|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 30, 2017 15:19:00 GMT
By the way Cersei looks at them in the final scene, I am pretty sure she wrote the text both Sansa and Joffrey were acting in front of the court. It was a rehearsed affair designed to make Joffrey appear as a wise and merciful king. Even Pycelle's "treason is treason" was part of the script.
People discussing Varys or Sansa at this point do not seem to understand that Cersei and the whole Small Council are tightly working together to find a politically viable solution to the conflict.
There was a scene showing Cersei telling Sansa what to write back home with Littlefinger and Pycelle playing good and bad cop in the background, then the episode ended with Sansa’s well-rehearsed request for mercy to the new king in front of the whole court. Joffrey gave her an equally well-rehearsed answer with his conditions and at the beginning of the next episode, Varys is going to bring those to Ned Stark and push him to accept them.
Sansa doesn’t have a choice, she is doing what she’s told but this is to save her father and preserve peace. Varys is right when he tells Ned he serves the realm, only he does it on the queen's behalf. Even Sansa’s continued engagement to Joffrey is a costly step in this direction on Cersei’s part.
See how both Cersei and Joffrey look at Sansa when she enters the throne room:
|
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Oct 30, 2017 17:58:54 GMT
By the way Cersei looks at them in the final scene, I am pretty sure she wrote the text both Sansa and Joffrey were acting in front of the court. It was a rehearsed affair designed to make Joffrey appear as a wise and merciful king. Even Pycelle's "treason is treason" was part of the script. People discussing Varys or Sansa at this point do not seem to understand that Cersei and the whole Small Council are tightly working together to find a politically viable solution to the conflict. There was a scene showing Cersei telling Sansa what to write back home with Littlefinger and Pycelle playing good and bad cop in the background, then the episode ended with Sansa’s well-rehearsed request for mercy to the new king in front of the whole court. Joffrey gave her an equally well-rehearsed answer with his conditions and at the beginning of the next episode, Varys is going to bring those to Ned Stark and push him to accept them. Sansa doesn’t have a choice, she is doing what she’s told but this is to save her father and preserve peace. Varys is right when he tells Ned he serves the realm, only he does it on the queen's behalf. Even Sansa’s continued engagement to Joffrey is a costly step in this direction on Cersei’s part. See how both Cersei and Joffrey look at Sansa when she enters the throne room: Most certainly. It was all just a ruse. It's the same with Tywin and Tyrion during his trial. Tywin was just going through with it so that Tyrion could plead mercy and be sent to the Wall. Tywin had it all worked out. |
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 30, 2017 18:05:44 GMT
It's the same with Tywin and Tyrion during his trial. Tywin was just going through with it so that Tyrion could plead mercy and be sent to the Wall. Tywin had it all worked out. Tyrion thought himself too fine a man for the whores of Mole's Town. What an arrogant prick  |
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 744
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Oct 30, 2017 19:19:25 GMT
By the way Cersei looks at them in the final scene, I am pretty sure she wrote the text both Sansa and Joffrey were acting in front of the court. It was a rehearsed affair designed to make Joffrey appear as a wise and merciful king. Even Pycelle's "treason is treason" was part of the script. People discussing Varys or Sansa at this point do not seem to understand that Cersei and the whole Small Council are tightly working together to find a politically viable solution to the conflict. There was a scene showing Cersei telling Sansa what to write back home with Littlefinger and Pycelle playing good and bad cop in the background, then the episode ended with Sansa’s well-rehearsed request for mercy to the new king in front of the whole court. Joffrey gave her an equally well-rehearsed answer with his conditions and at the beginning of the next episode, Varys is going to bring those to Ned Stark and push him to accept them. Sansa doesn’t have a choice, she is doing what she’s told but this is to save her father and preserve peace. Varys is right when he tells Ned he serves the realm, only he does it on the queen's behalf. Even Sansa’s continued engagement to Joffrey is a costly step in this direction on Cersei’s part. See how both Cersei and Joffrey look at Sansa when she enters the throne room: I agree that both Cersei (and Varys) manipulated that court appearance behind the scenes, indeed from the books we know that Varys schemed to get Ser Barristan dismissed in hopes he would then seek out and support Daenerys, and of course was instrumental in getting Ned Stark to agree to 'confess.' I doubt that Pycelle was involved though, at least at that juncture, Cersei had very little respect for him and his "Treason is treason" interjection was treated by the players in the scene like an unwelcome outburst from an audience member during a stage performance. Pycelle was just trying to appear 'more loyal than loyal' to ingratiate himself with young Joffrey and once he realized the way the winds were blowing changed his tune to 'The Gods may be just, but they're also merciful' as he caught onto what outcome Cersei desired. |
