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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 4, 2018 6:23:33 GMT
Okay, here's the groundwork: From TFA and TLJ we know that Snoke was Kylo's master and he at least partially trained him... (at the end of TFA Snoke says it's time that Kylo finish/complete his training). We know from TLJ that Kylo was an apprentice at Luke's Jedi academy... (Sorry TFA defenders who claimed that Kylo could've been a student interview of Luke and a rejection - the implication being he received virtually no training and didn't have an advantage over Rey in that department. You know who you are). So here's the question: Since Rey had no training and Luke had cut himself off from the Force for a decade and a half, how is it that Kylo Ren (who has had more training than either one over the past decade) a constant loser to Rey and Luke? How do you explain that? Kylo Ren is conflicted between the light side and dark side of the force, as well as his fear that he'll never live up to his grandfather. Killing his dad was supposed to solve this, but as we saw when he spared Leia, he is still torn. Rey, I suppose as part of her Sue-hood, has no such conflictions and self-doubts. Luke cut himself off from the force for x years, but when he reconnects, he reconnects. The constant roadblock I encounter in all these arguments is people treating the force like it's the gym. "Luke stopped working out, his muscle should have turned to fat!" "Kylo Ren's put the most hours in, he should be swoll, bro!" "Rey doesn't have enough prep and training, does she even lift?!" It's like people listened to Luke instead of Yoda in those ESB scenes. "Moving stones is one thing, but this ship is too big and I'm a newb!" "No, idiot, it's that you don't believe you can." "Hmm...nah. I'm maxed out, dawg." Riiiiiiight. So if all you need to do is believe and you don't need training then what was the point of thousands of years of younglings? What was the point of starting training early in life, generally speaking? What was the point of all that additional context Yoda mentioned and did? For example, why put Luke through physical training and meditations? According to you training is useless. It's simply a matter of belief alone. Well then Anakin should've won ALL THE TIME. Because if you pay attention to the context of the prequels, Anakin never doubted himself. So please explain to me why he failed so much... Yes... there is a reason I tied it to the PT. Hint: the mythos that the prequels established is very relevant to the question. Well first of all, I only recall Anakin and ObiWan dueling against each other once. But to answer your question, Anakin might have been stronger but he was less experienced. Which only speaks to my point - power, belief, and confidence are not enough alone. The mythos has established that training and experience considerably count for something. But not according to the (Disney) Sequel Trilogy.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 5, 2018 3:17:11 GMT
Kylo Ren is conflicted between the light side and dark side of the force, as well as his fear that he'll never live up to his grandfather. Killing his dad was supposed to solve this, but as we saw when he spared Leia, he is still torn. Rey, I suppose as part of her Sue-hood, has no such conflictions and self-doubts. Luke cut himself off from the force for x years, but when he reconnects, he reconnects. The constant roadblock I encounter in all these arguments is people treating the force like it's the gym. "Luke stopped working out, his muscle should have turned to fat!" "Kylo Ren's put the most hours in, he should be swoll, bro!" "Rey doesn't have enough prep and training, does she even lift?!" It's like people listened to Luke instead of Yoda in those ESB scenes. "Moving stones is one thing, but this ship is too big and I'm a newb!" "No, idiot, it's that you don't believe you can." "Hmm...nah. I'm maxed out, dawg." Riiiiiiight. So if all you need to do is believe and you don't need training then what was the point of thousands of years of younglings? What was the point of starting training early in life, generally speaking? What was the point of all that additional context Yoda mentioned and did? For example, why put Luke through physical training and meditations?
According to you training is useless. It's simply a matter of belief alone. Well then Anakin should've won ALL THE TIME. Because if you pay attention to the context of the prequels, Anakin never doubted himself.
