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Post by goz on Dec 10, 2017 3:28:37 GMT
Australia does not support religious freedom, that much is clear. Every major church called for exemptions to be granted to business people, and they were ignored. If you ignore the requests of every major religious grouping....what kind of religious "freedom" are you offering? It's like if you claim you respect women's rights when every woman in your group tells you that you do not. Obviously that should tell you there is something wrong there. In Australia, like every other right thinking nation, 'religious freedom' means the freedom to worship your choice of religion and NOT force that view on other people who don't hold that view, especially if it is bigoted and TOTALLY if is against our anti-discrimination laws. Our government gave every parliamentarian the option to speak ( freedom of speech in action) and then each amendment proposed was voted on. NOT one amendment was passed and the end vote for same sex marriage being legalise was passed overwhelmingly, with only 4 dissenting votes and some abstentions. |
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Post by goz on Dec 10, 2017 6:55:52 GMT
In Australia, like every other right thinking nation, 'religious freedom' means the freedom to worship your choice of religion and NOT force that view on other people who don't hold that view, especially if it is bigoted and TOTALLY if is against our anti-discrimination laws. Our government gave every parliamentarian the option to speak ( freedom of speech in action) and then each amendment proposed was voted on. NOT one amendment was passed and the end vote for same sex marriage being legalise was passed overwhelmingly, with only 4 dissenting votes and some abstentions. Religious nutters just have their tail between their legs, because they think that they are being undermined and are losing their control. Well tough s<>t! Great! Well done my fellow citizens. It was cool that Tony Abbott's seat was one of the top pro same sex marriage voting areas. |
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Post by THawk on Dec 10, 2017 20:54:23 GMT
Australia does not support religious freedom, that much is clear. Every major church called for exemptions to be granted to business people, and they were ignored. If you ignore the requests of every major religious grouping....what kind of religious "freedom" are you offering? It's like if you claim you respect women's rights when every woman in your group tells you that you do not. Obviously that should tell you there is something wrong there. In Australia, like every other right thinking nation, 'religious freedom' means the freedom to worship your choice of religion and NOT force that view on other people who don't hold that view, especially if it is bigoted and TOTALLY if is against our anti-discrimination laws. Our government gave every parliamentarian the option to speak ( freedom of speech in action) and then each amendment proposed was voted on. NOT one amendment was passed and the end vote for same sex marriage being legalise was passed overwhelmingly, with only 4 dissenting votes and some abstentions. Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Even if you reject everything connected with spirituality, every person in this world lives for something or toward something, whether consciously or subconsciously. When you deny the spiritual, you live for the material and/or the physical. So in a sense it is forcing a religion - the religion of secularism and its beliefs onto people of other faiths. |
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 11, 2017 2:04:19 GMT
tpfkar Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Even if you reject everything connected with spirituality, every person in this world lives for something or toward something, whether consciously or subconsciously. When you deny the spiritual, you live for the material and/or the physical. So in a sense it is forcing a religion - the religion of secularism and its beliefs onto people of other faiths. That never gets old. 
Banana! |
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Post by goz on Dec 11, 2017 3:12:07 GMT
Great! Well done my fellow citizens. It was cool that Tony Abbott's seat was one of the top pro same sex marriage voting areas.Egg on his face. What poetic justice aye!
He wasn't even in parliament when the act was passed. Even Turnbull apparently didn't know he wasn't there. He would have been swept up in the celebratory spirit of it and it would have made him feel embarrassed and ashamed. Abbott is the biggest phony and hypocritical clown around and I hope he loses his seat in the next election. He is even a festering boil on his own party and gives them a bad rap.
