|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 2, 2018 19:53:05 GMT
Does Rey need training?
> Rey goes through the entire film TFA untrained but competing and easily defeating trained Force user Kylo whenever she uses the Force against him. (An onscreen narrative first). With only Snoke being a greater adversary the implication is that Rey doesn't need training.
> Leia sent Rey to find Luke at the end of TFA. The implication is that one of Leia's motives could be for Luke to train her.
> Forum arguments emerge that Rey does need training because she needs guidance to learn control. She needs to be taught to differentiate between the Darkside and the Light. Implication: training needed.
> Rey arrived on Achto. She seeks training from Luke. Luke rebuffs her. Luke gives in and gives Rey a (as in one) lesson. Implication: tie/push
> Virtually nothing in Luke's lesson furthers Rey's development in the Force. Nothing she wouldn't have discovered or done herself anyway. Luke warns her about following a call from the Darkside. But later Rey followed it anyway, which led her to a Force vision in an underwater cave. Implication: no training needed.
> The rest of the time on Achto Rey trained herself. In fact Rey does more instill guidance to Luke. Implication: no training needed.
> Master Yoda shows up to give Luke "a pep talk". He approves of Luke burning the last of the Jedi scrolls on education in the Force. The master who taught Jedi for 900 years tells Luke that Rey doesn't need them or any training! Implication: Rey needs no training.
> A brief scene later depicts Rey storing the Jedi manuals Luke and Yoda were burning (or attempting to) in a secret compartment on the Millennium Falcon. So apparently Master Yoda was absolutely wrong! Rey does need further training. (She obviously knows more than Yoda). The only one qualified to train Rey is herself.
Implication: Rey doesn't need training. She is so great a master that she can only teach herself. She always has been.
|
|
|
|
Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 2, 2018 19:56:16 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 2, 2018 20:07:06 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Feb 3, 2018 12:15:56 GMT
Does Rey need training? > Master Yoda shows up to give Luke "a pep talk". He approves of Luke burning the last of the Jedi scrolls on education in the Force. The master who taught Jedi for 900 years tells Luke that Rey doesn't need them or any training! Implication: Rey needs no training. > A brief scene later depicts Rey storing the Jedi manuals Luke and Yoda were burning (or attempting to) in a secret compartment on the Millennium Falcon. So apparently Master Yoda was absolutely wrong! Rey does need further training. (She obviously knows more than Yoda). The only one qualified to train Rey is herself. Implication: Rey doesn't need training. She is so great a master that she can only teach herself. She always has been. The Yoda line to Luke is a intentional mislead I think, he says there is nothing within the temple that Rey does not already possess, showing us later she has the books is to let us know Yoda knew Rey took the books and the temple held no knowledge and so could be destroyed, everything else is spot on though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 3, 2018 12:18:19 GMT
Yes.
Otherwise it's lazy pandering.
|
|
|
|
Post by azzajones on Feb 3, 2018 23:18:13 GMT
Ah the new Star Wars, where force sensitives can simply download the force and unlock these abilities.
Training be damned!
