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Post by thorshairspray on Feb 12, 2018 16:14:40 GMT
Whether something actually happened isn't relevant in the World of FLimmy. Just so we all know folks. We saw the same in the US, the Hate Crime Hysteria after Trump. Amazingly most of its turns out to be bullshit. Has hate crime really not increased of late? A cynic would think that it would suit your narrative to assert this. Alternatively I can say that, compared to the old board, I have not seen so much splenetic, continued, hated of Islam - at least as I have here from you, Cody, and your ilk.
I am not sure in what connection this comment is made. The figures I normally refer to are the two most widely used in the UK, including the National Crime Survey. A useful site is here:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-10-15
Since hate crime always exercises you so much, a detailed assessment of 2016-2017 can be found here
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/652136/hate-crime-1617-hosb1717.pdf
Where we read "The increase over the last year is thought to reflect both a genuine rise in hate crime around the time of the EU referendum and also due to ongoing improvements in crime recording by the police. "
Although it is just an opinion, my view is that the terms of the Brexit debate, and the final decision, has given the haters confidence to come out of the woodwork.
I hope that helps.
You will note that the above quote addresses the issue of better reporting strategies, admits, and allows for it. I didn't say, or mean to say, only due to Brexit, Thor. I would be sorry if this is what you understand, or my phrasing was off. But apart from better reporting swelling the figures, what else can you think of which was so profound, and which has happened from and over the same period? Won the referendum - or the hate crime level lol? You seem a bit confused and seem to be answering claims I have not made. All I said - as do many observers and commentators - was that hate crime, xenophobia and Islamophobia have, both anecdotally and statistically, risen noticeably from around the time of Brexit. I think the two events are associated. Now, yes, I know that correlation is not necessarily cause, but the fact is striking and most people accept that the UK is more divided now on nationalistic - or jingoistic - lines than for some years. If you suggest that I am claiming you are a Nazi, or racist because of the referendum result, then you will need to work much harder. It is interesting to see the range of progressive policies and social groupings covered in disputations which have so set you off on these boards of late though lol.. However, through your various comments you do come across as, unfortunately, rather Islamophobic. What have Asian voting patterns to do with views of hate crime of anyone which, (apart of course from those who find the present restrictions on intimidating and hateful speech irksome) is overwhelmingly that of disapproval? The level of non-sequiturs in this reply of yours says much more about you than your arguments. Ah well. We don't know. Because, as I keep telling you.... 1) It does not need to be reported to the police. 2) It doesn't need to be proven. 3) An increase in reporting does not mean an increase in crime. You can commit a "homophobic hate crime" even if you didn't know the target was gay. Any crime against a gay person can be a hate crime. What part of this do you not understand? But, as I've told you before, those figures don't just come from actual reports to the police of actual crimes. They also come from an online site where "hate crime" can be reported anonymously. Therefore I can now go and make up a ton of "hate crimes" and report them consequence free. Right, so explain now why an increase in reporting is the same as an increase in incidents? *sigh* You are presumably using "hate crime" figures as some kind of rebuttal to my OP. Otherwise why post them? I am pointing out that AT BEST 2400 people could be considered "emboldened" to attack people. That would be 2400 out of 17,400,000. Its a piss weak argument and you know it. "What me? Call you racist? No, no, no, no, you silly boy. What I'm going to do in the next sentence is imply you are a racist without actually saying it. Therefore I can maintain the fiction that exists in my own head that I don't do name calling. Its inconvenient you see, when I call you names because I tend to call people out for that and I wouldn't want to look like the hypocrite I actually am" Hmm, I don't know. What does the demographics of the Leave vote have to do with the reasons for the leave vote? Its a mystery. The point I was making is you wouldn't dream of calling BAME Leaver voters racist the way you are happy to call white leave voters racist. Tell me I'm wrong. My opinion of Islam is totally relevant here you guys! I'm totally not well poisoning in any way while moaning about non sequiturs. Because I'm totally not a hypocrite you guy!