|
|
|
Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 30, 2017 21:19:07 GMT
By the way Cersei looks at them in the final scene, I am pretty sure she wrote the text both Sansa and Joffrey were acting in front of the court. It was a rehearsed affair designed to make Joffrey appear as a wise and merciful king. Even Pycelle's "treason is treason" was part of the script. People discussing Varys or Sansa at this point do not seem to understand that Cersei and the whole Small Council are tightly working together to find a politically viable solution to the conflict. There was a scene showing Cersei telling Sansa what to write back home with Littlefinger and Pycelle playing good and bad cop in the background, then the episode ended with Sansa’s well-rehearsed request for mercy to the new king in front of the whole court. Joffrey gave her an equally well-rehearsed answer with his conditions and at the beginning of the next episode, Varys is going to bring those to Ned Stark and push him to accept them. Sansa doesn’t have a choice, she is doing what she’s told but this is to save her father and preserve peace. Varys is right when he tells Ned he serves the realm, only he does it on the queen's behalf. Even Sansa’s continued engagement to Joffrey is a costly step in this direction on Cersei’s part. See how both Cersei and Joffrey look at Sansa when she enters the throne room: Yes I can see how cerseis expression changed when She saw Sansa enter the court ...if only Joffrey didn't lose his temper and execute ned things would be so different even cersei tried to stop him do |
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Oct 30, 2017 21:35:11 GMT
I agree that both Cersei (and Varys) manipulated that court appearance behind the scenes, indeed from the books we know that Varys schemed to get Ser Barristan dismissed in hopes he would then seek out and support Daenerys, and of course was instrumental in getting Ned Stark to agree to 'confess.' I doubt that Pycelle was involved though, at least at that juncture, Cersei had very little respect for him and his "Treason is treason" interjection was treated by the players in the scene like an unwelcome outburst from an audience member in a stage performance. Pycelle was just trying to appear 'more loyal than loyal' to ingratiate himself with young Joffrey and once he realized the way the winds were blowing changed his tune to 'The Gods may be just, but they're also merciful' as he caught onto what outcome Cersei desired.True. Pycelle just knew he needed to always agree/side with the Lannisters. Whatever they said, it was his role to appear to be the wise councilor who always sees merit in what Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey had to say/do. |
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 744
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Oct 30, 2017 23:35:58 GMT
I agree that both Cersei (and Varys) manipulated that court appearance behind the scenes, indeed from the books we know that Varys schemed to get Ser Barristan dismissed in hopes he would then seek out and support Daenerys, and of course was instrumental in getting Ned Stark to agree to 'confess.' I doubt that Pycelle was involved though, at least at that juncture, Cersei had very little respect for him and his "Treason is treason" interjection was treated by the players in the scene like an unwelcome outburst from an audience member in a stage performance. Pycelle was just trying to appear 'more loyal than loyal' to ingratiate himself with young Joffrey and once he realized the way the winds were blowing changed his tune to 'The Gods may be just, but they're also merciful' as he caught onto what outcome Cersei desired.True. Pycelle just knew he needed to always agree/side with the Lannisters. Whatever they said, it was his role to appear to be the wise councilor who always sees merit in what Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey had to say/do. Yes, it's too bad his scene with Tywin gutting the fish was excised, that's perhaps Pycelle's best scene and his motivations make much better sense after viewing it. |
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 31, 2017 5:52:57 GMT
