|
Post by goz on Jan 31, 2018 21:13:40 GMT
That is really fascinating and I can completely understand/agree with those thoughts. Many have described it as a search for meaning on a personal level. It is actually, as I said before, quite a Buddhist concept. When I have written about this before, I have described it as being a personal search from the inside, as opposed to an acceptance of an 'imposition' of an outside creation/structure in which to fit myself, which is what I see in organised faith and religion. Interestingly I think is is also quite a Christian concept, but many Christians have lost sight of it and pay lip service to theology not growth. No, with respect, the Christian concept of the imposition of God/Jesus as being conditional for belief negates that in my view. External imposition v internal searching and improvement. I am not saying that Christians like yourself are not searching and learning etc, butt the difference is clear that acceptance of God and 'faith' is the prime motivation of the religion.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 31, 2018 21:22:22 GMT
Interestingly I think is is also quite a Christian concept, but many Christians have lost sight of it and pay lip service to theology not growth. No, with respect, the Christian concept of the imposition of God/Jesus as being conditional for belief negates that in my view. External imposition v internal searching and improvement. I am not saying that Christians like yourself are not searching and learning etc, butt the difference is clear that acceptance of God and 'faith' is the prime motivation of the religion. You are saying the search for meaning on a personal level is Bhuddist. It is also Christian. It may not be modern Christian, but it was certainly extant in the teachings of the early church. You might need to explain what you mean about the imposition of God/Jesus as being conditional for belief though.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 31, 2018 21:27:41 GMT
No, with respect, the Christian concept of the imposition of God/Jesus as being conditional for belief negates that in my view. External imposition v internal searching and improvement. I am not saying that Christians like yourself are not searching and learning etc, butt the difference is clear that acceptance of God and 'faith' is the prime motivation of the religion. You are saying the search for meaning on a personal level is Bhuddist. It is also Christian. It may not be modern Christian, but it was certainly extant in the teachings of the early church. You might need to explain what you mean about the imposition of God/Jesus as being conditional for belief though. It is very simple.( and I am not Buddhist btw, I just find some of their philosophies ring true and are useful to me) I don't have a belief in God because the concept is external to me. My spiritual life is internal. To me God is a concept made up by other people which has no relevance to me, so I cannot believe nor have faith. Isn't this the core belief on Christianity, and you can't be a Christian without it?
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 31, 2018 21:30:48 GMT
You are saying the search for meaning on a personal level is Bhuddist. It is also Christian. It may not be modern Christian, but it was certainly extant in the teachings of the early church. You might need to explain what you mean about the imposition of God/Jesus as being conditional for belief though. It is very simple.( and I am not Buddhist btw, I just find some of their philosophies ring true and are useful to me) I don't have a belief in God because the concept is external to me. My spiritual life is internal. To me God is a concept made up by other people which has no relevance to me, so I cannot believe nor have faith. Isn't this the core belief on Christianity, and you can't be a Christian without it? Well I doubt you will get far determining what is required to be a Christian, but . . . Yes God is external to you, but if all of your spiritual life is internal how do reconcile that with spirituality being about finding yourself within the universe you inhabit? Surely that is external.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 31, 2018 21:40:11 GMT
It is very simple.( and I am not Buddhist btw, I just find some of their philosophies ring true and are useful to me) I don't have a belief in God because the concept is external to me. My spiritual life is internal. To me God is a concept made up by other people which has no relevance to me, so I cannot believe nor have faith. Isn't this the core belief on Christianity, and you can't be a Christian without it? Well I doubt you will get far determining what is required to be a Christian, but . . . Yes God is external to you, but if all of your spiritual life is internal how do reconcile that with spirituality being about finding yourself within the universe you inhabit? Surely that is external. Well, I think belief in Jesus/God/Trinity is prerequisite, no? and the rest optional? I don't know as I am not one, by any definition. Ahah! I was hoping you would ask. As I said about my spirituality, it is through my 'perceptions' of what I find in the universe which I internalise and try to make sense to find my personal place. I don't have to filter it though a man made external god figure. My perceptions are purely my own. This is very wide because of course no man is an island and the whole point is to learn and progress and grow. In truth much of my psyche is governed by early influence of family, being a member of a Christian community and going to an Anglican school for years ( mainly as a child as it is now multicultural and multi faith) so there has been a plurality of thoughts perceptions to integrate.
