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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 7, 2017 18:48:57 GMT
I'm not just referring to the DCEU or New 52 versions of her, I'm referring to her character in general, even going back to the DCAU. The entire basis for her character is frankly riddled with misogyny. I know people complain about the skimpy outfits that she wears nowadays because of how "demeaning" they are, but when you really think about it, isn't the entire character demeaning to women?
For starters, she was pretty much created solely so she could serve as the Joker's trophy wife. Her very first appearance even gave her no real purpose other than moving a cake that had the Joker in it, which any random thug could've done. She's a character who's primarily defined by her relation to a male character, and how said character always treats her like crap. Even her friendship with Poison Ivy in the DCAU was more or less sexual in nature, which suggests that the writers primarily cared about using her to vent out their fetishes. It's extremely tasteless if you ask me.
Her backstory only makes it worse, since it establishes that she was once a really lousy psychiatrist who pretty much only got a PhD because she bribed her college professors with sex, and was easily manipulated into falling in love with the most blatant psychopath in all of Gotham. That was what the original Mad Love comic flat-out confirmed. A female character who's pretty much defined by her sexuality, and whom is portrayed as blatantly naive and easy to manipulate by a male villain? You can call me an "SJW" all you want, but that strikes me as the a perfect example of misogyny in a superhero story. Hell, if anything, the New 52 version of her is actually less demeaning, since she's actually moved on from the Joker in those comics, and is now more or less independent.
I also don't like the idea of giving the Joker a girlfriend, or making him a domestic abuser in general. For starters, the Joker never struck me as the kind of person who would have any interest in sex. If we are to accept that he does indeed enjoy sex, that would only add to the unfortunate implications of him stripping Barbara Gordon in TKJ (just for the record, Alan Moore denied the idea of the Joker raping Barbara). The Joker is a character who's primary ambition in life is to be in an endless war with Batman. How does manipulating a naive woman play into that?
Second, making the Joker a domestic abuser is frankly an extremely lazy way of showing us what a bastard he is. It's just too predictable for someone like the Joker. It makes him come off as less of an unpredictable force of nature, and more of a generic a-hole with a clown gimmick.
I know this is a long rant, but it just never ceases to baffle me how Harley Quinn is so popular, and how many people who identify as feminists seem to like the character. Frankly, Harley Quinn is the perfect definition of a female character who exists mainly to serve as an object.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 7, 2017 20:37:01 GMT
Sometimes I find it weird how society complains about showcasing women in movies in skimpy clothing yet have no problem watching men beat the crap out of each other.
My theory is that the modern audience is more desensitized to violence compared to sexualization of women.
Which is why most audiences don't care much that Harley is in an abusive relationship or the fact that she's a psychopath who beats up people on a whim but put her in booty shorts and you get loads of complaints.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 0:57:40 GMT
B&R still wasn't a dark CBM by the way. I know that's not exactly relevant to this particular thread, but I recall having this argument back when the regular IMDB message boards were still around, and I figured it was worth repeating.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 8, 2017 15:24:22 GMT
The Joker is a character who's primary ambition in life is to be in an endless war with Batman. How does manipulating a naive woman play into that? Joker likes to show any one can go insane with the right push.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 16:52:31 GMT
The Joker is a character who's primary ambition in life is to be in an endless war with Batman. How does manipulating a naive woman play into that? Joker likes to show any one can go insane with the right push. The fact that Harley was so easy to manipulate would suggest that she was already insane to begin with. Besides, why does the Joker keep her around? She's not even particularly useful. Why would he care about getting laid?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 8, 2017 17:43:33 GMT
Not at all. After all, she was a respected clinical psychologist with no history of mental illnesses. Plus, no one said it was easy. Something like that can take months of manipulation.
She's actually quite useful. We've seen she's his best fighter. While she might not be able to take Batman, she's provided much better distractions than any of his other goons. She's given characters like Batgirl, Mercy, and Catwoman some good beatings.