I doubt that Pycelle was involved though, at least at that juncture, Cersei had very little respect for him and his "Treason is treason" interjection was treated by the players in the scene like an unwelcome outburst from an audience member during a stage performance. Pycelle was just trying to appear 'more loyal than loyal' to ingratiate himself with young Joffrey and once he realized the way the winds were blowing changed his tune to 'The Gods may be just, but they're also merciful' as he caught onto what outcome Cersei desired. A valid possibility but Pycelle's vindictive tone in this scene seems out of character, forced. We've seen Pycelle as a quieter man speaking in a wiser, more careful way before. As noted, he is a follower through and through, will never bark the way he does there without leave from his masters. He keeps his usual range in the earlier scene in which Sansa is intimidated, echoing Cersei's concern and use of the term "traitor". Both he and Varys play the bad guys there, while Littlefinger balances things out and allows Cersei to take Sansa's side: His angry "treason is a noxious weed" in the throne room is only there so Joffrey can interrupt him, taking the role of the good, wise king who wants to hear people speak before he takes a decision. This is a play for the court, not for Sansa, a demonstration of the qualities of the new king. We hear Littlefinger bark in that scene too, switching to bad cop for the occasion, and we never get a shot showing Cersei annoyed at any of it. This time, Varys is the one opening conciliation with "a child's faith. Such sweet innocence." These two switching role is another key the writers give the audience so we can understand it's all fake. Everything in these two scenes is meant to come out as a scripted play, apart from Sansa's answers in the first one. |
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Oct 31, 2017 6:06:21 GMT
Yes, it's too bad his scene with Tywin gutting the fish was excised, that's perhaps Pycelle's best scene and his motivations make much better sense after viewing it. I actually made my own edit where I spliced it back into the season. It's a great scene for that character. Also, there's never too much Tywin either.  |
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 31, 2017 6:42:55 GMT
Cersei looks nervous near the end of the throne room scene, just before Joffrey "decides", then relieved as he says "your sweet words have moved me". This is where we see she is not certain what he is going to do. Will he play his part as agreed?
All the looks she gave Sansa in that scene were sympathetic, she sounded kind when speaking to her. It was not the display of power of the Queen Mother in charge, as in the intimidation scene. Cersei didn't look regal in these tiny moments even though she was meant to in such an official situation. It tells you she does care for Sansa, whom she sees as the girl she once was.
|
|
|
|
Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 31, 2017 12:50:32 GMT
Yes I agree she did show some kind of interest/care for Sansa at some point but she called her a B and W this season
she also I think had animosity towards her because of her family
I know you don't agree with this but it was cerseis suggestion to kill her wolf lady Robert wouldn't even thought of that
She did it to get revenge or to please Joffrey either way that was unesscary on her part ,I do think she felt sorry for Sansa
When Joffrey decided to marry Margery you can see cersei looking at Sansa almost relieved but then LF showed up and ruined everything
I wonder if cersei/Joffrey would let Sansa go ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 31, 2017 13:56:44 GMT
Yes I agree she did show some kind of interest/care for Sansa at some point but she called her a B and W this season she also I think had animosity towards her because of her family I know you don't agree with this but it was cerseis suggestion to kill her wolf lady Robert wouldn't even thought of that She did it to get revenge or to please Joffrey either way that was unesscary on her part ,I do think she felt sorry for Sansa When Joffrey decided to marry Margery you can see cersei looking at Sansa almost relieved but then LF showed up and ruined everything I wonder if cersei/Joffrey would let Sansa go ? Cersei's feelings towards Sansa changed radically after she thought she had been involved in Joffrey's death. Killing the wolf was not directed at Sansa. It was done to assert her power in front of the Starks at a time she feared to be exposed for what happened in the tower. Cersei was showing Ned Stark she was Number 2 here and he wasn't. Emo-fools make a major drama of it but killing a dog is nothing and Robert himself supported the decision. No, of course Cersei would not let Sansa go as long as the war with her family was going on. She was a valuable hostage and, after Robb's defeat, the "key to the North". Controlling her was of prime importance and the Tyrells didn't want to marry her to Loras because they liked her. |
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Oct 31, 2017 16:12:47 GMT
