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Post by BATouttaheck on Dec 29, 2017 17:31:29 GMT
@weirdraptor
Have you remembered to send in your annual dues to the "Typo and Grammar Police" Association ?
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Post by koskiewicz on Dec 29, 2017 17:46:02 GMT
...these people are clueless...
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 29, 2017 18:12:21 GMT
Thumbs up for the picture. She was great in that crazy movie. Who is it and what is the movie? *licks screen* Ellen Page in "Super" (2010).
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Dec 29, 2017 18:12:32 GMT
My guess is they watch it because they want to. And my guess is that they watch because they find most of them entertaining.
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Post by charzhino on Dec 29, 2017 18:19:59 GMT
Aside from usual Marvel generic films, there have been great innovations within the superhero genre lately with the likes of Deadpool and Logan to revitalise the platform that have kept people interested in how comic book films can be progressed.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 29, 2017 18:56:47 GMT
And I prefer certain American Westerns because in my experience they are less cartoonish than spaghetti westerns. Westerns, spaghetti westerns and comic book films need not be limited, but all too often are. You can give up on them and granted it’s tempting after Avengers 2, but good films that fit the confines of a genre can be made. We watch them because we have hope they can improve, and although it may not be a linear progression, it’s a progression towards better quality films IMO. I watched the Professionals not long after Once Upon a Time in the West and the difference in style was jarring. The Professionals had such an unrealistic ending (Ralph Bellamy has a gang of hired guns and just lets the 4 main characters ride off after they betray him--never would have happened in a euro-western). I think any US western financed by one of the majors would have had a degree of artificiality given their tendency to insert propaganda at the behest of the owners. Perhaps it was different at RKO or UA but the reputation that spaghetti westerns have is the artistic style of the films--an operatic quality on one hand, and gangster movie in the saddle on the other--that no US western ever had. The US western was closer to a standard super hero story in that good and evil were clearly defined and the cowboy was something of a knight figure. Interestingly, Verhoeven's Robocop feels a lot like a spaghetti western. But as to the point on super hero films--there is absolutely no reason to think quality will improve with time since the studio has an assembly line approach to them. Why would they shift gears to a more old fashioned individualistic approach? Disney buying FOX only ensures they will increase the manufacturing tendencies and prevent individual artistic decisions which is what made Robocop so good. Disney wont even let them compose a good musical score without interference.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 19:10:09 GMT
My guess is they watch it because they want to. And my guess is that they watch because they find most of them entertaining. Yes that to.
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Post by Power Ranger on Dec 29, 2017 19:15:23 GMT
And I prefer certain American Westerns because in my experience they are less cartoonish than spaghetti westerns. Westerns, spaghetti westerns and comic book films need not be limited, but all too often are. You can give up on them and granted it’s tempting after Avengers 2, but good films that fit the confines of a genre can be made. We watch them because we have hope they can improve, and although it may not be a linear progression, it’s a progression towards better quality films IMO. I watched the Professionals not long after Once Upon a Time in the West and the difference in style was jarring. The Professionals had such an unrealistic ending (Ralph Bellamy has a gang of hired guns and just lets the 4 main characters ride off after they betray him--never would have happened in a euro-western). I think any US western financed by one of the majors would have had a degree of artificiality given their tendency to insert propaganda at the behest of the owners. Perhaps it was different at RKO or UA but the reputation that spaghetti westerns have is the artistic style of the films--an operatic quality on one hand, and gangster movie in the saddle on the other--that no US western ever had. The US western was closer to a standard super hero story in that good and evil were clearly defined and the cowboy was something of a knight figure. Interestingly, Verhoeven's Robocop feels a lot like a spaghetti western. But as to the point on super hero films--there is absolutely no reason to think quality will improve with time since the studio has an assembly line approach to them. Why would they shift gears to a more old fashioned individualistic approach? Disney buying FOX only ensures they will increase the manufacturing tendencies and prevent individual artistic decisions which is what made Robocop so good. Disney wont even let them compose a good musical score without interference. Financial incentive will dumb down blockbusters but as superhero films become more popular they will diversify. I don’t rate Deadpool or Logan very highly, but they do show that SH films are changing. They were profitable and some auteurs do want to be involved with them. As to your claim about spaghetti westerns, you’d be hard pressed to claim that they are less cartoonish than American ones. There were thousands of Westerns made, and although I haven’t seen all spaghetti westerns my experience has been that they were more likely to be concerned with gunplay and western tropes. Plots concerning revenge were prominent. American Westerns often were meditations on all aspects of life. And like my prediction on superhero movies, all directors wanted to make them. American Westerns included some of the richest films I’ve seen thematically, with treatises on them being passionately written about by many. Forget about The Professionals, which I don’t rate too highly. McCabe and Mrs Miller wasn’t a spaghetti Western. Peter Fonda’s The Hired Hand likewise. Even Sam Peckinpah’s films were IMO of a literary integrity that I myself haven’t seen in spaghetti westerns. I haven’t even mentioned the authenticity of the dialogue and accents, for Italians even when using American actors are notorious for their use of dubbing (a feature which extends beyond the western genre for Italian cinema of the time). Italians made Westerns due to a love of American Westerns and they emulated them and excelled in some areas but not IMO in the writing.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 29, 2017 19:30:51 GMT
