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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 11, 2017 21:27:47 GMT
I wasn't stressing. I was just discussing how our universe works.
It's ok to find peace, but when you're denying reality to do it, that's just delusional. I would say it's more disturbing for a human being to willing trick themselves to such a degree. The universe is that old, whether it conforms to biblical fairy tales or not.
I guess that's where we differ. I don't have a problem with people deluding themselves if it makes them happy. More happy people is a good thing to me. Don't change what I believe. I can still logically come to the conclusion that religion is an invention to deal with our intelligence. (we are the only species which seems to be aware that we are going to die) So I don't see who it would disturb. It certainly doesn't disturb me. It's absolutely true that the universe is as old as it is no matter what anyone believes. ...So...what's the harm? Well I do because it doesn't just make people happy. It also causes people to blow up buildings and hate gay people and deny basic scientific facts.
You can't just look at the good parts of it and pretend the bad parts of it don't exist.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 11, 2017 21:41:39 GMT
I guess that's where we differ. I don't have a problem with people deluding themselves if it makes them happy. More happy people is a good thing to me. Don't change what I believe. I can still logically come to the conclusion that religion is an invention to deal with our intelligence. (we are the only species which seems to be aware that we are going to die) So I don't see who it would disturb. It certainly doesn't disturb me. It's absolutely true that the universe is as old as it is no matter what anyone believes. ...So...what's the harm? Well I do because it doesn't just make people happy. It also causes people to blow up buildings and hate gay people and deny basic scientific facts.
You can't just look at the good parts of it and pretend the bad parts of it don't exist.
Wait, I thought that was your explicit recommendation for enjoying the MCU, as exemplified by every single syllable of every word you've ever posted here? I don't get it... These two things are contradictory... |
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 21:58:13 GMT
I guess that's where we differ. I don't have a problem with people deluding themselves if it makes them happy. More happy people is a good thing to me. Don't change what I believe. I can still logically come to the conclusion that religion is an invention to deal with our intelligence. (we are the only species which seems to be aware that we are going to die) So I don't see who it would disturb. It certainly doesn't disturb me. It's absolutely true that the universe is as old as it is no matter what anyone believes. ...So...what's the harm? Well I do because it doesn't just make people happy. It also causes people to blow up buildings and hate gay people and deny basic scientific facts.
You can't just look at the good parts of it and pretend the bad parts of it don't exist.
So it does look like you are stressing. You can find examples of every point of view "causing people to do evil things" if that's all it takes to suggest that we control what other people believe. There are mentally disturbed people of every race and belief. There are atheists who are so anti-human they openly wish for a plague to wipe out humanity. It's starting to smell like elitism, which I think is evil. What is your "solution"? Do you believe religion should be outlawed or just shouted down? Does it matter that the overwhelming percentage of religious people do good things ...or are just the small minority the focus? I admit I have a bias. It makes my mother happy to believe it. It does me no harm for her to believe in that stuff and be happy. As a matter of fact I get the benefit of a happy mother. If someone tried to ruin her belief it's likely I would punch them in the face. That's not even getting into the harm that atheists like those in the environmental movement are doing to people in 3rd world countries. There is plenty of "blame" to go around if that is a reason to control what other people believe. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 11, 2017 22:05:54 GMT
Well I do because it doesn't just make people happy. It also causes people to blow up buildings and hate gay people and deny basic scientific facts.
You can't just look at the good parts of it and pretend the bad parts of it don't exist.