Yes I agree she did show some kind of interest/care for Sansa at some point but she called her a B and W this season she also I think had animosity towards her because of her family I know you don't agree with this but it was cerseis suggestion to kill her wolf lady Robert wouldn't even thought of that She did it to get revenge or to please Joffrey either way that was unesscary on her part ,I do think she felt sorry for Sansa When Joffrey decided to marry Margery you can see cersei looking at Sansa almost relieved but then LF showed up and ruined everything. I wonder if cersei/Joffrey would let Sansa go ? Wasn't that prior to Jaime telling her Olenna was the one responsible for Joffrey's murder? I would be interested to know what Cersei thinks of Sansa now. Surely she will not be happy with Sansa's support of Jon, who in turn supports Dany. However, it would be interesting to see how Cersei is with Sansa should they meet again. |
|
|
|
Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 31, 2017 20:33:03 GMT
Yes I agree she did show some kind of interest/care for Sansa at some point but she called her a B and W this season she also I think had animosity towards her because of her family I know you don't agree with this but it was cerseis suggestion to kill her wolf lady Robert wouldn't even thought of that She did it to get revenge or to please Joffrey either way that was unesscary on her part ,I do think she felt sorry for Sansa When Joffrey decided to marry Margery you can see cersei looking at Sansa almost relieved but then LF showed up and ruined everything. I wonder if cersei/Joffrey would let Sansa go ? Wasn't that prior to Jaime telling her Olenna was the one responsible for Joffrey's murder? I would be interested to know what Cersei thinks of Sansa now. Surely she will not be happy with Sansa's support of Jon, who in turn supports Dany. However, it would be interesting to see how Cersei is with Sansa should they meet again. Yes me too @shinnicknrth yes Leo of Red Keep we really don't know how cersei feels now and she doesn't know about LF does she  ? Personally for me that is one meeting that will be one of the best scened ever cersei and Sansa meeting again I don't know how it will go ,either Leo will be right and some kind of alliance will happen between them, or Sansa will be the younger Queen qouted in books who will cast cersei down , it's not Dany and it won't be some kind of danys offspring and it certainly was not Margary ,either the casting down will be impeccable or forceful |
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 1, 2017 2:54:25 GMT
Wasn't that prior to Jaime telling her Olenna was the one responsible for Joffrey's murder? I would be interested to know what Cersei thinks of Sansa now. Surely she will not be happy with Sansa's support of Jon, who in turn supports Dany. However, it would be interesting to see how Cersei is with Sansa should they meet again. Yes me too @shinnicknrth yes Leo of Red Keep we really don't know how cersei feels now and she doesn't know about LF does she ? Personally for me that is one meeting that will be one of the best scened ever cersei and Sansa meeting again I don't know how it will go ,either Leo will be right and some kind of alliance will happen between them, or Sansa will be the younger Queen qouted in books who will cast cersei down , it's not Dany and it won't be some kind of danys offspring and it certainly was not Margary ,either the casting down will be impeccable or forceful There will be no casting down. The twist master promised a "bittersweet ending" and it will all end in a Lannister triumph  |
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Nov 1, 2017 7:24:11 GMT
Yes me too @shinnicknrth yes Leo of Red Keep we really don't know how cersei feels now and she doesn't know about LF does she ? Personally for me that is one meeting that will be one of the best scened ever cersei and Sansa meeting again I don't know how it will go ,either Leo will be right and some kind of alliance will happen between them, or Sansa will be the younger Queen qouted in books who will cast cersei down , it's not Dany and it won't be some kind of danys offspring and it certainly was not Margary ,either the casting down will be impeccable or forceful Why do you think it wasn't Margaery? She did cast Cersei down temporarily. |
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 1, 2017 7:44:42 GMT
we really don't know how cersei feels now and she doesn't know about LF does she ? We do not know how Cersei feels about Sansa now but she must know about Littlefinger helping defeat the Boltons and doing the opposite of what he promised her in S5. It is a pity Olenna did not play that card she had when she spoke with Jaime. She could have told him of Littlefinger's role in both Joffrey's death and Cersei's denunciation to the High Sparrow to make sure these two would never become allies any more. Nevertheless, Sansa received an invitation to the parley in King's Landing and decided to send Brienne in her stead. We saw no more about it, didn't see the letter or any further exchange. The possibility Littlefinger was executed in order to build an alliance between Sansa and Cersei still exists. When an idealistic fool and a revolutionary tyrant who intends to "break the wheel" team up after making the biggest mess in the history of Westeros ("hello from the Night King, thanks for the dragon, idiots"), Cersei and Sansa are natural political allies. |
