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Post by taylorfirst1 on Nov 29, 2017 19:49:35 GMT
Overall, I liked the crossover a lot. The story was good and most of the action was good.
Question: Who was the waitress that Barry had a conversation with at the wedding? Have we seen her on the show before or will she be coming back again later on? There must have been a reason for that whole thing. I've seen every episode of everyone of these shows but I don't remember her off the top of my head.
There was of course a lot of bad writing in the crossover as there is a lot of bad writing in all of these shows. I can ignore all of it except for 1 thing. The Flash just let the Reverse Flash go? I understand not killing him, but he just let him go???
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Post by dazz on Nov 29, 2017 20:08:08 GMT
I was hoping that whilst Barry had RF pinned to the wall and RF was taunting Barry with his unwillingness to kill him that Oliver would kill RF as a throwaway gag because at this point RF is like impervious to permanent death so make him dying be funny, even let him have a quip like "well *spits blood* I didn't see that coming *laughs* guess i'll have to catch you next time...Flash!" then he dies.
You know his whole thing can be that no matter what he always comes back, maybe build it to a Flash has to kill him story where Barry loses it and faces RF at a nexus where only then can he be killed properly and Barry actually does it.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 29, 2017 21:37:16 GMT
Given Barry and Iris' wedding, when Thawne showed up I kind of expected Barry to kill him by the end of it; since that's a story straight out of the comics - Barry is about to get married (to someone else, on account of Iris being dead [but secretly alive in the future]) and in order to stop RF, Barry snaps his neck; then willingly goes on trial and is exonerated, to prove that it was justified. I believe he then travels to the future to be with Iris, before being plucked away by the Anti-Monitor, leading to his death during Crisis on Infinite Earths. I didn't expect all of that to happen, but at least maybe Barry being put into a position where there was no choice but to kill Thawne. Then again, that might have been too much shades of MoS....
I'm a little disappointed that they didn't do any kind of follow-up with the girl at the wedding, but my hunch is that she was Barry and Iris' daughter from the future, who is probably also a speedster and found herself in the past and came to see the wedding.
I have some mixed feelings about the whole thing. I did feel like they had a better utilization of the casts than they did last year, it made sense that not all of them would be going to the wedding; and the staggered use of everyone felt more natural. They treated it as one large scale production broken into four acts, with everyone scattered throughout; it wasn't "here's the Supergirl installment," and "now we're on The Flash...", etc., it all fed together fairly seamlessly. One take away from all of this, is that some variation of this is what Flashpoint should have been. Not this exactly, but definitely the underlying structure/format; and also the exploration of these characters from a different perspective, if their lives had played out differently.
There was cheesy dialogue I didn't care for, much of seeming a bit melodramatic; particularly in the first act. The one that stood out was very early into the first episode, where some random character makes a quip about fixing their "dark world" or something to that effect. I mean, who talks like that?. Supergirl beating up a Dominator, and saying, "they're so last year," was a little too on the nose. Likewise, some of the developments were a little too obvious, like Alex and Sara hooking up. It didn’t make sense for Ollie-X and Kara-X to wear masks; I don’t know about anyone else, but I could see the reveal coming a mile away.
So if no sane person would want to go to Earth X, because it's so awful, and as such was not (inexplicably) given a designation; how does Harry know so much about it? And why wouldn’t you name it, in order to know which Earth to avoid? And how does it lack of designation mean that when calculating how many Earths there were, it wasn’t counted? For that matter, how are the Earth designations decided in the Arrowverse, that allows Earth 1 be Earth 1; and accepted as such by other Earths?
I was surprised about Stein; I knew he was leaving Legends, but I didn't expect them to kill him off, much less during the crossover event; and even after it happened, I didn't think it would be for keeps. I figured they would hit the reset button, as they've been known to do.