So it does look like you are stressing. You can find examples of every point of view "causing people to do evil things" if that's all it takes to suggest that we control what other people believe. There are mentally disturbed people of every race and belief. There are atheists who are so anti-human they openly wish for a plague to wipe out humanity. It's starting to smell like elitism, which I think is evil. What is your "solution"? Do you believe religion should be outlawed or just shouted down? Does it matter that the overwhelming percentage of religious people do good things ...or are just the small minority the focus? I admit I have a bias. It makes my mother happy to believe it. It does me no harm for her to believe in that stuff and be happy. As a matter of fact I get the benefit of a happy mother. If someone tried to ruin her belief it's likely I would punch them in the face. That's not even getting into the harm that atheists like those in the environmental movement are doing to people in 3rd world countries. There is plenty of "blame" to go around if that is a reason to control what other people believe. Of course, you can find harm anybody causes. I'm not concerned with what the majority does or doesn't do. I'm specifically talking about rational thought and how we determine what is true. It's not elitism, and I'm not suggesting outlawing religion or shouting it down. I'm just calling it what it is. Irrational and delusional. And I'm promoting rational thought and accepting reality for what it is. That is all. Any harm you can find atheists causing is beside the point because atheism doesn't promote any specific action or belief. It's just not believing in a god. And the point is to accept what is true about reality, and not just whatever makes us feel good which can be used to justify any action you want.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 22:16:49 GMT
So it does look like you are stressing. You can find examples of every point of view "causing people to do evil things" if that's all it takes to suggest that we control what other people believe. There are mentally disturbed people of every race and belief. There are atheists who are so anti-human they openly wish for a plague to wipe out humanity. It's starting to smell like elitism, which I think is evil. What is your "solution"? Do you believe religion should be outlawed or just shouted down? Does it matter that the overwhelming percentage of religious people do good things ...or are just the small minority the focus? I admit I have a bias. It makes my mother happy to believe it. It does me no harm for her to believe in that stuff and be happy. As a matter of fact I get the benefit of a happy mother. If someone tried to ruin her belief it's likely I would punch them in the face. That's not even getting into the harm that atheists like those in the environmental movement are doing to people in 3rd world countries. There is plenty of "blame" to go around if that is a reason to control what other people believe. Of course you can harm anybody causes. And I'm not concerned with what the majority does or doesn't do. I'm specifically talking about rational thought and how we determine what is true. It's not elitism, and I'm not suggesting outlawing religion or shouting it down. I'm just calling it what it is. Irrational and delusional. That is all. Any harm you can find atheists causing is beside the point, which is believing what is true about reality, and not just whatever makes us feel good.
I think feeling good is far more important that "knowing the truth". I've managed to come to terms with the fact that I only get to exist for a short time. I'm still very happy. But others will have a harder time with that. Once we are gone...that's it. I don't see how it's more important to "know the truth" than enjoying our brief period of existence. That doesn't make any sense to me. Being happy while we exist is more important by a thousand miles....it's not even close. That fact that we are only here for a brief moment in time makes it far more important that we enjoy it. It seriously does not matter one bit what we believed after we are gone. Being "right" about the universe won't matter. We will still be gone forever. If someone can find peace and happiness believing in a god or something, that's fine with me. I mean...you know how hard it is to find contentment in our lives? We are flawed organisms. If there were a god, I would have a long list of things to complain about if I met him/her (what's up with testicles on the outside of the body?...what's up with STDs?....aging? ...difficult childbirth?....sleeping?) I say let people believe what they want. It's the Libertarian in me. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 11, 2017 22:29:33 GMT
Of course you can harm anybody causes. And I'm not concerned with what the majority does or doesn't do. I'm specifically talking about rational thought and how we determine what is true. It's not elitism, and I'm not suggesting outlawing religion or shouting it down. I'm just calling it what it is. Irrational and delusional. That is all. Any harm you can find atheists causing is beside the point, which is believing what is true about reality, and not just whatever makes us feel good.
I think feeling good is far more important that "knowing the truth". I've managed to come to terms with the fact that I only get to exist for a short time. I'm still very happy. But others will have a harder time with that. Once we are gone...that's it. I don't see how it's more important to "know the truth" than enjoying our brief period of existence. That doesn't make any sense to me. Being happy while we exist is more important by a thousand miles....it's not even close. That fact that we are only here for a brief moment in time makes it far more important that we enjoy it. It seriously does not matter one bit what we believed after we are gone. Being "right" about the universe won't matter. We will still be gone forever. If someone can find peace and happiness believing in a god or something, that's fine with me. I mean...you know how hard it is to find contentment in our lives? We are flawed organisms. If there were a god, I would have a long list of things to complain about if I met him/her (what's up with testicles on the outside of the body?...what's up with STDs?....aging? ...difficult childbirth?....sleeping?) I say let people believe what they want. It's the Libertarian in me.