It's not just about "getting laid." Plus, it might not be about the Joker's pleasure. Plenty of abusers use sex to keep their partners dependent on them. It's not about pleasure. It's about control.
Harley is one of Joker's success stories. He got someone to turn their life around and be completely dependent on him and didn't have to resort to violence. It's a great gag that he turned a psychologist insane.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 8, 2017 18:10:04 GMT
B&R still wasn't a dark CBM by the way. I know that's not exactly relevant to this particular thread, but I recall having this argument back when the regular IMDB message boards were still around, and I figured it was worth repeating. Uhmm... ok? I still consider it dark. Campy, but dark. Please tell me you don't plan to resurrect this dead horse.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 19:41:10 GMT
Not at all. After all, she was a respected clinical psychologist with no history of mental illnesses. Plus, no one said it was easy. Something like that can take months of manipulation. She's actually quite useful. We've seen she's his best fighter. While she might not be able to take Batman, she's provided much better distractions than any of his other goons. She's given characters like Batgirl, Mercy, and Catwoman some good beatings. It's not just about "getting laid." Plus, it might not be about the Joker's pleasure. Plenty of abusers use sex to keep their partners dependent on them. It's not about pleasure. It's about control. Harley is one of Joker's success stories. He got someone to turn their life around and be completely dependent on him and didn't have to resort to violence. It's a great gag that he turned a psychologist insane. She wasn't respected. Her initial backstory established that she got lousy grades in college initially, before she bribed her professors with sex. That was part of the original 'Mad Love' comic. She was only interested in becoming a "pop" psychiatrist. She wasn't intelligent. She was a ditz who was in over her head. The fact that she fell in love with the Joker because of a bunch of sob stories makes it very clear that she was always a screw loose.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 19:42:34 GMT
B&R still wasn't a dark CBM by the way. I know that's not exactly relevant to this particular thread, but I recall having this argument back when the regular IMDB message boards were still around, and I figured it was worth repeating. Uhmm... ok? I still consider it dark. Campy, but dark. Please tell me you don't plan to resurrect this dead horse. I'm not. I just figured it was worth bringing up since you seemed to have made a thread on the MCU board criticizing "dark" CBMs. I'm merely pointing out that you seem to have a very broad definition of what makes a CBM dark if you consider B&R dark.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 8, 2017 19:52:18 GMT
Not at all. After all, she was a respected clinical psychologist with no history of mental illnesses. Plus, no one said it was easy. Something like that can take months of manipulation. She's actually quite useful. We've seen she's his best fighter. While she might not be able to take Batman, she's provided much better distractions than any of his other goons. She's given characters like Batgirl, Mercy, and Catwoman some good beatings. It's not just about "getting laid." Plus, it might not be about the Joker's pleasure. Plenty of abusers use sex to keep their partners dependent on them. It's not about pleasure. It's about control. Harley is one of Joker's success stories. He got someone to turn their life around and be completely dependent on him and didn't have to resort to violence. It's a great gag that he turned a psychologist insane. She wasn't respected. Her initial backstory established that she got lousy grades in college initially, before she bribed her professors with sex. That was part of the original 'Mad Love' comic. She was only interested in becoming a "pop" psychiatrist. She wasn't intelligent. She was a ditz who was in over her head. The fact that she fell in love with the Joker because of a bunch of sob stories makes it very clear that she was always a screw loose. None of which Batman knows, if I'm not mistaken. So as far as Joker and he are concerned, he transformed a psychologist into a loon. And of course, that doesn't change that she's his number one henchperson. She's a body guard who can fight. Very useful to have around.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 19:56:39 GMT
Batman actually does know. In that same comic that I was previously referring to, he pointed out that Harley never cared about actually studying when she was in college.
Chances are that the Joker probably realized what a screw loose she was as well, considering that she's the only person that he ever tried to manipulate into falling in love with him. It doesn't really strike me as an impressive accomplishment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 20:03:44 GMT
Doesn't all of that make it more interesting though?
