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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 18:45:52 GMT
That's just flat out false. You declared that it's because of religion that nations go to war. Your exact statement: "It is because of religion (as a whole) that nations go to war, and why people who follow different beliefs are persecuted." So either you consider atheism a religion (plus a bunch of other philosophies that also aren't religions) or you should walk back your broad brush statement. Let's just call it 'tribalism' - "Our (religion, form of government, culture) is the TRUE (religion, form of government, culture) and you should change, and if you don't, we will use violent means to convince you, up to and including torture and death." You can label it however you want, but this inertia is a human trait, not a religious trait. It just so happens that humans follow religions. South Park covered this pretty well, in my opinion.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2018 18:46:39 GMT
I don’t know what you mean by “atheist governments”, but to stay on point, no government ever initiated a war or persecuted people in the name of “atheism”. That’s not a thing! There have been non-religious wars, but that fact is irrelevant as it does not invalidate the existence of the wars that were religious in nature. Dude, Communist regimes do not just espouse Communism. Communism is more of the economic side of their structure, but most of those Communist regimes espouse other things, including, most times, atheism. Read up some more on the current North Korean regime and look back in recent history at the Chinese government and then further back at the Soviets. All claimed atheism. Between the three of them, they have either committed genocide or started wars and all three of them have persecuted theists, generally Christians. First of all, please don’t call me “dude” okay. Secondly, limiting religious rights and freedoms is not the same thing as “espousing atheism”. There is nothing for the government to actually espouse. The actions of communist regimes you speak of were merely a measure of controlling people and denying rights (which is what communism does in general). Coincidentally, that’s also what religion does, so if anything communism has more in common with religion than atheism does. Whether these communist regimes have persecuted Christians or not is irrelevant because Christians have persecuted Muslims, and Muslims have persecuted Jews. But atheism is not a way of life or a style of government. It doesn’t persecute anyone, nor is anyone persecuted “in the name” of atheism because that’s not a thing!
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2018 18:49:12 GMT
I really don’t. Most of my family are Christians, and many of my friends. They don’t shove their religion down other people’s throats, and they don’t use it as an excuse to condemn others. If every Christian was like this, then the world would also be a better place. We disagree on matters concerning religion, but I neither hate them, nor do I hate that they practice something I don’t believe in. The problem is, as with all other religions, many Christians are NOT like that. And I do think that ultimately the world will be better off and more prosperous for all of humanity when we move past religion, and embrace science and reason. Because the problem with religion is that it not only perpetuates ignorance, but it infects all aspects of society (politics in particular) which is damaging. It is because of religion (as a whole) that nations go to war, and why people who follow different beliefs are persecuted. No. As with all religion I want to get rid of Christianity too (for the aforementioned reasons). But I don’t hate it, because I can acknowledge that it does have some positive attributes (again when used appropriately). I can appreciate it for what it can be. I also don’t hate practitioners of it, unless they use it to do harm. I just think we’d be better off without all religion. But if the choice came down to getting rid of only Christianity while leaving all other religions here, I’d rather keep it. Because in general it’s certainly a better belief system than some other religions. I only disagree with Christianity. There are actually other religions that I hate. Nicely blagged. Not very convincing but a good bluff all the same. I’m not particularly interested in “convincing you” of anything, only in making you look like a goddamn idiot when you attack me with your faulty logic and slowness to comprehend. There is a “hater” here, but it ain’t me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 18:51:45 GMT
Dude, Communist regimes do not just espouse Communism. Communism is more of the economic side of their structure, but most of those Communist regimes espouse other things, including, most times, atheism. Read up some more on the current North Korean regime and look back in recent history at the Chinese government and then further back at the Soviets. All claimed atheism. Between the three of them, they have either committed genocide or started wars and all three of them have persecuted theists, generally Christians. First of all, please don’t call me “dude” okay. Duly noted. They espoused atheism. I suggest you read up some more.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2018 18:54:21 GMT
First of all, please don’t call me “dude” okay. Duly noted. They espoused atheism. I suggest you read up some more. And I suggest you read and consider everything else I wrote in my previous comment (which you are largely ignoring) that makes your assertion here moot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 18:56:00 GMT
Duly noted. They espoused atheism. I suggest you read up some more. And I suggest you read and consider everything else I wrote in my previous comment (which you are largely ignoring) that makes your assertion here moot. I read your whole comment. Now please read the histories of each regime and how they very frankly and openly espouse atheism. So I ask again: do you consider atheism a religion?