Interesting take on "Leo" Snart. Was never a fan of his portrayal of Captain Cold, but there did seem to be something different with this iteration. I had to laugh at Barry’s impression of Snart, which sounded spot on. I had read that Wentworth had made a comment about being done with the Arrowverse shows, but Snart staying behind on Earth 1 seems to suggest otherwise... As ever, Mick is in serious need of character development.
As noted in another thread, they've really made a mess of things with Eobard Thawne's timeline; to say nothing of consistent behavior. Last season's arc on Legends, along with Flashpoint was bad enough, now this just makes it worse. And for him being Thawne-Wells, which places him at the very end of Season 1, it seems incongruent with the character who bequeathed Barry Star Labs and basically everything else he owned; and confessed to Nora West's murder. I'm curious if the other actor who plays Eobard was supposed to be in the episode, and was unavailable; or if it was a conscious choice to have it be Tom, to give Wells an evil doppelganger. I also couldn't help wonder what Barry's double would be like on that world, but I suppose you can't have such a radically different world and still have all the same players.
Interesting take on Quentin. Not sure why this version, who still presumably grew-up in the US, had a vaguely German accent, but still sufficiently creepy and well played. Ditto General Schott. Having first seen him on Smash, I had almost forgotten how well he does the tough guy/dramatic part.
Ultimately I became less impressed with the major thrust of the story, when I realized it had nothing to do with these characters invading Earth 1, and was more this myopic story of going after Supergirl specifically. I was thinking about the scope of last year's story, and how it was a direct invasion of Earth; that even though the Dominators were after Barry specifically for him creating Flashpoint, the scale was much more significant than that. It was, "hand over Barry Allen, or the entire planet becomes fair game;" and the response was commensurate to that threat. Government forces were employed, there was a major sense of urgency; and in the end the heroes are recognized and honored for their part in stopping that threat, and not just for saving themselves, or protecting others from the crossfire of a personal threat. Right from the start it seemed odd that these forces were bothering to interrupt a wedding, which in hindsight becomes more understandable that they were after someone there, but seeing how the one person they were looking for wasn't even indigenous to that Earth, taken on the whole it seems a little contrived. They might have had better luck going after her on her home turf, where by Barry's estimation there isn't a small army of heroes to come to her aid - there's no Flash or Green Arrow, et al on Kara's Earth. There's a Superman, Mon-El and Martian Manhunter, but that's about it. Batman may be there somewhere, ambiguously, but we haven't seen her team up with nearly as many people on her own Earth as she does when she comes to Earth 1. (Interesting side-note, it seems like a shame they glossed over Harry saying how there are 52 Karas, meaning there would invariably then be a version of Kara, and ostensibly Superman, on Earth 1....) It seemed like they ignored the affects of the red solar radiation on General Kara, which I can't help but wonder how that wouldn't have been an effective treatment for her, if she was supersaturated with yellow sun radiation. They didn't really explain why replacing her heart would change that, and it doesn't really make sense. It might if it were just a case of the supercharged cells damaged her heart, but that didn't seem to be the case, since she was building towards a powerful detonation; and by all accounts it's all of the cells in a Kryptonian body that absorbs and charges up with yellow sun radiation, to give them their powers. It kind of seems like they just wanted to throw in that line about how Kara wasn't figuratively using her heart, and then screw the rest of it. By some account though, with Kara's own exposure to red sun radiation in this event, the red sun supplants yellow sun radiation, to make Kara - and by extension other Kryptonians - weaker, or de-powered; which would seem like exactly what Overgirl needed (side note, I caught Curtis referring to her as Overgirl, but I don't remember that name coming up beforehand, for that to have been established as her name. I believe that was her name in the comics, but was Curtis just Cisco'ing the villain and giving her a codename on the fly?)
Meanwhile, it took me a while to realize that they were referring to alt-Ollie as the Fuhrer; which seems like a significant gloss over, if some alternative version of Oliver Queen manages to rise to presumably the position of, what, ultimate power over the entirety of Earth X? Yet he's also, improbably, a skilled, masked archer.... married to a Kryptonian.... There's a lot to unpack that, there might have been a much richer story to explore.