Financial incentive will dumb down blockbusters but as superhero films become more popular they will diversify. I don’t rate Deadpool or Logan very highly, but they do show that SH films are changing. As to your claim about spaghetti westerns, you’d be hard pressed to claim that they are less cartoonish than American ones. Italians made Westerns due to a love of American Westerns and they emulated them and excelled in some areas but not IMO in the writing. There is no reason to think a big corporation like Disney would seek diversity in content when their content decisions demonstrate the opposite. They have money-they aren't dependent on US consumers, so why would they want diversity? They arent even interested in making content for domestic audiences anymore. Superheroes are too limited in potential due to the super-power aspects of it. Westerns are about mortals and did not have juvenile roots like superheroes did. As for the US vs Euro western debate-- depends on your framework for quality. Do you think the Professionals is a good western? I found it incredibly childish in human behavior. The thing with Euro westerns is that characters were more authentic in behavior than your average do-gooder frontiersman western. Especially the singing cowboy variety. There were lethal consequences. Revenge happens. So does betrayal. Human nature in action. This is what made spaghetti westerns so well regarded today. The euro westerns didnt relie on long dialogue scenes because they didnt have to. Watch a film like FACE TO FACE to get an idea of how complex the characterization in a euro-western can be. Not aware of any US western that would compare in character complexity to that one.
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Post by Power Ranger on Dec 29, 2017 19:35:45 GMT
Financial incentive will dumb down blockbusters but as superhero films become more popular they will diversify. I don’t rate Deadpool or Logan very highly, but they do show that SH films are changing. As to your claim about spaghetti westerns, you’d be hard pressed to claim that they are less cartoonish than American ones. Italians made Westerns due to a love of American Westerns and they emulated them and excelled in some areas but not IMO in the writing. There is no reason to think a big corporation like Disney would seek diversity in content when their content decisions demonstrate the opposite. They have money-they aren't dependent on US consumers, so why would they want diversity? They arent even interested in making content for domestic audiences anymore. Superheroes are too limited in potential due to the super-power aspects of it. Westerns are about mortals and did not have juvenile roots like superheroes did. As for the US vs Euro western debate-- depends on your framework for quality. Do you think the Professionals is a good western? I found it incredibly childish in human behavior. The thing with Euro westerns is that characters were more authentic in behavior than your average do-gooder frontiersman western. Especially the singing cowboy variety. There were lethal consequences. Revenge happens. So does betrayal. Human nature in action. This is what made spaghetti westerns so well regarded today. The euro westerns didnt relie on long dialogue scenes because they didnt have to. Watch a film like FACE TO FACE to get an idea of how complex the characterization in a euro-western can be. Not aware of any US western that would compare in character complexity to that one. I think I mentioned that I don’t rate The Professionals very highly. I’ve never seen Face to Face. You’re not aware of an American Western that would compare in character complexity? Well if the only Western you cite is The Professionals I’m not surprised.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 19:39:25 GMT
In the hopes that Hawkeye will put on his helmet in it
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Dec 29, 2017 19:47:07 GMT
American Westerns are far more realistic in general than Spaghetti Westerns. Clint Eastwood outdraws 4 gunmen face to face simultaneously? John Wayne never did anything so absurd in his movies. Some of the stuff in Italian Westerns is just as crazy as superhero movies.
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Post by Power Ranger on Dec 29, 2017 19:47:10 GMT
Financial incentive will dumb down blockbusters but as superhero films become more popular they will diversify. I don’t rate Deadpool or Logan very highly, but they do show that SH films are changing. As to your claim about spaghetti westerns, you’d be hard pressed to claim that they are less cartoonish than American ones. Italians made Westerns due to a love of American Westerns and they emulated them and excelled in some areas but not IMO in the writing. There is no reason to think a big corporation like Disney would seek diversity in content when their content decisions demonstrate the opposite. They have money-they aren't dependent on US consumers, so why would they want diversity? They arent even interested in making content for domestic audiences anymore. Superheroes are too limited in potential due to the super-power aspects of it. Westerns are about mortals and did not have juvenile roots like superheroes did. As for the US vs Euro western debate-- depends on your framework for quality. Do you think the Professionals is a good western? I found it incredibly childish in human behavior. The thing with Euro westerns is that characters were more authentic in behavior than your average do-gooder frontiersman western. Especially the singing cowboy variety. There were lethal consequences. Revenge happens. So does betrayal. Human nature in action. This is what made spaghetti westerns so well regarded today. The euro westerns didnt relie on long dialogue scenes because they didnt have to. Watch a film like FACE TO FACE to get an idea of how complex the characterization in a euro-western can be. Not aware of any US western that would compare in character complexity to that one. Shakespeare had magical Imp characters. Then there are various religious texts with supernatural characters. You’re certainly taking on giants of the literary world here.