I am in his electorate (blue ribbon liberal) and I have put him last on the ticket EVERY time. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 11, 2017 7:47:28 GMT
In Australia, like every other right thinking nation, 'religious freedom' means the freedom to worship your choice of religion and NOT force that view on other people who don't hold that view, especially if it is bigoted and TOTALLY if is against our anti-discrimination laws. Our government gave every parliamentarian the option to speak ( freedom of speech in action) and then each amendment proposed was voted on. NOT one amendment was passed and the end vote for same sex marriage being legalise was passed overwhelmingly, with only 4 dissenting votes and some abstentions. Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Ahh, the old "everything is a religion, even things that bear no resemblance to the defining characteristics of religion" argument. |
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Dec 11, 2017 8:48:19 GMT
Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Ahh, the old "everything is a religion, even things that bear no resemblance to the defining characteristics of religion" argument. Internet message boards are a religion. So is Bacardi and Coke. |
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Post by goz on Dec 11, 2017 9:14:39 GMT
In Australia, like every other right thinking nation, 'religious freedom' means the freedom to worship your choice of religion and NOT force that view on other people who don't hold that view, especially if it is bigoted and TOTALLY if is against our anti-discrimination laws. Our government gave every parliamentarian the option to speak ( freedom of speech in action) and then each amendment proposed was voted on. NOT one amendment was passed and the end vote for same sex marriage being legalise was passed overwhelmingly, with only 4 dissenting votes and some abstentions. Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Even if you reject everything connected with spirituality, every person in this world lives for something or toward something, whether consciously or subconsciously. When you deny the spiritual, you live for the material and/or the physical. So in a sense it is forcing a religion - the religion of secularism and its beliefs onto people of other faiths. That is patently nonsense. |
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Post by THawk on Dec 11, 2017 12:40:12 GMT
Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Ahh, the old "everything is a religion, even things that bear no resemblance to the defining characteristics of religion" argument. It does not correlate with traditional, ritualistic religion; but in this specific context, the context of its affects and hold on society, it very much can be listed as a religious grouping. |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Dec 11, 2017 12:49:12 GMT
Australia does not support religious freedom, that much is clear. Every major church called for exemptions to be granted to business people, and they were ignored. If you ignore the requests of every major religious grouping....what kind of religious "freedom" are you offering? It's like if you claim you respect women's rights when every woman in your group tells you that you do not. Obviously that should tell you there is something wrong there. Many freedoms impinge on other freedoms. It is a tenet of Australian antidiscrimination laws that one cannot discriminate on the grounds of sexual identity (the exact wording is on the web). It makes (for example) it illegal for a church to refuse to employ a gay person because they are gay. The community made a decision some time ago that religious freedom only goes so far as to not impinge on other freedoms. The churches were fighting a rear-guard action against the inevitability of marriage equality and the religious freedom argument was largely an attempt to sabotage enacting the law, or at least to hold it up for a few months so as to (hopefully) get community opinion on board. Fat chance. |
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Dec 11, 2017 13:08:07 GMT
Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Even if you reject everything connected with spirituality, every person in this world lives for something or toward something, whether consciously or subconsciously. When you deny the spiritual, you live for the material and/or the physical. So in a sense it is forcing a religion - the religion of secularism and its beliefs onto people of other faiths. Western secular states decided long ago to reject some strongly held precepts of religion. Making homosexuality legal is a prime example where its illegality was (and still is in some countries) instigated by religious authorities. Another example might be the mormon polygamy custom, which the US government told them to ban as a condition for Utah to join the Union. You can still have symbolic cannibalism ceremonies but you can no longer burn witches. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 11, 2017 13:54:16 GMT
Ahh, the old "everything is a religion, even things that bear no resemblance to the defining characteristics of religion" argument. It does not correlate with traditional, ritualistic religion; but in this specific context, the context of its affects and hold on society, it very much can be listed as a religious grouping. That's not what defines religion. By that logic, Oprah is a religion because of her "affects and hold on society." This is what happens when you ignore the basic definition of religion as: "systems of belief in and worship of superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods." If you remove that, then religion becomes no different than politics or philosophy or anything people get obsessive about. |
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Post by goz on Dec 12, 2017 2:38:26 GMT
Ahh, the old "everything is a religion, even things that bear no resemblance to the defining characteristics of religion" argument. It does not correlate with traditional, ritualistic religion; but in this specific context, the context of its affects and hold on society, it very much can be listed as a religious grouping. ABSOLUTELY not! Secularism is to society, as atheism is to religion. Neither secularism nor atheism are in any way, shape or form a religion, in fact they are the antithesis with BOTH being simply an absence of religion in all its forms, by definition. |
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Post by goz on Dec 12, 2017 5:15:41 GMT