You can justify believing whatever you like by the idea of "it makes me feel good"
If you're saying you don't care what's true, then ok.
But it's knowledge that has led to better qualities of life, higher morality, better technology, not just believing whatever delusion makes you feel good.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 11, 2017 22:35:07 GMT
I think feeling good is far more important that "knowing the truth". I've managed to come to terms with the fact that I only get to exist for a short time. I'm still very happy. But others will have a harder time with that. Once we are gone...that's it. I don't see how it's more important to "know the truth" than enjoying our brief period of existence. That doesn't make any sense to me. Being happy while we exist is more important by a thousand miles....it's not even close. That fact that we are only here for a brief moment in time makes it far more important that we enjoy it. It seriously does not matter one bit what we believed after we are gone. Being "right" about the universe won't matter. We will still be gone forever. If someone can find peace and happiness believing in a god or something, that's fine with me. I mean...you know how hard it is to find contentment in our lives? We are flawed organisms. If there were a god, I would have a long list of things to complain about if I met him/her (what's up with testicles on the outside of the body?...what's up with STDs?....aging? ...difficult childbirth?....sleeping?) I say let people believe what they want. It's the Libertarian in me.
You can justify believing whatever you like by the idea of "it makes me feel good"
If you're saying you don't care what's true, then ok.
But it's knowledge that has led to better qualities of life, higher morality, better technology, not just believing whatever delusion makes you feel good.
He is saying that. He's a nihilist and moral relativist and anti-intellectual. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 11, 2017 22:36:27 GMT
Of course you can harm anybody causes. And I'm not concerned with what the majority does or doesn't do. I'm specifically talking about rational thought and how we determine what is true. It's not elitism, and I'm not suggesting outlawing religion or shouting it down. I'm just calling it what it is. Irrational and delusional. That is all. Any harm you can find atheists causing is beside the point, which is believing what is true about reality, and not just whatever makes us feel good.
I think feeling good is far more important that "knowing the truth". I've managed to come to terms with the fact that I only get to exist for a short time. I'm still very happy. But others will have a harder time with that. Once we are gone...that's it. I don't see how it's more important to "know the truth" than enjoying our brief period of existence. That doesn't make any sense to me. Being happy while we exist is more important by a thousand miles....it's not even close. That fact that we are only here for a brief moment in time makes it far more important that we enjoy it. It seriously does not matter one bit what we believed after we are gone. Being "right" about the universe won't matter. We will still be gone forever. If someone can find peace and happiness believing in a god or something, that's fine with me. I mean...you know how hard it is to find contentment in our lives? We are flawed organisms. If there were a god, I would have a long list of things to complain about if I met him/her (what's up with testicles on the outside of the body?...what's up with STDs?....aging? ...difficult childbirth?....sleeping?) I say let people believe what they want. It's the Libertarian in me. So basically you don't know anything at all about Libertarianism either. It doesn't just mean "whatever, maaannn." But: whatever, maaannn... |
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 22:42:47 GMT
I think feeling good is far more important that "knowing the truth". I've managed to come to terms with the fact that I only get to exist for a short time. I'm still very happy. But others will have a harder time with that. Once we are gone...that's it. I don't see how it's more important to "know the truth" than enjoying our brief period of existence. That doesn't make any sense to me. Being happy while we exist is more important by a thousand miles....it's not even close. That fact that we are only here for a brief moment in time makes it far more important that we enjoy it. It seriously does not matter one bit what we believed after we are gone. Being "right" about the universe won't matter. We will still be gone forever. If someone can find peace and happiness believing in a god or something, that's fine with me. I mean...you know how hard it is to find contentment in our lives? We are flawed organisms. If there were a god, I would have a long list of things to complain about if I met him/her (what's up with testicles on the outside of the body?...what's up with STDs?....aging? ...difficult childbirth?....sleeping?) I say let people believe what they want. It's the Libertarian in me.