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2018 19:00:34 GMT
And I suggest you read and consider everything else I wrote in my previous comment (which you are largely ignoring) that makes your assertion here moot. I read your whole comment. Now please read the histories of each regime and how they very frankly and openly espouse atheism. So I ask again: do you consider atheism a religion? Of course not; such a statement defies logic.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 2, 2018 19:29:57 GMT
Nicely blagged. Not very convincing but a good bluff all the same. I’m not particularly interested in “convincing you” of anything, only in making you look like a goddamn idiot when you attack me with your faulty logic and slowness to comprehend. There is a “hater” here, but it ain’t me. Bolded part, well said.
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Post by Cody™ on Feb 2, 2018 19:43:59 GMT
I’m not particularly interested in “convincing you” of anything, only in making you look like a goddamn idiot when you attack me with your faulty logic and slowness to comprehend. There is a “hater” here, but it ain’t me. Bolded part, well said. CB can try to backtrack and talk his way out of it all he likes it won't wash. Bottom line is he got caught slipping and being disingenuous. One minute he's claiming "The sooner we get rid of religion, the sooner we can begin to heal the world" the next it's "I don’t have a problem with Christians or Christianity in general". Clear contradiction. And he's got the audacity to question other people's alleged faulty logic.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 2, 2018 19:46:10 GMT
tpfkar FilmFlaneur No exaggeration on my part. I said Islam's most authentic sources(including her own testimony) teach that Aisha was 6 at marriage and 9 during consummation. You're the one guilty of exaggerating by trying to make out that this is a hotly disputed case within orthodox Islam. I backed it up by citing one of sunni Islam's most respected scholars who completely debunked all your disingenuous nonsense. The article even includes a narration from Ibn Kathir(regarded as Islam's greatest commentator) who confirms that "this is a matter on which the scholars were agreed, and there was no report that any one of them disagreed." He's an underboss to the sanguinary capricious Beast who dictates the rape of 6/9 year old girls as the spoils of war as well as the massacre of male children, and savagely slaughters millions of children from infants up, Personally. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 19:59:43 GMT
I read your whole comment. Now please read the histories of each regime and how they very frankly and openly espouse atheism. So I ask again: do you consider atheism a religion? Of course not; such a statement defies logic. Good. Then surely you must admit that "It is because of religion (as a whole) that nations go to war, and why people who follow different beliefs are persecuted." is an unfair statement and reflects only part of the truth. As a religious man, I can admit that my and other religions have done exactly what you have ascribed to them in your quote above. Can you now admit that people in power who do not follow a particular religion also have done the things you describe above?
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 2, 2018 20:03:26 GMT
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2018 20:08:43 GMT
Of course not; such a statement defies logic. Good. Then surely you must admit that "It is because of religion (as a whole) that nations go to war, and why people who follow different beliefs are persecuted." is an unfair statement and reflects only part of the truth. Which “truth”, that religion does in fact played a role in suffering and persecution in the world? Yes. The other “part” of that truth being that many other things have also contributed to suffering and persecution. But that doesn’t absolve religion as being a contributing factor does it? That’s very mature of you. Unfortunately Cody cannot being himself to admit this fact, because he’s brainwashed! I’ve never denied that in the first place. As I said, there are many reason why war and suffering exist, but they have to be evaluated on an individual basis and dealt with on their own. In this case, we are discussing religion and it has played a significant role. “Atheism” by contrast does not because no one goes to war to spread atheism. And while persecution of religious organizations has occurred at the hands of communist regimes, that has never actually hindered anyone from practicing their own faith in private. So it doesn’t compare with what religious regimes have done to hinder the rights of the irreligious, or people of other religions, or people of the same religion who practice differently.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 20:31:43 GMT
