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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 20, 2017 1:43:25 GMT
No kidding. Diesel-electric used to be the only kind they had, but they did all right with arranged refueling points at sea. In my opinion, the new air-independent propulsion systems make the nuclear submarine obsolete. I always liked diesel-electric subs better anyway. They're cheaper and quieter. Feasible for the crew is about three weeks to a month, even with a nuclear boat. Try over 3 and a half months, the official longest unsupported submerged patrol by a submarine, performed by the nuclear-powered HMS Warspite, and that one's an oldie, only Britain's third nuclear-powered sub to enter service. Despite one collision with a Russian warship, and reactor faults that put it out of commission in 1991, it holds the official submerged record. Which means they're capable of operating a lot longer.... The US sure as hell isn't going to tell how long an Ohio stays out. 👍 Okay, but even if the ARA San Juan was nuclear, it could not stay at sea indefinitely. Subs now can make their own air, but I don't think they can make their own food. I am reminded of a novel I read in the 80's. I think it was called Barracuda but I can't find it now. It was good but it made some mistakes. For example, the plane that spots USS Barracuda after it was supposedly lost was an F-4 Phantom II with no one on it except for the pilot. Everyone knows the F-4 always took a 2-man crew. Also, the US Navy has never named one of its ballistic missile submarines after a fish. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 1:50:43 GMT
But as a diesel/electric submarine it cannot stay submerged as long as a nuclear-powered vessel, and will have to snorkel to recharge, often switching over to the diesels which are much noisier. A nuclear powered vessel can stay under as long as feasible for the crew. No kidding. Diesel-electric used to be the only kind they had, but they did all right with arranged refueling points at sea. In my opinion, the new air-independent propulsion systems make the nuclear submarine obsolete. They might, when they're capable of anything like the speed. They might, when they're capable of anything like the speed. Look at the German Type 214, a good diesel electric / AIP submarine. Submerged speed, 20 knots on batteries. But on AIP? 2-6 knots. A typical nuke boat can do 30 or more. AIP is fine if you want to essentially stay in the same general location, creeping around to intercept incoming targets. Defending your home waters, say. But if you are going to use it to transit to a distant area and then patrol that area, it's a poor choice. You do one of two things to get to your target area, and they're both very risky. One, do it the old fashioned way, the way WWII diesel electrics did it. Surfaced or at snorkel depth, and thus horribly vulnerable to everyone with a good radar... Two, creep to where you're going under the surface, but taking forever to get there - on AIP a Type 24 would take around a month to cross the Atlantic, a trip a nuke boat could do in four days. Neither is a practical proposition. So they are great defensive weapons. And rather limited offensive ones. |
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Post by progressiveelement on Nov 20, 2017 2:01:26 GMT
Try over 3 and a half months, the official longest unsupported submerged patrol by a submarine, performed by the nuclear-powered HMS Warspite, and that one's an oldie, only Britain's third nuclear-powered sub to enter service. Despite one collision with a Russian warship, and reactor faults that put it out of commission in 1991, it holds the official submerged record. Which means they're capable of operating a lot longer.... The US sure as hell isn't going to tell how long an Ohio stays out. 👍 Okay, but even if the ARA San Juan was nuclear, it could not stay at sea indefinitely. Subs now can make their own air, but I don't think they can make their own food. I am reminded of a novel I read in the 80's. I think it was called Barracuda but I can't find it now. It was good but it made some mistakes. For example, the plane that spots USS Barracuda after it was supposedly lost was an F-4 Phantom II with no one on it except for the pilot. Everyone knows the F-4 always took a 2-man crew. Also, the US Navy has never named one of its ballistic missile submarines after a fish. I get real annoyed at simple errors. 🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌 The novelization of Independence Day had so much made up horsecrap, for me it was distracting. They could not get specs of a Sega Saturn right. Clive Cussler will impress with detailed research, but then will come out with some right crap. Dale Brown I used to read, but man, he makes errors that raise questions about his Air Force background. Even my fave writer made some total bullshit in some of his books. Probably the worst was a book set in 1981, that was set a year after the Falklands War (1982), and referenced Transformers (debut 1984). 😀 |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 20, 2017 2:08:18 GMT
No kidding. Diesel-electric used to be the only kind they had, but they did all right with arranged refueling points at sea. In my opinion, the new air-independent propulsion systems make the nuclear submarine obsolete. They might, when they're capable of anything like the speed. They might, when they're capable of anything like the speed. Look at the German Type 214, a good diesel electric / AIP submarine. Submerged speed, 20 knots on batteries. But on AIP? 2-6 knots. A typical nuke boat can do 30 or more. AIP is fine if you want to essentially stay in the same general location, creeping around to intercept incoming targets. Defending your home waters, say. But if you are going to use it to transit to a distant area and then patrol that area, it's a poor choice. You do one of two things to get to your target area, and they're both very risky. One, do it the old fashioned way, the way WWII diesel electrics did it. Surfaced or at snorkel depth, and thus horribly vulnerable to everyone with a good radar... Two, creep to where you're going under the surface, but taking forever to get there - on AIP a Type 24 would take around a month to cross the Atlantic, a trip a nuke boat could do in four days. Neither is a practical proposition. So they are great defensive weapons. And rather limited offensive ones. Well, if I had my own navy.......actually I'd have two navies. The first navy would be composed of conventional warships waving the flag with everyone in uniform and patriotic and all that. The second navy would be a secret navy, and it would be composed of submarines and surface ships (raiders) disguised as noncombatant vessels. These would also act as support ships for the submarines. They would be under the direction of the Bureau of Naval Intelligence and officially they wouldn't exist. They would also get a monetary bonus for enemy tonnage sunk in war, kind of like pirates. Kind of sneaky, don't you think? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 2:17:21 GMT