You can justify believing whatever you like by the idea of "it makes me feel good"
If you're saying you don't care what's true, then ok.
But it's knowledge that has led to better qualities of life, higher morality, better technology, not just believing whatever delusion makes you feel good.
Wait...are we talking about all of humanity or individuals believing what they want? Obviously the world has rapidly become a better place in almost every way for the past 200 years and continues to do so. So I don't see the problem. Our quality of life has never been better. Religion does not govern our society in the western world. I firmly believe it will become less and less of a problem in places like the middle east over time as well. I think you can justify believing anything you want because it makes you feel good for the reasons I stated. We don't matter. We barely exist at all in celestial terms. The entire human race doesn't matter...at all. The universe will never remember we were here after we are gone. Nihilistic outlook I know...but it's the truth. Be happy first. We aren't here long enough for anything else. I don't know any happy people who do harm to others. |
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 22:44:06 GMT
I think feeling good is far more important that "knowing the truth". I've managed to come to terms with the fact that I only get to exist for a short time. I'm still very happy. But others will have a harder time with that. Once we are gone...that's it. I don't see how it's more important to "know the truth" than enjoying our brief period of existence. That doesn't make any sense to me. Being happy while we exist is more important by a thousand miles....it's not even close. That fact that we are only here for a brief moment in time makes it far more important that we enjoy it. It seriously does not matter one bit what we believed after we are gone. Being "right" about the universe won't matter. We will still be gone forever. If someone can find peace and happiness believing in a god or something, that's fine with me. I mean...you know how hard it is to find contentment in our lives? We are flawed organisms. If there were a god, I would have a long list of things to complain about if I met him/her (what's up with testicles on the outside of the body?...what's up with STDs?....aging? ...difficult childbirth?....sleeping?) I say let people believe what they want. It's the Libertarian in me. So basically you don't know anything at all about Libertarianism either. It doesn't just mean "whatever, maaannn." But: whatever, maaannn... Oh? Because that's what I said, right?  You'll need to do better than a Straw Man. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 11, 2017 22:48:33 GMT
You can justify believing whatever you like by the idea of "it makes me feel good"
If you're saying you don't care what's true, then ok.
But it's knowledge that has led to better qualities of life, higher morality, better technology, not just believing whatever delusion makes you feel good.
Wait...are we talking about all of humanity or individuals believing what they want? Obviously the world has rapidly become a better place in almost every way for the past 200 years and continues to do so. So I don't see the problem. Our quality of life has never been better. Religion does not govern our society in the western world. I firmly believe it will become less and less of a problem in places like the middle east over time as well. I think you can justify believing anything you want because it makes you feel good for the reasons I stated. We don't matter. We barely exist at all in celestial terms. The entire human race doesn't matter...at all. The universe will never remember we were here after we are gone. Nihilistic outlook I know...but it's the truth. Be happy first. We aren't here long enough for anything else. I don't know any happy people who do harm to others. We're just talking about the simple idea of learning, and the process of that.
"it makes me feel good" isn't a reason to believe something is actually true.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 22:52:53 GMT
Wait...are we talking about all of humanity or individuals believing what they want? Obviously the world has rapidly become a better place in almost every way for the past 200 years and continues to do so. So I don't see the problem. Our quality of life has never been better. Religion does not govern our society in the western world. I firmly believe it will become less and less of a problem in places like the middle east over time as well. I think you can justify believing anything you want because it makes you feel good for the reasons I stated. We don't matter. We barely exist at all in celestial terms. The entire human race doesn't matter...at all. The universe will never remember we were here after we are gone. Nihilistic outlook I know...but it's the truth. Be happy first. We aren't here long enough for anything else. I don't know any happy people who do harm to others. We're just talking about the simple idea of learning, and the process of that.
"it makes me feel good" isn't a reason to believe something is actually true.
I don't see why not. Doesn't matte to me. I'll continue to do my own learning no matter what other people do. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 11, 2017 22:56:29 GMT
We're just talking about the simple idea of learning, and the process of that.
"it makes me feel good" isn't a reason to believe something is actually true.