|
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 4, 2018 0:58:56 GMT
Does Rey need training? > Master Yoda shows up to give Luke "a pep talk". He approves of Luke burning the last of the Jedi scrolls on education in the Force. The master who taught Jedi for 900 years tells Luke that Rey doesn't need them or any training! Implication: Rey needs no training. > A brief scene later depicts Rey storing the Jedi manuals Luke and Yoda were burning (or attempting to) in a secret compartment on the Millennium Falcon. So apparently Master Yoda was absolutely wrong! Rey does need further training. (She obviously knows more than Yoda). The only one qualified to train Rey is herself. Implication: Rey doesn't need training. She is so great a master that she can only teach herself. She always has been. The Yoda line to Luke is a intentional mislead I think, he says there is nothing within the temple that Rey does not already possess, showing us later she has the books is to let us know Yoda knew Rey took the books and the temple held no knowledge and so could be destroyed,
Wow, nice catch. So I guess she'll be able to use them between films to train herself...kind of like Luke did in between ESB and ROTJ when he went from bumbling failure to able to hold his own against Darth Vader with ease. |
|
|
|
Post by simplemoviecommenter on Feb 4, 2018 1:23:44 GMT
The Yoda line to Luke is a intentional mislead I think, he says there is nothing within the temple that Rey does not already possess, showing us later she has the books is to let us know Yoda knew Rey took the books and the temple held no knowledge and so could be destroyed,
Wow, nice catch. So I guess she'll be able to use them between films to train herself...kind of like Luke did in between ESB and ROTJ when he went from bumbling failure to able to hold his own against Darth Vader with ease. What are you talking about? Luke did not train himself between ESB and ROTJ. He went back to training with Yoda for 6 months. He got better at being a Jedi. Vader by ROTJ was full of conflict. And Luke only won a physical victory by failing to resist the Dark Side and nearly killed his dad whom he wanted to save. |
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 4, 2018 1:38:40 GMT
Wow, nice catch. So I guess she'll be able to use them between films to train herself...kind of like Luke did in between ESB and ROTJ when he went from bumbling failure to able to hold his own against Darth Vader with ease. What are you talking about? Luke did not train himself between ESB and ROTJ. He went back to training with Yoda for 6 months. He got better at being a Jedi. Vader by ROTJ was full of conflict. And Luke only won a physical victory by failing to resist the Dark Side and nearly killed his dad whom he wanted to save. No he didn't. And no he didn't. As I've long suspected, the people who hate how the force is portrayed in the ST are the ones who don't pay much attention to the OT. Oh, and I just remembered that in Shadows of the Empire, Luke teaches himself to complete the training...through Obi-Wan's notes. But Rey teaching herself through Jedi scrolls, eew. |
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 4, 2018 6:54:27 GMT
What are you talking about? Luke did not train himself between ESB and ROTJ. He went back to training with Yoda for 6 months. He got better at being a Jedi. Vader by ROTJ was full of conflict. And Luke only won a physical victory by failing to resist the Dark Side and nearly killed his dad whom he wanted to save. No he didn't. And no he didn't. As I've long suspected, the people who hate how the force is portrayed in the ST are the ones who don't pay much attention to the OT. Oh, and I just remembered that in Shadows of the Empire, Luke teaches himself to complete the training...through Obi-Wan's notes. But Rey teaching herself through Jedi scrolls, eew. The point is not whether some self training takes place or is beneficial. The point is that Rey's character implies that no training is necessary. Unless, of course, you arbitrarily decide you want to train yourself... because... ?? |
|
|
|
Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 4, 2018 8:00:37 GMT
What are you talking about? Luke did not train himself between ESB and ROTJ. He went back to training with Yoda for 6 months. He got better at being a Jedi. Vader by ROTJ was full of conflict. And Luke only won a physical victory by failing to resist the Dark Side and nearly killed his dad whom he wanted to save. No he didn't. And no he didn't. As I've long suspected, the people who hate how the force is portrayed in the ST are the ones who don't pay much attention to the OT.