So please explain to me why he failed so much...The point of getting younglings so early was to get them before they developed attachments. I'm honestly shocked you didn't get that. And even the physical training isn't about the physicality, but about learning to rely on the force over your body. "Run, yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the force". "Luminous beings are we, not this prude matter". Luke, a guy who didn't even know what the force was when we first meet him and continues to lack faith in it and apply practicality to everything in ESB, would need to learn these things. Anakin did have doubts following the death of his mother, where he began to feel he was being held back by Obi-Wan - thus not as strong as he could or should be. Qui-Gon, a Jedi master, also also lost to Maul, an apprentice. once he started to have self-doubt (you can see fear in his face right before Maul defeats him). Well first of all, I only recall Anakin and ObiWan dueling against each other once. But to answer your question, Anakin might have been stronger but he was less experienced. Which only speaks to my point - power, belief, and confidence are not enough alone. The mythos has established that training and experience considerably count for something. But not according to the (Disney) Sequel Trilogy.ANH? And I'm not sure I agree with your math, there. Anakin had just killed countless Jedi in ROTS (after downloading the dark side), while Obi-Wan had been in a grand total of 4 lightsaber duels. Thus Anakin bests him on duel experience as well. Same with ANH, where he'd been in war for 20 years while Obi-Wan was chilling in a hut. And even disregarding that, that doesn't explain why Dooku can easily defeat Obi-Wan but lose to the less experienced Anakin.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 5, 2018 11:27:42 GMT
"Luminous beings are we, not this prude matter". lol, prude matters aside, I'm getting a feel why it always seems we are watching entirely different Star wars movies.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 5, 2018 17:26:42 GMT
Riiiiiiight. So if all you need to do is believe and you don't need training then what was the point of thousands of years of younglings? What was the point of starting training early in life, generally speaking? What was the point of all that additional context Yoda mentioned and did? For example, why put Luke through physical training and meditations?
According to you training is useless. It's simply a matter of belief alone. Well then Anakin should've won ALL THE TIME. Because if you pay attention to the context of the prequels, Anakin never doubted himself.
So please explain to me why he failed so much...The point of getting younglings so early was to get them before they developed attachments. I'm honestly shocked you didn't get that. It is interesting how you take half of "the big picture", use those truths to build your entire argument but ignore the other half, or invalidate it. You have to take everything into consideration. And it all should harmonize. Yes it's true younglings were taken early to prevent forming attachments. But what you're ignoring is that it's also true that they were taken early to start training and gain experience with proper guidance. If the only reason that they were taken early was to prevent forming attachments then they would just spend their entire childhood being temple servants. The Jedi were big on not falling behind or rushing ahead in the education of the Force. For instance, only Jedi Knights who had a Master level ranking had free access to the knowledge of the Jedi holocron vaults. So if the Jedi felt training at the youngling age wasn't necessary or it was too much for them, they never would've allowed it. They would've likely just gave them some very basic studies and menial duties around the temple. It's actually about both the physicality and the channeling of the Force to greater extents and greater feats in the process. It's similar to chi in the martial arts. To be truly successful you can't have one without the other. The more in harmony both are the more successful you can be. So the physicality is still part of it. And experience and training was needed for Luke to get that, which is why Yoda put him through it. That's more frustration than doubt. Definitely more frustration. Anakin is totally confident and believes in his abilities and his connection to the Force. And that's why he resented anything from ObiWan that made him feel like his confidence and progress was being stifled. That's not doubt. The only genuine doubt Anakin experiences comes much later in ROTS, and that is a doubt in the Lightside. That leads to his seduction into becoming Darth Vader. Right before that happened QuiGon spent the pause in battle meditating and strengthening his connection to the Force. So I saw this example as not so much as QuiGon having self doubt. It was more a sense of confusion. Here was fighting an opponent whose fighting style he had never encountered before (except the brief duel on Tattooine). It was the first time the Jedi had encountered the Sith in a thousand years, and Maul was progressively throwing more advanced dueling tactics at