I don't see why not. Doesn't matte to me. I'll continue to do my own learning no matter what other people do. because "it makes me happy" doesn't mean something is true
The question is do you care about truth or not? Because if you don't, then anything goes.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 11, 2017 23:03:32 GMT
So basically you don't know anything at all about Libertarianism either. It doesn't just mean "whatever, maaannn." But: whatever, maaannn... Oh? Because that's what I said, right? You'll need to do better than a Straw Man. You'll need to know more than nothing about Libertarianism. |
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 23:08:17 GMT
I don't see why not. Doesn't matte to me. I'll continue to do my own learning no matter what other people do. because "it makes me happy" doesn't mean something is true
The question is do you care about truth or not? Because if you don't, then anything goes.
I never said "it makes me happy makes it true". So we agree there. I do care about truth which is why I believe in things which appear to be more logical than religious beliefs. Other people believing in things that make them happy doesn't stop me from doing that. That's where I'm wondering what you are proposing. You and I are already free to believe what we want...so what's the issue? You appear to be desirous of changing what other people believe. Really the nihilistic view is the most logical at the end of the day. Nothing really matters at all so anything does go. If the entire human race died today it actually wouldn't matter. We are likely to be gone in a million years and that's nothing. So our "morals" are pretty fake when you think about it. Why would it matter if we hurt other people? So nihilism can be a problem too. Interesting to talk about really. |
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 23:09:19 GMT
Oh? Because that's what I said, right? You'll need to do better than a Straw Man. You'll need to know more than nothing about Libertarianism. Fascinating...you appear to have perfected the art of saying nothing while saying stuff. You actually add nothing at all to the conversation. Pretty amazing. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 11, 2017 23:10:52 GMT
You'll need to know more than nothing about Libertarianism. Fascinating...you appear to have perfected the art of saying nothing while saying stuff. You actually add nothing at all to the conversation. Pretty amazing. What "conversation"? Your aimless blathering and misuse of the word "Libertarianism" while Arch (of all people, lol) tried desperately to explain anything at all to you? Yeah, I really threw a pipe bomb into a room full of rocket scientists here. Innit? Or it innit? (Hint: it innit.) |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 11, 2017 23:11:33 GMT
because "it makes me happy" doesn't mean something is true
The question is do you care about truth or not? Because if you don't, then anything goes.
I never said "it makes me happy makes it true". So we agree there. I do care about truth which is why I believe in things which appear to be more logical than religious beliefs. Other people believing in things that make them happy doesn't stop me from doing that. That's where I'm wondering what you are proposing. You and I are already free to believe what we want...so what's the issue? You appear to be desirous of changing what other people believe. Really the nihilistic view is the most logical at the end of the day. Nothing really matters at all so anything does go. If the entire human race died today it actually wouldn't matter. We are likely to be gone in a million years and that's nothing. So our "morals" are pretty fake when you think about it. Why would it matter if we hurt other people? So nihilism can be a problem too. Interesting to talk about really. I'm not a nihilist. I'm an atheist. Most of us are humanist, which means we're moral because we respect the lives of others, the environment, animals, etc.
I'm desirous of people being more educated, yes. Learning all sorts of things, not believing in myths, etc.
I'm proposing education.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 11, 2017 23:12:47 GMT
Fascinating...you appear to have perfected the art of saying nothing while saying stuff. You actually add nothing at all to the conversation. Pretty amazing. What "conversation"? Your aimless blathering and misuse of the word "Libertarianism" while Arch (of all people, lol) tried desperately to explain anything at all to you? Yeah, I really threw a pipe bomb into a room full of rocket scientists here. Innit? Or it innit? (Hint: it innit.) You did it again! Nice. You actually didn't say anything. Impressive. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Nov 11, 2017 23:18:44 GMT
What "conversation"? Your aimless blathering and misuse of the word "Libertarianism" while Arch (of all people, lol) tried desperately to explain anything at all to you? Yeah, I really threw a pipe bomb into a room full of rocket scientists here. Innit? Or it innit? (Hint: it innit.) Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it meaningless. It doesn't make it "Libertarianism," either.  |
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