And then that ending….. God damn it….. First of all, it seemed like wasted use of Diggle, shoe-horning him into the crossover; even if he’s on the injured list. For some reason it just felt wrong that Diggle didn’t get to punch a Nazi. I absolutely hate the idea of Oliver and Felicity getting married, but to then a) do it during the crossover, which definitively requires people to have seen the whole thing to know a critical plot development for Arrow, b) likewise thrown in at the last second, and c) it kind of seems like a dick move to horn in on Barry and Iris getting married, after everything they just went through to get there.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Nov 30, 2017 17:54:21 GMT
Overall, I liked the crossover a lot. The story was good and most of the action was good. Question: Who was the waitress that Barry had a conversation with at the wedding? Have we seen her on the show before or will she be coming back again later on? There must have been a reason for that whole thing. I've seen every episode of everyone of these shows but I don't remember her off the top of my head. There was of course a lot of bad writing in the crossover as there is a lot of bad writing in all of these shows. I can ignore all of it except for 1 thing. The Flash just let the Reverse Flash go? I understand not killing him, but he just let him go??? The waitress is most likely Dawn Allen, the daughter of Barry and Iris who time-traveled from the future to see her parents' wedding. She's a speedster and she and her twin brother, Don, are known as the Tornado Twins.
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Post by johnblutarsky on Dec 1, 2017 18:05:07 GMT
The waitress is most likely Dawn Allen, the daughter of Barry and Iris who time-traveled from the future to see her parents' wedding. She's a speedster and she and her twin brother, Don, are known as the Tornado Twins. I assumed a time traveling daughter (because of the conversation) too. However, why didn’t she know (or say anything) about the Planet-X stuff that was about to happen?
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Dec 1, 2017 18:13:58 GMT
The waitress is most likely Dawn Allen, the daughter of Barry and Iris who time-traveled from the future to see her parents' wedding. She's a speedster and she and her twin brother, Don, are known as the Tornado Twins. I assumed a time traveling daughter (because of the conversation) too. However, why didn’t she know (or say anything) about the Planet-X stuff that was about to happen? Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff. Basically, any show that deals with time travel can never be consistent within its own time-traveling mythos. We could find out later that she was being tracked by Thawne and when she traveled to that point in time it gave him the idea of forming an alliance with the Nazis of Earth-X and then wiped her memories. Or, she did know but future Barry had warned her not to warn him because it might create even more problems. With time-travel there are infinite possibilities.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 1, 2017 18:15:37 GMT
I assumed a time traveling daughter (because of the conversation) too. However, why didn’t she know (or say anything) about the Planet-X stuff that was about to happen? Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff. Basically, any show that deals with time travel can never be consistent within its own time-traveling mythos. We could find out later that she was being tracked by Thawne and when she traveled to that point in time it gave him the idea of forming an alliance with the Nazis of Earth-X and then wiped her memories. Or, she did know but future Barry had warned her not to warn him because it might create even more problems. With time-travel there are infinite possibilities. Yup. This is why I generally dislike time travel stories.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 2, 2017 1:43:01 GMT
This is why I generally dislike time travel stories. There are some great ones out there though; ones that actually put some thought into the story, like Quantum Leap, Doctor Who, and the best time travel story, Back to the Future.
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Post by dazz on Dec 2, 2017 2:03:00 GMT
The waitress is most likely Dawn Allen, the daughter of Barry and Iris who time-traveled from the future to see her parents' wedding. She's a speedster and she and her twin brother, Don, are known as the Tornado Twins. I assumed a time traveling daughter (because of the conversation) too. However, why didn’t she know (or say anything) about the Planet-X stuff that was about to happen? Common sense...I mean that in all honesty, she's from the future so she knows about those events, she knows that no major impact is had from it, sure Stein died but he's ancient and LOT will probably bring him back in some way later on, so why warn Barry and potentially risk her very existence? She would after all know about her dads own misadventures in messing with history.