I am afraid your conclusions do not flow from your premises, you are correct on one fact and yet use it to put together a straw-man and false cause fallacy. Yes, Luke evidently self trained between ANH/Empire and Empire/Jedi ("But I have learned so much" etc). He had years for that between films. So how does this correlate with Rey who "downloads" (film commentary) instead of learns the ways of the Force? All that within a few hours by using Master-level abilities she did not even know existed like mind tricks, lifting mountains of boulders, telekinesis, mind probing etc - and she immediately beats a Master Force user with it. Even more baffling: How does all this correlate with " as I've long suspected, the people who hate how the force is portrayed in the ST are the ones who don't pay much attention to the OT". Talk about self delusional confirmation bias against fact and rationale. |
|
|
|
Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 4, 2018 8:04:35 GMT
Yes. Otherwise it's lazy pandering. Pandering to what? |
|
|
|
Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 4, 2018 8:24:42 GMT
Does Rey need training? > Rey goes through the entire film TFA untrained but competing and easily defeating trained Force user Kylo whenever she uses the Force against him. (An onscreen narrative first). With only Snoke being a greater adversary the implication is that Rey doesn't need training. > Leia sent Rey to find Luke at the end of TFA. The implication is that one of Leia's motives could be for Luke to train her. > Forum arguments emerge that Rey does need training because she needs guidance to learn control. She needs to be taught to differentiate between the Darkside and the Light. Implication: training needed. > Rey arrived on Achto. She seeks training from Luke. Luke rebuffs her. Luke gives in and gives Rey a (as in one) lesson. Implication: tie/push > Virtually nothing in Luke's lesson furthers Rey's development in the Force. Nothing she wouldn't have discovered or done herself anyway. Luke warns her about following a call from the Darkside. But later Rey followed it anyway, which led her to a Force vision in an underwater cave. Implication: no training needed. > The rest of the time on Achto Rey trained herself. In fact Rey does more instill guidance to Luke. Implication: no training needed. > Master Yoda shows up to give Luke "a pep talk". He approves of Luke burning the last of the Jedi scrolls on education in the Force. The master who taught Jedi for 900 years tells Luke that Rey doesn't need them or any training! Implication: Rey needs no training. > A brief scene later depicts Rey storing the Jedi manuals Luke and Yoda were burning (or attempting to) in a secret compartment on the Millennium Falcon. So apparently Master Yoda was absolutely wrong! Rey does need further training. (She obviously knows more than Yoda). The only one qualified to train Rey is herself. Implication: Rey doesn't need training. She is so great a master that she can only teach herself. She always has been. The films try it to have it both ways. It's the hero's journey omitting the second act. Rey is written as a "God-Mode" Mary Sue character who wields any trained or untrained ability or skill (not just Force) she needs. Still, the films imply and maintain that she "needs a teacher" and some form of training. Btw, Yoda stated " that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess. Skywalker...". This is ambiguous, Yoda knows that Rey stole the holy texts from Luke and "possesses" them legally and figuratively, she does not own them yet in any sense. Whether she can become the new founder and master of a new Jedi order with only one (bad) training session, we will se in IX. But I have no doubt about that (cf Mary Sue). |
|
|
|
Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 4, 2018 16:32:56 GMT
No, because Gurl Power.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 4, 2018 22:37:31 GMT
Yes. Otherwise it's lazy pandering. Pandering to what? Disney Gurl power! |
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 5, 2018 1:20:58 GMT
No he didn't. And no he didn't. As I've long suspected, the people who hate how the force is portrayed in the ST are the ones who don't pay much attention to the OT. Oh, and I just remembered that in Shadows of the Empire, Luke teaches himself to complete the training...through Obi-Wan's notes. But Rey teaching herself through Jedi scrolls, eew. The point is not whether some self training takes place or is beneficial. The point is that Rey's character implies that no training is necessary. Unless, of course, you arbitrarily decide you want to train yourself... because... ?? Well, if self-training doesn't count as training. I mean, someone had to discover all this stuff on their own to teach others in the first place, no? And "some" is a bit of an understatement, in Luke's case. He goes from Little League practice in ESB to winning the World Series against Jackie Robinson in ROTJ all without any additional outside help. I conceded to you in other posts that they may have gone too far in a few places in TFA (mind tricking 007, namely), and I was admittedly iffy on that Yoda scene because I thought Yoda legitimately did burn those scrolls and say Rey didn't need help, but if she completes her training using them, I don't really see the problem since that's already established in the OT as doable. |
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Feb 7, 2018 17:02:11 GMT
Everybody needs training, it's the way one gets better. Unless of course you're female force user, because they're able to do stuff with the force no other male-force users was ever able to do even without training.
|
|
|
|
Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 7, 2018 22:02:06 GMT
Everybody needs training, it's the way one gets better. Unless of course you're female force user, because they're able to do stuff with the force no other male-force users was ever able to do even without training.  |
|
