T'Challa sign the accords? Let's say he did. How would that work? He's not a superhero but, he is enhanced. He also happens to be the head of a sovereign state. Technically, he had no dispensation or approval from anyone - let alone the UN - to go after the Winter Soldier. Should he be prosecuted? According to the ill-defined Accords the answer is yes - good luck with your war on Wakanda. The SA is useless. It was just a McGuffin to drive a plot revolving around two parties with extreme ideological differences. It's not the same as the superhero registration act of the comic books. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 26, 2017 16:27:36 GMT
If the SA is designed to regulate superhumans (AND IT IS), then he ABSOLUTELY needs to sign it, otherwise it's a pointless document. Saying someone is "independent" doesn't work. Then they could have allowed the other Avengers to "go independent." But that wasn't an option for them. You either sign or RETIRE (as Ross said). And arguing that he "won't sign it so it's not worth trying" is stupid. That's not an excuse for them to not try. It's the LAW. When he says retire he means from The Avengers. No, when Ross says retire, he means they no longer use their powers in public. Otherwise, if it was just retire from the Avengers, then there wouldn't need to be any Civil War movie because Cap and is team can just say "We retire from the Avengers and we're going to form our own team and since we're not part of the Avengers, the Accords don't apply to us and we don't have to sign."
Cap and his team weren't allowed to continue using their powers in public if they didn't sign.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 26, 2017 16:32:58 GMT
When he says retire he means from The Avengers. I've already posted what Ross lays out as the Accords and they are in relation to regulating the Avengers. The whole keeping tabs on superhumans/inhumans is something different being dealt with in Agents Of SHIELD No, that's not what he means. Otherwise, Cap could have just left and formed his own team and it would have been fine. You can't possibly be this dense. MCU fans are dense.
Just look at that 1 MCU fan. He claimed that Spider-Man doesn't have to sign the Accords because he's a minor. I pointed out that since the government doesn't know Spider-Man is a minor, Spider-Man would still have to sign the Accords unless he proves that he's a minor and the only way Spider-Man can prove he's a minor is to reveal to the government that he's Peter Parker. That 1 MCU fan then argued that Spider-Man won't have to sign because he'll just show the government his passport, which indicates that he's a minor.
Well, Spider-Man proving that he's a minor by showing the government a passport issued to Peter Parker is the same thing as Peter Parker revealing himself to the government that he's Spider-Man, which is what I said Spider-Man would have to do in order to be exempt from signing the Accords. So I was right and that MCU fan was wrong. But that MCU fan is so dense that he still won't admit that I was right and he was wrong.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 26, 2017 16:39:43 GMT
No, that's not what he means. Otherwise, Cap could have just left and formed his own team and it would have been fine. You can't possibly be this dense. So what he says is not what he means? Cap was against the accords because he was against The Avengers being governed first and foremost, which yes, would mean he would also be regulated. As for forming his own team...well he kinda did didn't he, when he fought the pro-accord group in Civil War If the Accords were meant to regulate those outside the Avengers as well Then Wakanda would not have nbeen so vocal in backing it - the King's son is Black Panther and Wakanda does not welcome interference from the outside world. They would not back an accord that would affect and restrict their heir, or their advance technology and how its used. The Accords didn't need Wakanda's backing. UN Security Council Resolutions only require approval from 9 of the 15 members, including all 5 permanent members. Wakanda isn't a permanent member of the UN Security Council so their approval wasn't needed for the Accords. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 26, 2017 16:52:14 GMT
If what you're saying is true (and I'm not sure it is), then the solution to the "Civil War" was as simple as "Team Cap" leaving the Avengers to operate on their own. But that wasn't an option for them. Because they didn't want to sign, they became fugitives. And Ross wants them all locked up. So it's clearly MORE than just about regulating the Avengers (as a unit). That's a possibility. The reason Cap and company got into hot water was because they backed the Winter Soldier. It wasn't because they were in violation of a document they never signed and that generally would not apply to them if they chose to quit being a superhero. Who else, besides the Avengers, does the accords specifically address or obligate? No one HAS to sign the document. You could just quit or "retire." But quit or retire from what? The Government, the Avengers, public life using your powers internationally? It's never explicitly stated. Quit from using their powers in public. That was the whole point of the Accords. If they were allowed to just leave the Avengers but still use their powers in public, then Cap could've just left the Avengers and formed his own team and continued using his powers in public. But the Accords didn't allow that, and that's why Cap threw such a huge hissy fit over signing the Accords. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 26, 2017 16:55:53 GMT
If the SA is designed to regulate superhumans (AND IT IS), then he ABSOLUTELY needs to sign it, otherwise it's a pointless document. Saying someone is "independent" doesn't work. Then they could have allowed the other Avengers to "go independent." But that wasn't an option for them. You either sign or RETIRE (as Ross said). And arguing that he "won't sign it so it's not worth trying" is stupid. That's not an excuse for them to not try. It's the LAW. The same kind of government who wanted to set a nukes off in New York, killing millions. The same government whose nuke destroyed the Chitauri mother ship and stopped the invasion, after the Avengers stood around for half an hour doing nothing but cracking jokes and 1-liners while the invasion was in progress. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 17:04:14 GMT