ABSOLUTELY not! Secularism is to society, as atheism is to religion. Neither secularism nor atheism are in any way, shape or form a religion, in fact they are the antithesis with BOTH being simply an absence of religion in all its forms, by definition. With many of those that are fundamentalist religious, it's about grasping at straws and being facile or glib, by labeling something else as a religion, to justify or excuse their own phony beliefs and prejudices. It becomes all about religion, because that is what they hold onto, when in fact it doesn't even exist, only in a deluded mindset. I totally agree, and it is sad that some people can only think in those terms. They seem to lack the logical intellectualisation that religion has traditionally quashed. They seem to have missed the history of thought and knowledge that came through the Renaissance and the the Enlightenment, even the shift in thinking of the rise of Protestantism and then the progressive thought of psychologists scientists and philosophers over the last several hundred years, accelerating in the 20th and 21st centuries. |
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Post by THawk on Dec 12, 2017 13:38:24 GMT
With many of those that are fundamentalist religious, it's about grasping at straws and being facile or glib, by labeling something else as a religion, to justify or excuse their own phony beliefs and prejudices. It becomes all about religion, because that is what they hold onto, when in fact it doesn't even exist, only in a deluded mindset. I totally agree, and it is sad that some people can only think in those terms. They seem to lack the logical intellectualisation that religion has traditionally quashed. They seem to have missed the history of thought and knowledge that came through the Renaissance and the the Enlightenment, even the shift in thinking of the rise of Protestantism and then the progressive thought of psychologists scientists and philosophers over the last several hundred years, accelerating in the 20th and 21st centuries. Lol, to be honest, I am rather surprised you know anything about the Renaissance and the the Enlightenment, given that they produced the complete and utter opposite sort of individuals and ideas to yourself. I suppose it will be useless to say "no offense," so I will not bother, but you represent exactly the kind of bigoted, closed-minded enslavement to society and enslavement to materialism and delusions that two movements stood against, even if religion itself donned different hats in that historical narrative. If your challenge to religion is that it produces brainless slaves, well dear me, what do you think is the state of Western secularism? You are told what to worship and base your life around (money and sex) and you obey like a faithful soldier, with the greatest delusion of all being that you believe that to be your "liberation." Sad, indeed. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 13:39:28 GMT
Another topic, but in a way Western secularism is a religion in of itself, no matter how much atheists would like to deny it. Ahh, the old "everything is a religion, even things that bear no resemblance to the defining characteristics of religion" argument. If you widen the definition of something so far that it includes not doing it at all, then you've reached a truly ridiculous place. I don't like sports. Don't watch them, don't play them. According to innsmouth's argument that means that my sitting on the couch not watching sport is a sport that I play. Simply absurd wish fulfillment. |
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Post by Isapop on Dec 12, 2017 14:13:16 GMT
I don't like sports. Don't watch them, don't play them. According to innsmouth's argument that means that my sitting on the couch not watching sport is a sport that I play. Simply absurd wish fulfillment. Well, if you LIKE sitting on the couch not watching sport, that makes it a recreational pursuit, and thus, SPORTS! (That's certainly how I explain it to my doctor when he says "Get more exercise.")
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 12, 2017 17:12:22 GMT
tpfkar You are told what to worship and base your life around (money and sex) and you obey like a faithful soldier, with the greatest delusion of all being that you believe that to be your "liberation." Casually tossing aside your trite bastardizations of "worship" and "obey", at least money and sex actually exist.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! |
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Post by THawk on Dec 12, 2017 19:48:15 GMT
tpfkar You are told what to worship and base your life around (money and sex) and you obey like a faithful soldier, with the greatest delusion of all being that you believe that to be your "liberation." Casually tossing aside your trite bastardizations of "worship" and "obey", at least money and sex actually exist.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!It's exactly that. The new opium of the masses. And this is why there is one major dividing line between society. Those who live for things of this world, and those who live for things not of this world. Not "sports" or whatever other mischaracterizations of the argument people want to throw out. If you reject the latter, then you will devote your life to the former. It really doesn't matter if you call it religion, philosophy, or anything else. It is what makes all the difference - which part of the dividing line you are living for. And if the religious can impose their views on others, the -whatever-you-want-to-call-it people on the other side of the line can do exactly the same. |
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 12, 2017 20:06:07 GMT
tpfkar It's exactly that. The new opium of the masses. And this is why there is one major dividing line between society. Those who live for things of this world, and those who live for things not of this world. Not "sports" or whatever other mischaracterizations of the argument people want to throw out. If you reject the latter, then you will devote your life to the former. It really doesn't matter if you call it religion, philosophy, or anything else. It is what makes all the difference - which part of the dividing line you are living for. And if the religious can impose their views on others, the -whatever-you-want-to-call-it people on the other side of the line can do exactly the same. It's more silly silly time from apologists. The reasons why people live for things not of this world is because of indoctrination and fear. And anybody can attempt to impose their views on others, but "here's Facebook for you to waste gobs of time on if you want to" is nowhere near the same as "sorry, I'm not going to provide my advertised service because I don't believe gays, blacks, atheists, whatever should get married".
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. |
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