Good. Then surely you must admit that "It is because of religion (as a whole) that nations go to war, and why people who follow different beliefs are persecuted." is an unfair statement and reflects only part of the truth. Which “truth”, that religion does in fact played a role in suffering and persecution in the world? Yes. Agreed. It has/does. Agreed! They have/do! It certainly doesn't. At all. So once again, agreed. That's three in row! I'm proud of us. Well, I can only speak for myself both here on earth and in heaven. While I don't believe any of the teachings of the Bible are evil or wrong, I can certainly admit that kings, governments, religious organizations, profiteers, etc. have over and over and over and over and over throughout history abused and mangled the Bible and its teachings to condone evil. Dang. We were doing so good. It just seemed to me that your original quotes seemed to indicate that the removal of religion would exterminate war and persecution. If you'd like to include non-religious principalities in your thesis, then we'd agree. Your assertion about atheism not going to war to spread atheism is not something I can agree with based on my studies of history. You are incorrect about Communist regimes not hindering practitioners of faith in private. China has done this recently. Basement Christians are persecuted for practicing their faith privately. I think if you do embark upon a holistic historic comparison of religious and non-religious regimes in history, you will find that they equally abuse their power.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:10:10 GMT
It's not surprising to me that so many atheists also happen to be statists. The power of the state is their god. A collectivist "utopia" is their heaven. And John Lennon's "Imagine" is played on repeat.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 2, 2018 21:10:31 GMT
tpfkar Of course not; such a statement defies logic. As a religious man, I can admit that my and other religions have done exactly what you have ascribed to them in your quote above. Can you now admit that people in power who do not follow a particular religion also have done the things you describe above? I don't think anybody's suggested that religion as a base is the only kind of inevitably nasty governance. a truth they are rather not confronted with
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:34:21 GMT
Which “truth”, that religion does in fact played a role in suffering and persecution in the world? Yes. Agreed. It has/does. Agreed! They have/do! It certainly doesn't. At all. So once again, agreed. That's three in row! I'm proud of us. Well, I can only speak for myself both here on earth and in heaven. While I don't believe any of the teachings of the Bible are evil or wrong, I can certainly admit that kings, governments, religious organizations, profiteers, etc. have over and over and over and over and over throughout history abused and mangled the Bible and its teachings to condone evil. Dang. We were doing so good. It just seemed to me that your original quotes seemed to indicate that the removal of religion would exterminate war and persecution. If you'd like to include non-religious principalities in your thesis, then we'd agree. Your assertion about atheism not going to war to spread atheism is not something I can agree with based on my studies of history. You are incorrect about Communist regimes not hindering practitioners of faith in private. China has done this recently. Basement Christians are persecuted for practicing their faith privately. I think if you do embark upon a holistic historic comparison of religious and non-religious regimes in history, you will find that they equally abuse their power. People always want to act like their tribe has the moral high ground. Atheists are no different. The reality is that power corrupts, no matter who has it. One of the worst things to ever happen to the Christian faith was Constantine making Christianity the official religion of Rome. It was around this time that Christians stopped acting like Jesus and started acting more like Caesar. And for the atheist, the power of the state tends to fill their "god vacuum." So when you get someone like Stalin in power, watch out, religious people. Can't have anyone competing with the Government God.
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Post by thefleetsin on Feb 2, 2018 21:58:47 GMT
or someone opening up sessions of government conjuring up spirit fathers to grant approval over what they are doing.
the only thing missing is the boiling cauldron and the long line of supplicants just dying to have their heads boiled.
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Post by tickingmask on Feb 2, 2018 22:25:27 GMT
As with all religion I want to get rid of Christianity too How do you reconcile wanting to get rid of Christianity with not having a problem with Christianity? I can't even begin to understand how this works. If you don't have a problem with it, why do you want to get rid of it? If I said, for example: "I don't have a problem with homosexuality, but I want to get rid of homosexuality" would you not find that confusing?
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2018 22:37:04 GMT
As with all religion I want to get rid of Christianity too How do you reconcile wanting to get rid of Christianity with not having a problem with Christianity? I can't even begin to understand how this works. If you don't have a problem with it, why do you want to get rid of it? Allow me to use this analogy. I don’t have a problem with cigarette smokers, as long as their habit doesn’t affect me. If that’s something people want to do to themselves, then they have that right. It’s only when I have to be stuck in a confined place where someone is smoking that I get pissed off, because now their habit is affecting my health. But as far as smoking in general goes, I neither hate people who do it, nor people who sell cigarettes to make a living. However, I also think it’s generally speaking an unhealthy thing that people shouldn’t do. And that the world would ultimately be healthier and more prosperous if cigarettes didn’t exist.
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