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Post by Power Ranger on Dec 29, 2017 20:16:32 GMT
Financial incentive will dumb down blockbusters but as superhero films become more popular they will diversify. I don’t rate Deadpool or Logan very highly, but they do show that SH films are changing. As to your claim about spaghetti westerns, you’d be hard pressed to claim that they are less cartoonish than American ones. Italians made Westerns due to a love of American Westerns and they emulated them and excelled in some areas but not IMO in the writing. There is no reason to think a big corporation like Disney would seek diversity in content when their content decisions demonstrate the opposite. They have money-they aren't dependent on US consumers, so why would they want diversity? They arent even interested in making content for domestic audiences anymore. Superheroes are too limited in potential due to the super-power aspects of it. Westerns are about mortals and did not have juvenile roots like superheroes did. As for the US vs Euro western debate-- depends on your framework for quality. Do you think the Professionals is a good western? I found it incredibly childish in human behavior. The thing with Euro westerns is that characters were more authentic in behavior than your average do-gooder frontiersman western. Especially the singing cowboy variety. There were lethal consequences. Revenge happens. So does betrayal. Human nature in action. This is what made spaghetti westerns so well regarded today. The euro westerns didnt relie on long dialogue scenes because they didnt have to. Watch a film like FACE TO FACE to get an idea of how complex the characterization in a euro-western can be. Not aware of any US western that would compare in character complexity to that one. I’m sorry I’ve been flippant here primeguffer. And we’re at a stalemate because neither of us have seen the films each is championing. I don’t doubt there are spaghetti westerns which have highly complex characterisations, but it’s bold to say that any such spaghetti westerns have a higher complexity than any American Western (even if such a thing could be measured). Many American Westerns spawn from classics of American literature. I mention McCabe and Mrs Miller because I think it a fine example of a very rich text. Thousands of Westerns were made in the US. Obviously a great deal were standard fare churned out with little care and many were plain dumb. But many weren’t. And among those which weren’t are more than I have seen. Also I gravitate to Westerns of the seventies anyway.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 29, 2017 20:28:35 GMT
I’ve never seen Face to Face. You’re not aware of an American Western that would compare in character complexity? Well if the only Western you cite is The Professionals I’m not surprised. Vera Cruz (which is something of a prototype for a spaghetti western). Another would be Chuka. Those are rare cases of a US western where I didnt feel it was romanticized or artificial. VC was appropriately enough, a United Artists film so it was independent not a major studio film. As for your other remark about Shakespeare. Most of Shakespeare's characters were mortal, not imps. A better reference for you would be Homer. Achilles was a demi-god. But, even he is fated to die so it's not quite the same as your average superhero. Achilles was a soldier--he was in war for selfish reasons--glory for himself. A superhero is devoted to public service so that alone sets it apart. Even a cowboy has an instinct for self-preservation behind their motivations even if it is altruistic. Odysseus sought to return home. It is a goal many people can identify with on a human level. Most superheroes are devoid of that aspect. But back to the original point. A spaghetti western (or US western if you prefer) is very limited in material. Town, mountains, horses, guns, frontier, indians etc. And yet there was massive variety in story content. A superhero story in theory should have 10 x the potential in plotting given the lack of restrictions on environment-and yet, people often complain how boring they have become. Why the difference? How is it that westerns could last for decades but the superhero genre is getting so boring? The reason is partly due to the limited aspects of human nature in the superhero personality (as I said, they are not motivated by self-interest or survival most of the time). Another is the stifling nature of the big corporation agenda in filmmaking. I notice people will praise a film like Logan (including the mainstream media which I dont listen to) but the story itself has little to do with superhero elements. It's basically about a dying guy and a kid with a failure message. What's super about it? And even the mere mortals of a western wouldn't have a plot so dreary. I said Robocop was the best costumed superhero film. I thought Superman was very good but I can see why people might criticize it for too much humor. Perhaps we should go back to the Adventures of Captain Marvel serial? It has almost no humor and yet as a straight adventure film was refreshingly simple and entertaining (and true to the source genre). There isn't any modern superhero movie that uses that formula. Instead they inject insincere social commentary and character foibles or comedy. I would say that if the superhero genre was taken out of the hands of Hollywood and given to filmmakers in the US that had no connection to it (lord knows we dont want another superhero given to a Taiwanese filmmaker), I bet a crowd pleasing film could be made for US audiences. But the artists have to come from the community of the audience like in the old days with westerns.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 4:01:13 GMT
In the hopes that Hawkeye will put on his helmet in it ![](https://s26.postimg.org/7d754nzix/clap.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 7:36:57 GMT
That's not a good question. The better question would be "Why do people keep watching generic mass produced superhero movies?" The answer I don't know. I guess because of the internet and people becoming dumber.
There's nothing wrong with superhero movies as long as they are made by people with actual creative talent like Nolan or Raimi.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 9:18:37 GMT
There's nothing wrong with superhero movies as long as they are made by people with actual creative talent like Nolan or Raimi.Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies sucked.
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