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Post by thorshairspray on Feb 12, 2018 16:19:14 GMT
Flim Flam? Why do you keep lying about the "Worse than Brexit" thing? I didn't say that. I corrected you in the other thread yet here you are again quoting something I didn't say. One might think your argument is so weak you have to resort to lying. Oh yes my mistake, an inexact quote, apologies. What you actually said was ""The majority of Muslims in the UK don't come from the EU. They are from Pakistan, Somalia and Bangladesh. Brexit means nothing to this." Which clearly means nothing like 'worse than'. LOL LOLLOLOLOL Stupid or lying again? "Brexit means nothing to this." Clearly means that Brexit will have no affect on immigration levels from Pakistan. Since the assertion by Goz was that Brexit would curb Muslim immigration. So no, it means nothing like "worse than" because its not a comparative statement. The term "means nothing to " means "has no affect on." LOLQEDLOL
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 12, 2018 16:22:48 GMT
tpfkar Lol. Fighting the Germans was a fad, we spent centuries fighting the bloody French. I think we have a longer term perspective on the French military than the rest of the World that just see their abject failure in WWII and even that can be placed at the hands of the leaders, rather than the fighters. And yeah. I'm a huge fan of the US. I love giving Americans shite, but thats just the British way. As much as it isn't trendy to say, the US Military has kept the Western World safe for seven decades. Sure, it isn't entirely altruistic and you guys shafted us at the end of WWII, but Europeans need to recognise their reliance on American soldiers and shut up or step up themselves. I see Trump said recently "There is nothing that could happen to you that we won't be there to fight for you" and "We will come to your defence if anything should happen" Which is why I am pro American rather than Pro EU because I trust the Yanks more. Well, don't forget Vietnam. Which...uhm...isn't to say we didn't have our own problems over there, but the French didn't do so well. To be fair, you can only trust one side of the aisle. That side will come out en masse to support Great Britain, Israel, and, to lesser extents, Australia and Japan. But you can't trust the other side of the aisle. You could have as recently as Bill Clinton's presidency, but not now. The left has lost its mind. They consider you an enemy because you have too many white men in your country and you want to be British rather than European. That's okay, though. We Trumped them in 2016 and we will do so again in 2020 and even if the darkest of dark days shrouds American politics, those of us on the right have all the guns and are the ones willing to use them. Man, the shrill gushes in this thread. W's Duty
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 12, 2018 17:00:58 GMT
In which Thor doesn't know whether hate crime in the UK has increased LOL www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-vote-hate-crime-rise-100-per-cent-england-wales-police-figures-new-racism-eu-a7580516.html We don't know [about levels of hate crime]. Because, as I keep telling you.... 1) It does not need to be reported to the police. 2) It doesn't need to be proven. 3) An increase in reporting does not mean an increase in crime. Once again one has to ask who one ought to place most weight with concerning hate crime levels: a range of commentators, publications and official sources, or some guy on the net with his usual narrative? Especially one who admits that he 'doesn't know' apparently, since he is just as in the dark about what is going on as the rest of us? Others do. What I understand is that you now seem to have an issue with homophobic incidents, since this is twice you have, unbeckoned, brought it up... just one more minority for the list, I guess. And as I have told you before, I will take the consensus and government assessments over yours - but thanks anyway. Remember, we are not talking about a small change in statistics, but quite a jump. To assert that this was all down to 'better reporting', as you might have it, is a bit of a stretch - but I can see why it might serve a perceptual bias. And, to be blunt, it ought to be obvious that, if you really insist you (along, apparently with everyone else) "don't know"... then you could be wrong. 'Cos ... well, you just don't know. Duh. I merely quoted the official line, which admitted (and I accept) better reporting has to be factored in, and allowed for, when assessing the higher totals, which seems honest and reasonable. Of course, an increase in reporting is not an increase in crime. But then (even if you "don't know" anyway) it is reasonable to assume that a crime increase, especially a significant one over years, ought not just to be put down to more efficient reporting. I doubt whether this will help, and I am sure I will need to make such an obvious observation again to one who wished to play down, or write off, any suggestion of hate crime increases in the UK to serve a personal agenda, despite a consensus to the contrary from all sides of the political spectrum. Yes, you do. You are the one who opened here sarcastically suggesting that Brexit "was about hating foreigners" Thor, not I. I just replied by way of correction - so often needed in your hyperbolic threads- that the consensus is that there has been a change for the worse since the referendum, but I think the toxic atmosphere has encouraged haters, a reasonable thought and one far from your characteristic hyperbole. The referendum was not called to 'hate foreigners' and I'd suggest that neither of us think that. And as for the statistical level of hate crime, official or not: well, once again: you are the one who says he 'doesn't know'. ... As you have kindly pointed out before Thor, race and religion are not the same. I hope that helps. Do you not hate and fear Islam, then Thor? I simply use the only honest name I know for that. Sorry if it irks. Because generally speaking the old, less educated, northern-living and those who felt disenfranchised were the principal Brexiteers. That is not to say that they were not entitled to express an opinion of course, or that the suggestion is that they are all racists etc. However these groups do often share similar values and views on inclusion. Please quote where I have called white leavers in general 'racist', as opposed to just pointing out the anagonistic and polarising effects of the referendum amongst the county at large. Indeed; and you are welcome to it. But some of us recognise it for what it is.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 12, 2018 17:05:18 GMT