Well, if I had my own navy.......actually I'd have two navies. The first navy would be composed of conventional warships waving the flag with everyone in uniform and patriotic and all that. The second navy would be a secret navy, and it would be composed of submarines and surface ships (raiders) disguised as noncombatant vessels. These would also act as support ships for the submarines. They would be under the direction of the Bureau of Naval Intelligence and officially they wouldn't exist. They would also get a monetary bonus for enemy tonnage sunk in war, kind of like pirates. Kind of sneaky, don't you think? So sneaky that you could almost overlook the fact that such tactics have been tried - and have failed - several times before. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 20, 2017 2:25:36 GMT
Well, if I had my own navy.......actually I'd have two navies. The first navy would be composed of conventional warships waving the flag with everyone in uniform and patriotic and all that. The second navy would be a secret navy, and it would be composed of submarines and surface ships (raiders) disguised as noncombatant vessels. These would also act as support ships for the submarines. They would be under the direction of the Bureau of Naval Intelligence and officially they wouldn't exist. They would also get a monetary bonus for enemy tonnage sunk in war, kind of like pirates. Kind of sneaky, don't you think? So sneaky that you could almost overlook the fact that such tactics have been tried - and have failed - several times before. Oh, I wouldn't say that. The war may have been lost for other reasons, but the tactics were successful, and cost-effective too.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 2:47:16 GMT
So sneaky that you could almost overlook the fact that such tactics have been tried - and have failed - several times before. Oh, I wouldn't say that. The war may have been lost for other reasons, but the tactics were successful, and cost-effective too. Do some reading on the subject some time. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 20, 2017 2:53:51 GMT
Oh, I wouldn't say that. The war may have been lost for other reasons, but the tactics were successful, and cost-effective too. Do some reading on the subject some time. Sure. I've been reading on the subject for 40+ years, but no substitute for maximum input. |
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Post by progressiveelement on Nov 20, 2017 2:55:37 GMT
They might, when they're capable of anything like the speed. They might, when they're capable of anything like the speed. Look at the German Type 214, a good diesel electric / AIP submarine. Submerged speed, 20 knots on batteries. But on AIP? 2-6 knots. A typical nuke boat can do 30 or more. AIP is fine if you want to essentially stay in the same general location, creeping around to intercept incoming targets. Defending your home waters, say. But if you are going to use it to transit to a distant area and then patrol that area, it's a poor choice. You do one of two things to get to your target area, and they're both very risky. One, do it the old fashioned way, the way WWII diesel electrics did it. Surfaced or at snorkel depth, and thus horribly vulnerable to everyone with a good radar... Two, creep to where you're going under the surface, but taking forever to get there - on AIP a Type 24 would take around a month to cross the Atlantic, a trip a nuke boat could do in four days. Neither is a practical proposition. So they are great defensive weapons. And rather limited offensive ones. Well, if I had my own navy.......actually I'd have two navies. The first navy would be composed of conventional warships waving the flag with everyone in uniform and patriotic and all that. The second navy would be a secret navy, and it would be composed of submarines and surface ships (raiders) disguised as noncombatant vessels. These would also act as support ships for the submarines. They would be under the direction of the Bureau of Naval Intelligence and officially they wouldn't exist. They would also get a monetary bonus for enemy tonnage sunk in war, kind of like pirates. Kind of sneaky, don't you think? Megaforce 2: Sea Marauders! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 2:56:37 GMT
Do some reading on the subject some time. Sure. I've been reading on the subject for 40+ years, but no substitute for maximum input. Try going to the actual history books, though. Not the youtube video comments. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 20, 2017 2:58:36 GMT
Sure. I've been reading on the subject for 40+ years, but no substitute for maximum input. Try going to the actual history books, though. Not the youtube video comments. I do, but thanks for the friendly advice. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 3:03:49 GMT
Try going to the actual history books, though. Not the youtube video comments. I do Uh huh. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 21, 2017 17:55:32 GMT
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Post by progressiveelement on Nov 21, 2017 19:16:03 GMT
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Post by progressiveelement on Nov 23, 2017 19:19:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2017 19:29:09 GMT
Huh, those pope prayers are apparently really powerful stuff. High success rate there.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 23, 2017 20:34:22 GMT
Thanks, Mr. Element. That seems likely. If the light blue on the map is the Continental Shelf then she went down in deep water, and survivors would be very unlikely. |
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