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 20:15:20 GMT
Not to me. I'm not interested in the Joker having an admirer/girlfriend, nor am I interested in making the Joker a domestic abuser. The abusive boyfriend trope in general is extremely lazy and overused. It makes the Joker seem like a typical mob boss who just so happens to like clowns, rather than an unpredictable and mysterious force of nature.
It just comes across to me as being extremely boring and rather misogynistic. That's why I always find it amusing whenever people who are apparently fans of B:TAS decide to complain about how sexist SS was for. Of course the movie was sexist! It had Harley Quinn in it!
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 8, 2017 21:57:54 GMT
Uhmm... ok? I still consider it dark. Campy, but dark. Please tell me you don't plan to resurrect this dead horse. I'm not. I just figured it was worth bringing up since you seemed to have made a thread on the MCU board criticizing "dark" CBMs. I'm merely pointing out that you seem to have a very broad definition of what makes a CBM dark if you consider B&R dark. "Dark" IS a broad term. Seems to me you're only applying a very narrow definition to it. But this is neither here nor there. I find it suspicious why you chose to bring this topic up.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 8, 2017 21:58:38 GMT
Batman actually does know. In that same comic that I was previously referring to, he pointed out that Harley never cared about actually studying when she was in college. Chances are that the Joker probably realized what a screw loose she was as well, considering that she's the only person that he ever tried to manipulate into falling in love with him. It doesn't really strike me as an impressive accomplishment. Guess it all depends on the origin. In the Mad Love episode (while it is based on the comic), Harley's not a ditz. She's a professional and tried to do her job well. I wouldn't say she's the only person he ever tried it on. Look at what they did to Tim Drake in Return of the Joker.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 8, 2017 22:03:30 GMT
Not to me. I'm not interested in the Joker having an admirer/girlfriend, nor am I interested in making the Joker a domestic abuser. The abusive boyfriend trope in general is extremely lazy and overused. It makes the Joker seem like a typical mob boss who just so happens to like clowns, rather than an unpredictable and mysterious force of nature. I'd say that would also pigeon hole the Joker into just a typical force of evil. Like Doomsday. No real motivation, no character. Just a force. And while it can work and work well, it isn't sustainable. Harley adds a different layer. No, I do not believe he loves her. But he has his reasons for keeping her around. This is a guy who comes up with crazy over-elaborate schemes. He's not as unpredictable or out of his mind as people would love to believe.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 8, 2017 23:12:02 GMT
I'm not. I just figured it was worth bringing up since you seemed to have made a thread on the MCU board criticizing "dark" CBMs. I'm merely pointing out that you seem to have a very broad definition of what makes a CBM dark if you consider B&R dark. "Dark" IS a broad term. Seems to me you're only applying a very narrow definition to it. But this is neither here nor there. I find it suspicious why you chose to bring this topic up. I just pointed out why I was bringing this topic up. Where's the suspicion? Anyway, the way I see it, if B&R is "dark", so is every film in the MCU.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 8, 2017 23:59:24 GMT
"Dark" IS a broad term. Seems to me you're only applying a very narrow definition to it. But this is neither here nor there. I find it suspicious why you chose to bring this topic up. I just pointed out why I was bringing this topic up. Where's the suspicion? Anyway, the way I see it, if B&R is "dark", so is every film in the MCU. Well, you brought this topic up when it had completely nothing to do with my original post. If I didn't know better I'd say it was almost a personal dig. I mean, it would have made more sense if you brought it up in the Marvel thread I made about dark movies. Anyway, it doesn't look like I can convince you about this so it's pointless.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 9, 2017 0:12:08 GMT
It was an admittedly snarky comment based on a topic that had recently resurfaced in my mind.
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Post by Lee on Mar 9, 2017 19:41:43 GMT
Harley is just an incredible annoying character. If i were a part of the Suicide Squad, i would hit her face, everytime she opens her mouth.
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