Also what would the warning really do? it would just keep them from being taken by surprise but that initial attack didn't cause any problems, and how could she DL them on all that's about to happen in just a few minutes?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 2, 2017 3:09:27 GMT
On the other hand, maybe the fact she didn't try to influence history or screw something up, is an indication she can't possibly be related to Barry Allen...
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Post by dazz on Dec 2, 2017 5:22:44 GMT
On the other hand, maybe the fact she didn't try to influence history or screw something up, is an indication she can't possibly be related to Barry Allen... He's learning, he hasn't time travelled in like a year so surely he gets some credit for that right?
I mean like 9/10 times he time travelled worked out, only Flashpoint fucked up really, the other times he stopped a Tsunami, didn't save his mom, stopped Savage, learned the secret to upping his speed & turned the Piper good, got a remnant to stop Zoom, learned about Iris & actually stopped Savitar.
I mean even Flashpoint wasn't a fuck up, the fuck up came by trying to reset things, Flashpoint seemed to work out fine for everyone but Wally, which even then only happens because Barry meddles in the natural progression of the Flashpoint peoples lives.
Sometimes I think were too hard on Barry...then sometimes I think my god he's a buffoon.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 2, 2017 23:35:40 GMT
This is why I generally dislike time travel stories. There are some great ones out there though; ones that actually put some thought into the story, like Quantum Leap, Doctor Who, and the best time travel story, Back to the Future. I agree there are some good ones and I like the ones you listed. But generally they paint themselves into a corner and end up breaking their own rules.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 3, 2017 0:21:33 GMT
I agree it's a problem when not properly thought out or kept consistent, but there's something about it I enjoy that I always hold out hope for a new attempt at a time travel narrative to be good; even if I end up grossly disappointed (*cough*"Legends"*cough*"Timeless"*cough*)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 0:03:39 GMT
Overall, I liked the crossover a lot. The story was good and most of the action was good. Question: Who was the waitress that Barry had a conversation with at the wedding? Have we seen her on the show before or will she be coming back again later on? There must have been a reason for that whole thing. I've seen every episode of everyone of these shows but I don't remember her off the top of my head. There was of course a lot of bad writing in the crossover as there is a lot of bad writing in all of these shows. I can ignore all of it except for 1 thing. The Flash just let the Reverse Flash go? I understand not killing him, but he just let him go??? I loved it! Enjoyed it more than the JL film. Much better than the dominators last season, they even made fun of it hahahahaha. Obvious flaws but really enjoyable. Felicity...oh Felicity but hahaha arrow sub-reddit turned into punisher.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 0:04:49 GMT
Overall, I liked the crossover a lot. The story was good and most of the action was good. Question: Who was the waitress that Barry had a conversation with at the wedding? Have we seen her on the show before or will she be coming back again later on? There must have been a reason for that whole thing. I've seen every episode of everyone of these shows but I don't remember her off the top of my head. There was of course a lot of bad writing in the crossover as there is a lot of bad writing in all of these shows. I can ignore all of it except for 1 thing. The Flash just let the Reverse Flash go? I understand not killing him, but he just let him go??? The waitress is most likely Dawn Allen, the daughter of Barry and Iris who time-traveled from the future to see her parents' wedding. She's a speedster and she and her twin brother, Don, are known as the Tornado Twins. I completely forgot about that but that would make sense.
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Post by sostie on Dec 10, 2017 0:12:15 GMT
Legends Of Tomorrow is the only show in the "Arrowverse" I really watch - it's more a guilty pleasure than essential viewing, so I decided to watch all 4 episodes so I could keep up to speed with Legends.
That I don't watch the other shows might be why I found most of it a dull procession people I didn't know moaning about relationships I didn't care about...in fact there were few characters from the other shows I actually took a shine to (except maybe Supergirl). The first part was borderline utter tedium.
Russell Tovey was a surprise appearance, Martin's death was quite sad, and I much prefer the new Snart. Overall it was all a bit meh, and actually put me off venturing into the other shows, which I was considering
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