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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 22:50:27 GMT
At what point in the evolutionary cycle did humans/human ancestors become 'divine' (i.e. in God's image)?
At what point did we develop an immortal soul that exists independently of our physical form?
At what point 'free will' develop, and do any other types of animals also have free will
Were humans God's final intended design, and if so, why did he implement the process of evolution in order to achieve the design that he had intended from the beginning?
Do you believe that humans (in their current physical form) are likely to be God's final design, or will there be more evolution. If there is likely to be further evolution, does that give you pause to consider whether humans are really as special as your religion professes them to be?
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Post by Deadblowhammer on Nov 12, 2017 23:05:24 GMT
Are you the mic from the old IMDb boards?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 23:05:42 GMT
Are you the mic from the old IMDb boards? Yes |
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Post by Isapop on Nov 12, 2017 23:13:47 GMT
There are such Christians who have settled on the Neolithic period as the time when all that stuff happened.
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Post by Deadblowhammer on Nov 12, 2017 23:15:12 GMT
Okay I thought so. It's nice to see you here. I was always entertained reading your thread.s
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 23:39:05 GMT
Okay I thought so. It's nice to see you here. I was always entertained reading your thread.s Thank you. I don't recognise the username, but I'm glad you enjoyed my threads. |
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Post by Deadblowhammer on Nov 12, 2017 23:42:33 GMT
I didn't use this name then. I don't remember what I used. We never interacted. I was mostly a lurker.
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Post by gadreel on Nov 13, 2017 0:04:04 GMT
Evolution happened just as science says, God™ merely set the process in action.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 0:12:25 GMT
Evolution happened just as science says, God™ merely set the process in action. But why did he bother with evolution, rather than just creating his 'masterpiece' from the outset? And if God did have humans as the end goal, does that not rather undermine the theory of evolution anyway, which is postulated to be a random and blind process, rather than a bunch of 'rough drafts' from an omnipotent entity who always had a final design firmly in mind? Or did God not intend humans to be the final design at all? And from the very first life-forms, did he always intend for some of them to eventually become humans, and did any of our ancestors have all of these wonderful things that make humans special, such as the immortal soul, divine nature and 'free will'? |
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Post by gadreel on Nov 13, 2017 0:45:49 GMT
Evolution happened just as science says, God™ merely set the process in action. But why did he bother with evolution, rather than just creating his 'masterpiece' from the outset? And if God did have humans as the end goal, does that not rather undermine the theory of evolution anyway, which is postulated to be a random and blind process, rather than a bunch of 'rough drafts' from an omnipotent entity who always had a final design firmly in mind? Or did God not intend humans to be the final design at all? And from the very first life-forms, did he always intend for some of them to eventually become humans, and did any of our ancestors have all of these wonderful things that make humans special, such as the immortal soul, divine nature and 'free will'? Who knows why the creator bothered with evolution, could be it just wanted to start an evolution and see what happened. The fact is that there is evolution and so if you believe in a creator God you have to reconcile evolution with that god. You could go the path of denial of the facts (creation) or something else. We also have to be careful about saying that earth is the only place, it's possible we find a planet out there where creation is obvious and that they seeded earth with life. I don't think those things you mention are exclusive to humans. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 13, 2017 13:17:50 GMT
Who knows why the creator bothered with evolution, could be it just wanted to start an evolution and see what happened. Being outside of time and space and omniscient, presumably any deity would know what would have happened. |
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Post by gadreel on Nov 13, 2017 17:26:06 GMT
Who knows why the creator bothered with evolution, could be it just wanted to start an evolution and see what happened. Being outside of time and space and omniscient, presumably any deity would know what would have happened. The know what happened now. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 18:43:43 GMT
How is anyone supposed to know the answers to these questions?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 18:47:24 GMT
How is anyone supposed to know the answers to these questions? I'd like to know if anyone has thought of any answers to these questions, or whether Christians deliberately avoid thinking about such questions. And one would think that the Bible would have some hints with regards to these questions, rather than giving the indication that humans did not evolve, but were rather created from scratch in their present form. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 19:02:27 GMT
How is anyone supposed to know the answers to these questions? I'd like to know if anyone has thought of any answers to these questions, or whether Christians deliberately avoid thinking about such questions. And one would think that the Bible would have some hints with regards to these questions, rather than giving the indication that humans did not evolve, but were rather created from scratch in their present form. They're interesting questions, but they aren't exactly KNOWABLE. Here are some guesses though: 1. Once God started interacting with them on a personal level. So let's say Adam was a historical figure (even if the creation account was loaded with legendary/mythological stuff). Once God started working with Adam, then we can say that humans were "far enough along" in the evolutionary process to be truly considered "in God's image." 2. No idea. A lot of Christians believe that immortality is conditional. Those that don't enter into God's kingdom are ultimately removed from existence. So your soul isn't inherently immortal. 3. You have free will when you are consciously able to weigh the consequences of your decisions and act accordingly. Could be different from person to person. When you should start to be held accountable for your free decisions is another question. 4. Humans are designed in God's image. Whether we continue to adapt or evolve doesn't really change that. As to why God chose the method of evolution, it's simply because he could. I'd say most Christians typically don't have a problem with accepting that God can and does work through natural processes to bring about what he wants. Again, these are all interesting questions, but knowing their SPECIFIC answers isn't really relevant. That's probably why the Bible is silent on them. We know as much as we need to know. According to Christian doctrine (and Jesus, primarily), God is more interested in having a personal relationship with you than he is interested in you being able to ace some arbitrary theology quiz. |