him; all of which he (nor any Jedi) had ever seen before. They were a thousand years removed from it. So it was as if they never encountered it before. And this is another example of how the first 2 trilogies always made experience a relevant factor. The Disney trilogy does not. Well, I don't know how you consider slaughtering younglings as dueling experience? But then he did duel against padawans and a few Jedi in the temple. But then you also have to consider that the people Anakin dueled against were also trying to fend off blaster fire at the same time. As for ObiWan's 4 lightsaber battles, that's all we saw in the episodic movies onscreen. But as the CWAS entails, ObiWan had much more experience using his lightsaber than that. Not to mention while Anakin was still pod racing ObiWan likely encountered occasional situations where he had to use his lightsaber. The Jedi were like police, and the galaxy is full of bounty hunters and underworld criminals who are nothing to sneeze at. [/span] ANH, where he'd been in war for 20 years while Obi-Wan was chilling in a hut. And even disregarding that, that doesn't explain why Dooku can easily defeat Obi-Wan but lose to the less experienced Anakin.[/quote][/quote] Overconfidence on Dooku's part. Remember line that Anakin told him: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met." But Dooku scoffed at him by replying "Good! Twice the pride, double the fall." He mistook Anakin's statement of confidence and self awareness as overconfidence; when in fact Dooku was the one who was overconfident about the suggestion that Anakin's abilities had improved. If you've ever seen any of the CWAS duels between those two then you know Dooku had an established history of getting the better of Anakin, overwhelming him and rubbing his face in it. He constantly mocked Anakin's abilities.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 5, 2018 22:47:31 GMT
lol, prude matters aside, I'm getting a feel why it always seems we are watching entirely different Star wars movies. Man, even autocorrect hates The Last Jedi.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 6, 2018 1:12:45 GMT
It is interesting how you take half of "the big picture", use those truths to build your entire argument but ignore the other half, or invalidate it. You have to take everything into consideration. And it all should harmonize.
Yes it's true younglings were taken early to prevent forming attachments. But what you're ignoring is that it's also true that they were taken early to start training and gain experience with proper guidance. If the only reason that they were taken early was to prevent forming attachments then they would just spend their entire childhood being temple servants. The Jedi were big on not falling behind or rushing ahead in the education of the Force. For instance, only Jedi Knights who had a Master level ranking had free access to the knowledge of the Jedi holocron vaults. So if the Jedi felt training at the youngling age wasn't necessary or it was too much for them, they never would've allowed it. They would've likely just gave them some very basic studies and menial duties around the temple.I'm only going off of what Star Wars tells me. Little kids are impressionable, so I suppose they wouldn't just have them sweeping temple floors with hormones and the dark side tempting them, sure. By age 13, these kids are seen as already past due to be padawans with masters, which means field work. Let me ask you this, if what you say was the case, then why did Yoda and Obi-Wan not bother training Luke until he was 19? And if Leia was their ace in the hole, why'd she receive no training period? It's my understanding that they decided this whole "attachment" thing was pointless, and simply chose to train Luke when Luke was ready. But surely, by your rationale, they'd be training both of them from babyhood. Yoda could have one, Obi the other. By ANH, with 19 years of pure practice and training, they'd be force rock stars...right? Seems awfully risky to throw some farmboy with 20 minutes-1 hour of training with Obi-Wan and 2-3 days of training with Yoda up against two Sith Lords, one of whom has "the highest known midichlorian count in galactic history". Even more inconceivable that Vader, with 36 years of experience, would lose to this novice punk. It's actually about both the physicality and the channeling of the Force to greater extents and greater feats in the process. It's similar to chi in the martial arts. To be truly successful you can't have one without the other. The more in harmony both are the more successful you can be. So the physicality is still part of it. And experience and training was needed for Luke to get that, which is why Yoda put him through it.Okay, well, my Yoda misquotes didn't mention chi. "To be truly successful you can't have one without the other" seems to directly contradict the crude matter line, in particular. That's more frustration than doubt. Definitely more frustration. Anakin is totally confident and believes in his abilities and his connection to the Force. And that's why he resented anything from ObiWan that made him feel like his confidence and progress was being stifled. That's not doubt.