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Jan 31, 2018 21:43:41 GMT
|
|
|
Post by general313 on Jan 31, 2018 21:59:24 GMT
Music is one of the things that comes to mind. Spiritual music can run the range from anything that gives you goosebumps and inspires awe to something that makes you ponder your existence, mortality or place in the universe. I suppose this use is metaphorical and I think pretty commonly used, and the word must have originally had a superstitious literal meaning. I see where you are going with this especially "Spiritual music can run the range from anything that gives you goosebumps and inspires awe to something that makes you ponder your existence, mortality or place in the universe. " and yes, it does seem metaphorical. The danger is semantically that many people would only use the term 'spiritual' for music in the sense of religious music, even Negro spirituals which are religious. I much prefer your usage as it is less specific and more general and means the same thing in a secular context, We often use the term "soul searching" to mean doing a reevaluation of one's core principles too, regardless of our belief in a Christian style soul.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 31, 2018 22:09:21 GMT
Well I doubt you will get far determining what is required to be a Christian, but . . . Yes God is external to you, but if all of your spiritual life is internal how do reconcile that with spirituality being about finding yourself within the universe you inhabit? Surely that is external. Well, I think belief in Jesus/God/Trinity is prerequisite, no? and the rest optional? I don't know as I am not one, by any definition. Ahah! I was hoping you would ask. As I said about my spirituality, it is through my 'perceptions' of what I find in the universe which I internalise and try to make sense to find my personal place. I don't have to filter it though a man made external god figure. My perceptions are purely my own. This is very wide because of course no man is an island and the whole point is to learn and progress and grow. In truth much of my psyche is governed by early influence of family, being a member of a Christian community and going to an Anglican school for years ( mainly as a child as it is now multicultural and multi faith) so there has been a plurality of thoughts perceptions to integrate. I don't have to filter my experience through a man made God filter either. I also use my perceptions of what I find in the universe and internalise them to try and make sense to find my personal place. I think you are perceiving Christianity as requiring that somehow I need to ask God™ or something to find my place in the universe(I maybe wrong but that is the only way I can interpret what you have said), but on a metaphysical level God™ is just an interpretation of the universe and our place in it, I see no difference between what you are describing and what I interpret and experience as a Christian.
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jan 31, 2018 23:16:51 GMT
Depends on the day of the week! Sometimes, “spiritual” means: That's my definition every day of the week! Gin & tonic is also medicinal
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 23:29:27 GMT
Depends on the day of the week! Sometimes, “spiritual” means: Make mine a shot of Fireball, straight up, room temperature please.
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Feb 1, 2018 2:17:01 GMT
I just think of spiritual as being our first-hand psychological experience of being human. I don't think it's anything non-physical. Interesting. Would I be presumptuous to suggest then, that such words as consciousness and sentience are synonyms for your understanding of 'spiritual'? My other comment is that the manifestations of the things which I mentioned, love et al are not physical, however I suppose you could say that as they are seated in our brain and experience, psychologically ( through our physical senses) do you mean that? I think consciousness is an aspect of what we'd call spiritual, but the spiritual would also include all the unconscious aspects of ourselves as well. It's the more the totality of humanity's psychological life. Consciousness is just what we're aware of. Plus, we're often most aware of sensory things (whatever we're seeing/hearing/etc. at the moment), and I tend to think that the spiritual is often what we call what we intuitively sense beyond whatever we directly sense. It's that anxiety you might feel the first time you smell or feel the change of seasons in the air, as opposed to just the "plain sense of things" (in the words of Wallace Stevens) itself. I think our feeling of things like love is very much caused by physical brain states, so I do think love is physical in the sense that it has a physical cause. The existence of non-physical things is rather incoherent to me; a bit like saying that nothing can be something.