|
|
|
Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 2, 2017 23:53:34 GMT
Yes me too @shinnicknrth yes Leo of Red Keep we really don't know how cersei feels now and she doesn't know about LF does she ? Personally for me that is one meeting that will be one of the best scened ever cersei and Sansa meeting again I don't know how it will go ,either Leo will be right and some kind of alliance will happen between them, or Sansa will be the younger Queen qouted in books who will cast cersei down , it's not Dany and it won't be some kind of danys offspring and it certainly was not Margary ,either the casting down will be impeccable or forceful Why do you think it wasn't Margaery? She did cast Cersei down temporarily. It's for that reason I don't think it was Margery because it was temporary plus cersei was not queen she was not crowned yet , but she is now , cerseis reign is happening now and to me the casting down just sounds final won't be temporary and I think would be bittersweet for someone who cersei was grooming since she was a young girl who suffered in her family's hands to cast her down that would be Sansa stark , and Sansa learned a lot from cersei to beat her in her own game or there may be an alliance in the end like Leo believes but I just don't think so . |
|
|
|
Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 3, 2017 0:00:58 GMT
we really don't know how cersei feels now and she doesn't know about LF does she ? We do not know how Cersei feels about Sansa now but she must know about Littlefinger helping defeat the Boltons and doing the opposite of what he promised her in S5. It is a pity Olenna did not play that card she had when she spoke with Jaime. She could have told him of Littlefinger's role in both Joffrey's death and Cersei's denunciation to the High Sparrow to make sure these two would never become allies any more. Nevertheless, Sansa received an invitation to the parley in King's Landing and decided to send Brienne in her stead. We saw no more about it, didn't see the letter or any further exchange. The possibility Littlefinger was executed in order to build an alliance between Sansa and Cersei still exists. When an idealistic fool and a revolutionary tyrant who intends to "break the wheel" team up after making the biggest mess in the history of Westeros ("hello from the Night King, thanks for the dragon, idiots"), Cersei and Sansa are natural political allies. As of now they are not unless something changes if Sansa and Jon become a thing and Dany gets in the way of things Sansa will feel she has no one to turn too only then maybe there is a chance.,and that would mean all her other family members will need to be gone , she is Very loyal to the Starks ,yes that was one scene I wanted to know more about cersei did invite Sansa and I remember cersei asking her right hand man if she was here ....everyone assumes she meant Dany but I think she was referring to Sansa in that scene and looked disappointed when she didn't come , she addressed Dany being late when she saw her in the pit meeting ...but I think cersei was looking for her , the problem is Sansa will have hard time trusting Cersei. Or if Sansa and Jon become a thing and she gets pregnant , Jon dies in battles leaving Sansa alone , and let's assume cerseis baby doesn't make it , your theory cersei offering to adopt Sansa and now an air to her family may happen don't know how she will feel about it being half stark/targ baby -under the Lannister name ..can you imagine ? That would be a twist of the twists. |
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 3, 2017 2:50:05 GMT
the problem is Sansa will have hard time trusting Cersei. … your theory cersei offering to adopt Sansa and now an air to her family may happen don't know how she will feel about it being half stark/targ baby -under the Lannister name ..can you imagine ? That would be a twist of the twists. Sansa has learned to deal with people she doesn't trust. That's what the other fools can't do, neither Jon nor Daenerys. They are stuck with their naive ideals of a world beaten down to perfection by violence and it will get them all flushed away. That could be one theme of the story. As to a "twist of the twist", this is exactly what you should be waiting for. The writing is so cheap, even the original one by GRRM, that the series won't go out without some major prank. |
|
? Personally for me that is one meeting that will be one of the best scened ever cersei and Sansa meeting again I don't know how it will go ,either Leo will be right and some kind of alliance will happen between them, or Sansa will be the younger Queen qouted in books who will cast cersei down , it's not Dany and it won't be some kind of danys offspring and it certainly was not Margary ,either the casting down will be impeccable or forceful