The only genuine doubt Anakin experiences comes much later in ROTS, and that is a doubt in the Lightside. That leads to his seduction into becoming Darth Vader.It's both...to use your style of argument. If he thinks he's being stifled, then he thinks he's stifled. Not of his own doing, but stifled none the less. His mother's death proved a huge culture shock to his current power and what Obi-Wan is teaching him, paving the way for him to seek greater power in the dark side. Right before that happened QuiGon spent the pause in battle meditating and strengthening his connection to the Force. So I saw this example as not so much as QuiGon having self doubt. It was more a sense of confusion. Here was fighting an opponent whose fighting style he had never encountered before (except the brief duel on Tattooine). It was the first time the Jedi had encountered the Sith in a thousand years, and Maul was progressively throwing more advanced dueling tactics at him; all of which he (nor any Jedi) had ever seen before. They were a thousand years removed from it. So it was as if they never encountered it before.All of which still paints a picture of Qui-Gon losing confidence in his ability to defeat the Sith Lord. If Maul is the first Sith they've encountered in a thousand years, then Maul probably has as much experience dueling Jedi as Qui-Gon has vice versa (though I'm sure some plothole filling EU books find Maul killing Jedi by the dozens pre-TPM, even though that would in theory raise awareness that there are Sith about). This again raises the experience question. Qui-Gon, an older and wizened master, should be able to still take down the young Sith apprentice before Maul is able to get the upper hand. Well, I don't know how you consider slaughtering younglings as dueling experience? I don't. But then he did duel against padawans and a few Jedi in the temple.
Clearly what I was referring to. But then you also have to consider that the people Anakin dueled against were also trying to fend off blaster fire at the same time.True. As for ObiWan's 4 lightsaber battles, that's all we saw in the episodic movies onscreen. But as the CWAS entails, ObiWan had much more experience using his lightsaber than that. Not to mention while Anakin was still pod racing ObiWan likely encountered occasional situations where he had to use his lightsaber. The Jedi were like police, and the galaxy is full of bounty hunters and underworld criminals who are nothing to sneeze at.The CWAS came after ROTS was already made. If Disney did a TV show called "Rey's Whacky Jakku Adventures" and introduced a Jedi master named Reticus Conto that trained her every day, then gave her force amnesia, would we all be good? Bounty hunters and underworld criminals don't use lightsabers...by your training and experience logic, blocking blaster fire shouldn't count toward dueling skills, right? Overconfidence on Dooku's part. Remember line that Anakin told him: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met." But Dooku scoffed at him by replying "Good! Twice the pride, double the fall." He mistook Anakin's statement of confidence and self awareness as overconfidence; when in fact Dooku was the one who was overconfident about the suggestion that Anakin's abilities had improved. If you've ever seen any of the CWAS duels between those two then you know Dooku had an established history of getting the better of Anakin, overwhelming him and rubbing his face in it. He constantly mocked Anakin's abilities.I do like how overconfidence is the reoccurring undoing of dark side users, Snoke included. But again, it's how easily Dooku takes out Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan lasts 30 seconds in their first fight, and 40 seconds in their second. Compare to Mustafar where he's holding off Anakin for 11 minutes, of which Anakin only gets overconfident and screws up at the very end.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 9, 2018 13:57:01 GMT
I definitely take issue with how they handled Snoke being killed. But to your point (generally speaking) I totally agree with you. Overconfidence being a weakness of the Darkside is a common denominator. Finally, we agree on something.
That does seem quite contradictory on the surface. But one factor that may have allowed for ObiWan's success (and ability to keep the duel going that long) is that ObiWan was Anakin's lifelong master and often fought beside him. So ObiWan trained Anakin in some of his tactics. And ObiWan knows most (if not all) of Anakin's moves and powers.
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