|
|
|
Post by maya55555 on Feb 1, 2018 2:25:18 GMT
Thank me for bumping your thread:
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2018 2:30:15 GMT
Well, I think belief in Jesus/God/Trinity is prerequisite, no? and the rest optional? I don't know as I am not one, by any definition. Ahah! I was hoping you would ask. As I said about my spirituality, it is through my 'perceptions' of what I find in the universe which I internalise and try to make sense to find my personal place. I don't have to filter it though a man made external god figure. My perceptions are purely my own. This is very wide because of course no man is an island and the whole point is to learn and progress and grow. In truth much of my psyche is governed by early influence of family, being a member of a Christian community and going to an Anglican school for years ( mainly as a child as it is now multicultural and multi faith) so there has been a plurality of thoughts perceptions to integrate. I don't have to filter my experience through a man made God filter either. I also use my perceptions of what I find in the universe and internalise them to try and make sense to find my personal place. I think you are perceiving Christianity as requiring that somehow I need to ask God™ or something to find my place in the universe(I maybe wrong but that is the only way I can interpret what you have said), but on a metaphysical level God™ is just an interpretation of the universe and our place in it, I see no difference between what you are describing and what I interpret and experience as a Christian. Where does God, fit in then? Why have that when you are perfectly capable of sussing stuff out for yourself? Surely God is superfluous? I don't get it. What does a belief in God add to your experience of the universe?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2018 2:37:01 GMT
Interesting. Would I be presumptuous to suggest then, that such words as consciousness and sentience are synonyms for your understanding of 'spiritual'? My other comment is that the manifestations of the things which I mentioned, love et al are not physical, however I suppose you could say that as they are seated in our brain and experience, psychologically ( through our physical senses) do you mean that? I think consciousness is an aspect of what we'd call spiritual, but the spiritual would also include all the unconscious aspects of ourselves as well. It's the more the totality of humanity's psychological life. Consciousness is just what we're aware of. Plus, we're often most aware of sensory things (whatever we're seeing/hearing/etc. at the moment), and I tend to think that the spiritual is often what we call what we intuitively sense beyond whatever we directly sense. It's that anxiety you might feel the first time you smell or feel the change of seasons in the air, as opposed to just the "plain sense of things" (in the words of Wallace Stevens) itself. I think our feeling of things like love is very much caused by physical brain states, so I do think love is physical in the sense that it has a physical cause. The existence of non-physical things is rather incoherent to me; a bit like saying that nothing can be something. Then how do you classify what you called 'all the unconscious aspects of ourselves'? Are they physical?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2018 2:38:37 GMT
I see where you are going with this especially "Spiritual music can run the range from anything that gives you goosebumps and inspires awe to something that makes you ponder your existence, mortality or place in the universe. " and yes, it does seem metaphorical. The danger is semantically that many people would only use the term 'spiritual' for music in the sense of religious music, even Negro spirituals which are religious. I much prefer your usage as it is less specific and more general and means the same thing in a secular context, We often use the term "soul searching" to mean doing a reevaluation of one's core principles too, regardless of our belief in a Christian style soul. Then what is the thing that you refer to as 'soul' when you re-evaluate your core principles?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2018 2:41:13 GMT
Thank me for bumping your thread:
F.O.M
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Feb 1, 2018 2:43:14 GMT
I think consciousness is an aspect of what we'd call spiritual, but the spiritual would also include all the unconscious aspects of ourselves as well. It's the more the totality of humanity's psychological life. Consciousness is just what we're aware of. Plus, we're often most aware of sensory things (whatever we're seeing/hearing/etc. at the moment), and I tend to think that the spiritual is often what we call what we intuitively sense beyond whatever we directly sense. It's that anxiety you might feel the first time you smell or feel the change of seasons in the air, as opposed to just the "plain sense of things" (in the words of Wallace Stevens) itself. I think our feeling of things like love is very much caused by physical brain states, so I do think love is physical in the sense that it has a physical cause. The existence of non-physical things is rather incoherent to me; a bit like saying that nothing can be something. Then how do you classify what you called 'all the unconscious aspects of ourselves'? Are they physical? Yes, I also think our unconsciousness is caused by physical brain states. Interestingly, Hegel's most famous philosophical work is called Phänomenologie des Geistes, which is often translated as "Phenomenology of Spirit" or "Phenomenology of Mind" because "Geistes" can mean either in German, and indeed Hegel spends much of the work trying to describe the development of the mind. So I think there's something of a tradition with associating mind with spirit. At least, if there's a difference, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2018 2:59:12 GMT
I actually don't let it define me Then how do you classify what you called 'all the unconscious aspects of ourselves'? Are they physical? Yes, I also think our unconsciousness is caused by physical brain states. Interestingly, Hegel's most famous philosophical work is called Phänomenologie des Geistes, which is often translated as "Phenomenology of Spirit" or "Phenomenology of Mind" because "Geistes" can mean either in German, and indeed Hegel spends much of the work trying to describe the development of the mind. So I think there's something of a tradition with associating mind with spirit. At least, if there's a difference, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. In the same way that I am agnostic (atheist) about religion and admit that though I am pretty sure that there is no God or afterlife, and retain a tiny part of my self to admit that I ( and also no-one else can possibly know) I am a bit of an agnostic spiritualist. I wrote this to Winter on that thread about him claiming to have spoken to God. There have been many things in my life that have been logically inexplicable, and usually I am a rational sceptic. I don't let these things define me, in fact they add 'another dimension' to my life this is fun and amusing and also just weird and they happen on a fairly regular basis. So I am a bit agnostic on the subject of the power of the mind and tend to think that I am extremely sensitive and intuitive and this influences what happens to me.
|
|
|
Post by maya55555 on Feb 1, 2018 4:25:11 GMT
goz
You are a naughty girl with a foul mouth, honey.
F.O.M. really?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2018 4:56:46 GMT
goz
You are a naughty girl with a foul mouth, honey.
F.O.M. really?
You are quite mistaken Molar, I did not say FOAM.
|
|