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 13, 2017 19:43:17 GMT
Evolution happened just as science says, God™ merely set the process in action. I like your new style of using God TM.  |
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Post by gadreel on Nov 13, 2017 19:56:11 GMT
Evolution happened just as science says, God™ merely set the process in action. I like your new style of using God TM. Yeah I started using it a while back in a few facebook posts, and it is kind of funny, but also it speaks a little to me about the personal nature of divine belief, it is almost guaranteed that my perception and understanding of God™ differs from anothers. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 20:24:21 GMT
I'd like to know if anyone has thought of any answers to these questions, or whether Christians deliberately avoid thinking about such questions. And one would think that the Bible would have some hints with regards to these questions, rather than giving the indication that humans did not evolve, but were rather created from scratch in their present form. They're interesting questions, but they aren't exactly KNOWABLE. Here are some guesses though: 1. Once God started interacting with them on a personal level. So let's say Adam was a historical figure (even if the creation account was loaded with legendary/mythological stuff). Once God started working with Adam, then we can say that humans were "far enough along" in the evolutionary process to be truly considered "in God's image." 2. No idea. A lot of Christians believe that immortality is conditional. Those that don't enter into God's kingdom are ultimately removed from existence. So your soul isn't inherently immortal. 3. You have free will when you are consciously able to weigh the consequences of your decisions and act accordingly. Could be different from person to person. When you should start to be held accountable for your free decisions is another question. 4. Humans are designed in God's image. Whether we continue to adapt or evolve doesn't really change that. As to why God chose the method of evolution, it's simply because he could. I'd say most Christians typically don't have a problem with accepting that God can and does work through natural processes to bring about what he wants. Again, these are all interesting questions, but knowing their SPECIFIC answers isn't really relevant. That's probably why the Bible is silent on them. We know as much as we need to know. According to Christian doctrine (and Jesus, primarily), God is more interested in having a personal relationship with you than he is interested in you being able to ace some arbitrary theology quiz. Thanks for your answers. But I would have thought that if you believed in evolution, that would preclude any belief that Adam was a historical figure, given that in that story, God created Adam from scratch, and he wasn't evolved from lower life forms. There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that humans evolved from lower life forms and in one generation there were 'dumb monkeys' who were the precursors of humans, then followed the next generation of 'divine' humans, made in the image of God. Actually, I haven't read the Bible, but I would assume that there isn't. In any case, if evolution is true, it seems odd that an omnipotent God would use such a roundabout and bloody way of achieving a goal that he had in mind at the outset, with all of those wasteful failed prototypes (which he must have, if he were truly omniscient and transcends time and space). God hasn't thought things through, if immortality ls meant to be an ultimate prize. For those who just blink out of existence (one would assume that this includes all or most non-human animals), they don't 'miss out' on heaven, because a non-existent entity cannot feel deprivation. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 20:28:03 GMT
They're interesting questions, but they aren't exactly KNOWABLE. Here are some guesses though: 1. Once God started interacting with them on a personal level. So let's say Adam was a historical figure (even if the creation account was loaded with legendary/mythological stuff). Once God started working with Adam, then we can say that humans were "far enough along" in the evolutionary process to be truly considered "in God's image." 2. No idea. A lot of Christians believe that immortality is conditional. Those that don't enter into God's kingdom are ultimately removed from existence. So your soul isn't inherently immortal. 3. You have free will when you are consciously able to weigh the consequences of your decisions and act accordingly. Could be different from person to person. When you should start to be held accountable for your free decisions is another question. 4. Humans are designed in God's image. Whether we continue to adapt or evolve doesn't really change that. As to why God chose the method of evolution, it's simply because he could. I'd say most Christians typically don't have a problem with accepting that God can and does work through natural processes to bring about what he wants. Again, these are all interesting questions, but knowing their SPECIFIC answers isn't really relevant. That's probably why the Bible is silent on them. We know as much as we need to know. According to Christian doctrine (and Jesus, primarily), God is more interested in having a personal relationship with you than he is interested in you being able to ace some arbitrary theology quiz. Thanks for your answers. But I would have thought that if you believed in evolution, that would preclude any belief that Adam was a historical figure, given that in that story, God created Adam from scratch, and he wasn't evolved from lower life forms. There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that humans evolved from lower life forms and in one generation there were 'dumb monkeys' who were the precursors of humans, then followed the next generation of 'divine' humans, made in the image of God. Actually, I haven't read the Bible, but I would assume that there isn't. God hasn't thought things through, if immortality ls meant to be an ultimate prize. For those who just blink out of existence (one would assume that this includes all or most non-human animals), they don't 'miss out' on heaven, because a non-existent entity cannot feel deprivation. I tend to think Genesis is filled with lots of mythology. But I also think that a lot of mythological stories are rooted in history. The people who wrote, edited, and complied the Old Testament obviously didn't know anything about evolution, so none of that stuff was in there. But I think there are "truths" in those texts that go deeper than how neatly they line up with actual history. It's one of those things where the "moral" of the story is true, even if it's not 100% literal history. But Adam could also be totally made up too. Either way, the same moral core of the story is what ultimately matters (IMO). |
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Post by tickingmask on Nov 13, 2017 21:31:27 GMT
And one would think that the Bible would have some hints with regards to these questions, rather than giving the indication that humans did not evolve, but were rather created from scratch in their present form. Why would one think that? The concept of evolution wasn't in anybody's wildest imaginations when the Bible was written. Were you expecting some miracle that enables it to transform into a retrospective biology manual? Perhaps if you read it often enough, some more divine miracles will happen and it will be able to instruct you how to travel in space, build a teleportation machine and lose weight without having to diet or exercise. |
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