"Brexit means nothing to this." Clearly means that Brexit will have no affect on immigration levels from Pakistan. Since the assertion by Goz was that Brexit would curb Muslim immigration. So no, it means nothing like "worse than" because its not a comparative statement. The term "means nothing to " means "has no affect on." Fair enough; I will accept your explanation. Although in the light of your characteristic rhetoric, one can see how it could be read both ways.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 17:10:08 GMT
LOL, somebody thinks the "right" are the ones with all the guns in the U.S. Not all the guns, spanky. Just (more than) twice what the left has.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 12, 2018 17:14:44 GMT
LOL, somebody thinks the "right" are the ones with all the guns in the U.S. Not all the guns, spanky. Just (more than) twice what the left has. Does clinging on to your big, shiny, semi-automatic really make you feel safer and closer to the 'Prince of Peace', Winter?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 17:19:38 GMT
Not all the guns, spanky. Just (more than) twice what the left has. Does clinging on to your big shiny automatic make you feel safer and closer to the Prince of Peace, Winter? I don't own an automatic, Flim Flam.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 12, 2018 17:19:42 GMT
Not all the guns, spanky. Just (more than) twice what the left has. Does clinging on to your big, shiny, semi-automatic really make you feel safer and closer to the 'Prince of Peace', Winter? I prefer one of my bolt-actions so I can stop the Prince of Peace if he gets within 500 yards.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 17:20:33 GMT
Does clinging on to your big, shiny, semi-automatic really make you feel safer and closer to the 'Prince of Peace', Winter? I prefer one of my bolt-actions so I can stop the Prince of Peace if he gets within 500 yards. Lol, too late: he's omnispresent!
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 12, 2018 17:24:33 GMT
tpfkar Whats your take on the Memo stuff happening over there? A I see it, it appears to show collusion between the FBI, DNC and foreign actors? One thing you have to understand about American liberals is that they project constantly. Whatever they accuse you of, you can bet they are guilty of it. It's no different with the Russian collusion story or the claims of rigged elections. The more it unravels, the more we find out that it was Democrats who were the ones colluding and it it already an accepted fact that Democrats rigged their own primary and stole the nomination from Bernie Sanders. Libs are in denial, of course, and will laugh at you if you suggest it (just like they laughed when anyone had the guts to predict on tv shows that Trump was going to win the election), but you watch: some of the anti-Trump players are going to jail over this. It's only a matter of time and ensuing documentation release. Obama and Clinton herself will probably get off due to pure clout, but these FBI guys are going to go to prison for a long time. A couple of reasoning & reasonable blokes, you two. hair's breadth difference
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 12, 2018 17:29:55 GMT
I prefer one of my bolt-actions so I can stop the Prince of Peace if he gets within 500 yards. Lol, too late: he's omnispresent! So you're saying I can just keep on shooting the bastard? Well alright then!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 17:36:42 GMT
Lol, too late: he's omnispresent! So you're saying I can just keep on shooting the bastard? Well alright then! Sure. theoncomingstorm: God:
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Feb 12, 2018 17:37:34 GMT
Does clinging on to your big shiny automatic make you feel safer and closer to the Prince of Peace, Winter? I don't own an automatic, Flim Flam. I'm sure you already noticed he edited his post to say semi-automatic within seconds of you making your post. However, on a serious note for a second, an NFA license is really not too difficult to get as long as you're not a really shady character. I've had mine since they first became a thing in 1986. Unfortunately most NFA weapons are ridiculously expensive due to supply-and-demand (the supply will never increase as long as the NFA remains law). I've bought and eventually sold about a dozen NFA weapons over the last 30 years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 17:52:38 GMT
I don't own an automatic, Flim Flam. I'm sure you already noticed he edited his post to say semi-automatic within seconds of you making your post. Actually, I didn't. I should have. It wouldn't be the first time he edited the content of his post (thereby editing the meaning of his post) as I was replying to him. Now let's see if he follows typical suit and uses it as an argument against me. Whoa. Did you just talk to me like a fellow human being you actually have a shred of interest in talking to as opposed to the piece of shit fuckwit I usually am to you? I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I think you let your guard down for five seconds with me and I actually really appreciate it. I am not a gun collector like you. I own a 45 because I have some neighbors who are like real-life versions of Animal Kingdom except no where near as sexy and much more inbred. They were messing with us and I have a family to protect. They stopped messing with us the day I brought it home. Everyone else in my family, though, owns several firearms, some of which are big, fancy semi-automatics.