If the SA is designed to regulate superhumans (AND IT IS), then he ABSOLUTELY needs to sign it, otherwise it's a pointless document. Saying someone is "independent" doesn't work. Then they could have allowed the other Avengers to "go independent." But that wasn't an option for them. You either sign or RETIRE (as Ross said). And arguing that he "won't sign it so it's not worth trying" is stupid. That's not an excuse for them to not try. It's the LAW. How do you make him sign it? Threatened him or someone he cares about? His duty is to protect the world from threats beyond our real. I really want Ross to even try lift a finger on strange. The document was a foolish attempt by the government to control a specific group of people. The same kind of government who wanted to set a nukes off in New York, killing millions. Yeah that's who I want to control someone like the Avengers. We're not arguing about the merits of the law. We're talking about its enforcement. If they don't hunt down EIs to get them to sign it, then it's a pointless document. It has no teeth. That's how the rule of law works. If it was okay for Team Cap to just leave the Avengers and continue to be heroes, then they would have done that. But they couldn't BECAUSE IT'S AGAINST THE LAW. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 26, 2017 17:06:01 GMT
Your logic follows that the government would be interested in acquiring and regulating newly discovered enhanced individuals, however, the Accords as stipulated in the movie, do not account for that scenario in any way. Assuming the document hasn't been altered or amended since CW, Dr. Strange would not be accounted for legally. The UN passes resolutions all the time so they have plenty of lawyers reviewing each resolution to make sure there aren't loopholes. Their lawyers would've accounted for all those scenarios in the Accords. There is also a very simple way around participating in the Accords - you can move to and operating out of a country that has not signed/ratified them. If your country is a member of the UN, then any UN resolutions would apply to your country. There are 193 member countries in the UN, so good luck finding a country that isn't in the UN to move to. Did T'Challa sign the accords? T'Challa's father was King when the Accords were ratified so most likely T'Challa's father signed the Accords for Wakanda. He also happens to be the head of a sovereign state. Technically, he had no dispensation or approval from anyone - let alone the UN - to go after the Winter Soldier. Should he be prosecuted? You just answered your own question. As head of a sovereign state, T'Challa would have diplomatic immunity. The SA is useless. It was just a McGuffin to drive a plot That's what I said before. The Accords was just a lame plot device to give them a reason to fight in Civil War. In SMH, they retconned it so that the Accords never happened. That's why the school showed PSAs of a Cap, who's supposedly a criminal and fugitive from the law. No high school would ever show their students a PSA with a criminal in it. It would be as stupid as a high school football coach showing his team a PSA or motivational video with O.J. Simpson in it. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 17:06:27 GMT
Ross gave them two options: sign or retire. And I don't think "retirement" entails them going off on their own to keep playing hero. The reason they were so specific about "the Avengers" in CW was because at that point in time, all the public superheroes were already actually ON the Avengers. So it's a relatively small group of enhanced individuals. But as more of them pop up, then it would certainly become an initiative of the UN-sponsored Avengers to ensure that these new superheroes were under control. The whole point of the SA was that these people are too power to NOT be regulated. So the logic follows. If the Avengers know about Doctor Strange, then they would most certainly be compelled to have him sign up or stop playing hero. Same with Spider-Man. Part of me thinks that Spider-Man actually did sign them. Maybe as a compromise, Tony told Ross that he would maintain full knowledge and control of any enhanced individual's secret identity and would only offer up that confidential information on a need-to-know basis. And with Doctor Strange, I can accept that maybe he's somewhat off the radar (since he did that whole Time Stone trick) and isn't out there using magic on purse-snatchers (thus making a scene). But my point is that if other EIs start popping up, they'll need to sign, otherwise the SA is pretty useless. The SA is useless. It was just a McGuffin to drive a plot revolving around two parties with extreme ideological differences. That we agree on. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Oct 26, 2017 17:13:25 GMT
That's a possibility. The reason Cap and company got into hot water was because they backed the Winter Soldier. It wasn't because they were in violation of a document they never signed and that generally would not apply to them if they chose to quit being a superhero. Who else, besides the Avengers, does the accords specifically address or obligate? No one HAS to sign the document. You could just quit or "retire." But quit or retire from what? The Government, the Avengers, public life using your powers internationally? It's never explicitly stated. Quit from using their powers in public. That was the whole point of the Accords. If they were allowed to just leave the Avengers but still use their powers in public, then Cap could've just left the Avengers and formed his own team and continued using his powers in public. But the Accords didn't allow that, and that's why Cap threw such a huge hissy fit over signing the Accords. That was not the whole point of the Accords. The following line of dialogue is the only salient information that the movie gives us about the Accords. "The Sokovia Accords. Approved by 117 countries, it states that the Avengers shall no longer be a private organization. Instead, they'll operate under the supervision of a United Nations panel, only when and if that panel deems it necessary."
Here are the key takeaways from this passage of dialogue. - 117 countries approved the Accords (there are 195 countries in the world today - meaning if you chose to operate within the borders of a non aligned nation, you would be exempt from the accords).
- It specifically names the Avengers (and not all enhanced individuals everywhere).
- It states they (the Avengers) will no longer be a private organization (which technically, they never were, although a private corporation did fund them).
- It says that they will operate under a UN panel's supervision (they were formally managed by SHIELD).
- It says that they (the Avengers) will only operate "when and if that panel deems it necessary."
It doesn't say anything about using their powers in public or private. It does not say anything about using their powers domestically or internationally. It does not even say anything - explicitly - about enhanced individuals, if it did, Natasha, Clint, Tony and James would all be exempt from it. |
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