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Post by thorshairspray on Feb 12, 2018 21:58:20 GMT
FilmFlaneurOthers don't. Flim. Thats the point. As the quote you previously quoted said, although it was cute of you to leave unbolded the fact that it was an opinion. Reports are not always crimes. What part of that don'y you get? Oh grow up. Its called an example. Yes, I could be wrong. But since Hate Crime doesn't need to be proven, or even reported to the police...So could you . No Flim Flam, what I object to is the existing legislation that is base on the "perception" of the "Victim or anyone else" Thus if I call a back guy a useless wanker on Twitter, that can be labelled and recorded as a "hate crime" That is why the figures are bullshit. What constitutes a hate crime is also ever expanding, with Gender Identity and Misogyny added as specific types of hate crime and the police investigating "Offensive" comments Oh, thats a lovely dance you're doing, Flim Flam. Are you denying the sentiment that Brexit was fuelled by racism and xenophobia thrown at leave voters? Including MPs? Every time we argued against the EU, we were labelled. The first thing you do is bring up a pathetically weak hate crime argument. I've shown you how statistically weak your argument is. Accept it and move on. Good one. But we can all read what you said. It doesn't. What bothers me about the term is the conflation between race and religion that allows Islam to be shielded from criticism. No other religion has this liberal defence.There is no Jewdaiophobia. No Hinduphobia. Which is why Muslim reformers and ex Muslims on't like the term being used. But they are the wrong type of minority for people like you to listen to. So the working class are racist. Got it. Your first instinct was to respond to my claim that Brexit wasn't about hating foreign people was to try to disprove it with hate crime stats. Who exactly do you think you are fooling? And I know you won't SAY I'm a racist, you'll simply imply it. Just as you implied I'm homophobic above. I don't like an idea. What a bad person I am.
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Post by thorshairspray on Feb 12, 2018 22:06:50 GMT
"Brexit means nothing to this." Clearly means that Brexit will have no affect on immigration levels from Pakistan. Since the assertion by Goz was that Brexit would curb Muslim immigration. So no, it means nothing like "worse than" because its not a comparative statement. The term "means nothing to " means "has no affect on." Fair enough; I will accept your explanation. Although in the light of your characteristic rhetoric, one can see how it could be read both ways. Did you mean "Sorry I have repeatedly lied about you by making up a false quote and attributing it to you in two different threads?" You didn't just misunderstand my point, which is entirely forgivable, you made up some words and attributed them to me. But, I'm not even buying the "I misunderstood line." No person with any reasonable grasp of English would take "means nothing to" to mean "Worse than" You're reaching Ada levels here Flim Flam and neatly demonstrating why I changed your name. Because what you just said was deceptive nonsense.
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Post by phludowin on Feb 12, 2018 22:41:15 GMT
Whoops... Correcting orthographic or grammatical mistakes in quotes and adding a [sic] was also something the poster formerly known as Ada Lovelace was known for. Apparently she make quite an impact. Posters adopting her style, me remembering it... I wonder if we should invite her back.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Feb 12, 2018 23:03:33 GMT
Flim Flam? Why do you keep lying about the "Worse than Brexit" thing? I didn't say that. I corrected you in the other thread yet here you are again quoting something I didn't say. One might think your argument is so weak you have to resort to lying. Oh yes my mistake, an inexact quote, apologies. What you actually said was ""The majority of Muslims in the UK don't come from the EU. They are from Pakistan, Somalia and Bangladesh. Brexit means nothing to this." Which clearly means nothing like 'worse than'. LOL Wait - Pakistan's not part of Europe?!? Are you sure? Isn't it the long country the looks like a boot that's below France? (is it too late to change my vote in the referendum?)
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 13, 2018 10:02:18 GMT
Does clinging on to your big shiny automatic make you feel safer and closer to the Prince of Peace, Winter? I don't own an automatic, Semi-automatic, then? Or hand guns? Bazooka? Flame thrower? After all, it is not the weapons of destruction which kill people, it is just the people using them.
Do they make you feel safer?
I forgive you.
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