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Post by simplemoviecommenter on Feb 20, 2018 22:14:48 GMT
I ask you, do you even realize what you are implying? What you are really saying?
Lets recap. Back in ROTJ, Luke acted impulsively, gave in to his fear and anger, and nearly killed his father. Therefore this makes it okay for Luke to have behaved the way he did in TLJ by giving in to his fear and impulse and deciding to kill Ben Solo the very first thing, cuz that's Luke's character flaw. Acting impulsively.
THIS WAS, LIKE, 30 FUCKING YEARS AGO IN-UNIVERSE. When he was younger! And not a full Jedi!
And at the same time defenders will also talk about how much they love how much Luke "changed", when apparently he did not change at all from ROTJ.
And this is the part defenders seem to forget. Luke then realized that he gave in to his fear and anger and threw away his lightsaber. He vowed he will never turn to the Dark Side and declared he was a Jedi. He learned this lesson. He overcame himself and took control.
And then around 20-30 years later, he fucking forgets this lesson with Ben Solo, his nephew, his sister's son, his best friend's son, who hasn't even DONE anything yet. This is supposed to be the same Luke who sensed the good and conflict in Darth fucking Vader. The same Luke who refused to give up on him and went out of his way to save him. The same Luke who'd rather die to the Emperor than turn to the Dark Side. His first thing to do was to kill him. Not to wake him up and talk. Not to stage some Jedi intervention. Not to find out where this Dark Side is coming from and find Snoke. Not to contact Han or even his sister LEIA who also has the Force and somehow never sensed it or told him about it? Even though she was apparently trained at some point? And why didn't he also sense any "conflict" or "call of the Light" inside Ben Solo which Kylo whined about in TFA?
Are you saying that Luke learned absolutely fucking nothing as a Jedi post-ROTJ? Are you saying Luke never progressed and grew any wiser as a Jedi in ALL that fucking time? HOW could he have committed the same goddamn amateur mistake AGAIN from 30 fucking years ago, when he LEARNED from it?
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Feb 20, 2018 23:22:11 GMT
Subversion.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 21, 2018 0:24:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 15:49:46 GMT
"Never progressed?" More like, "completely regressed." I don't even think ANH Luke would have done what TLJ Luke did. In fact, no, I'm sure he wouldn't. It was total garbage.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 21, 2018 22:43:21 GMT
"Never progressed?" More like, "completely regressed." I don't even think ANH Luke would have done what TLJ Luke did. In fact, no, I'm sure he wouldn't. It was total garbage. Like Han. Those bums took a selfless general and turned him back into a selfish smuggler. Why? Nostalgia and to create conflict with his son.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 21, 2018 23:24:00 GMT
I ask you, do you even realize what you are implying? What you are really saying? Lets recap. Back in ROTJ, Luke acted impulsively, gave in to his fear and anger, and nearly killed his father. Therefore this makes it okay for Luke to have behaved the way he did in TLJ by giving in to his fear and impulse and deciding to kill Ben Solo the very first thing, cuz that's Luke's character flaw. Acting impulsively. THIS WAS, LIKE, 30 FUCKING YEARS AGO IN-UNIVERSE. When he was younger! And not a full Jedi! And at the same time defenders will also talk about how much they love how much Luke "changed", when apparently he did not change at all from ROTJ. And this is the part defenders seem to forget. Luke then realized that he gave in to his fear and anger and threw away his lightsaber. He vowed he will never turn to the Dark Side and declared he was a Jedi. He learned this lesson. He overcame himself and took control. And then around 20-30 years later, he fucking forgets this lesson with Ben Solo, his nephew, his sister's son, his best friend's son, who hasn't even DONE anything yet. This is supposed to be the same Luke who sensed the good and conflict in Darth fucking Vader. The same Luke who refused to give up on him and went out of his way to save him. The same Luke who'd rather die to the Emperor than turn to the Dark Side. His first thing to do was to kill him. Not to wake him up and talk. Not to stage some Jedi intervention. Not to find out where this Dark Side is coming from and find Snoke. Not to contact Han or even his sister LEIA who also has the Force and somehow never sensed it or told him about it? Even though she was apparently trained at some point? And why didn't he also sense any "conflict" or "call of the Light" inside Ben Solo which Kylo whined about in TFA? Are you saying that Luke learned absolutely fucking nothing as a Jedi post-ROTJ? Are you saying Luke never progressed and grew any wiser as a Jedi in ALL that fucking time? HOW could he have committed the same goddamn amateur mistake AGAIN from 30 fucking years ago, when he LEARNED from it?
Wasn't Ben specifically sent to Luke because he had issues? Hmm... and didn't Leia basically send Han to his death by having him try to bring Ben home? ME: OMG... I think Leia's a Sith Lord! MACE: What?! A Sith Lord?! ME: Yes. The one we've been looking for.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Feb 22, 2018 4:25:35 GMT
I ask you, do you even realize what you are implying? What you are really saying? Lets recap. Back in ROTJ, Luke acted impulsively, gave in to his fear and anger, and nearly killed his father. Therefore this makes it okay for Luke to have behaved the way he did in TLJ by giving in to his fear and impulse and deciding to kill Ben Solo the very first thing, cuz that's Luke's character flaw. Acting impulsively. THIS WAS, LIKE, 30 FUCKING YEARS AGO IN-UNIVERSE. When he was younger! And not a full Jedi! And at the same time defenders will also talk about how much they love how much Luke "changed", when apparently he did not change at all from ROTJ. And this is the part defenders seem to forget. Luke then realized that he gave in to his fear and anger and threw away his lightsaber. He vowed he will never turn to the Dark Side and declared he was a Jedi. He learned this lesson. He overcame himself and took control.Indeed. Luke refused to strike down one of the most evil Sith Lords ever, Darth Vader, as he lay defenseless at his feet. Luke proved that he could use both the Light and the Dark Side without falling to the Dark Side. Throughout Episode 5 and 6, Luke toys with both. George Lucas also stated that Luke was the "first Jedi to use both sides of the Force." i.e. He uses the Dark Side to choke out Jabba's guards and to defeat Vader in Episode 6. The fact that Luke would think just because he senses the Dark Side in Kylo, he (Kylo) wouldn't be able to overcome that and tries to kill his padawan/nephew is laughable and ridiculous. Luke proved a Jedi can use both sides - even when being seduced by The Emperor and Vader at the same time. Luke still didn't fall even then. Rian just didn't think about anything when he wrote it. He didn't consider the mythology, the established facts of the past movies, and he gutted everything I cared about with the series.
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Post by darkpast on Feb 22, 2018 6:29:52 GMT
TLJ is horrible, George Lucas fully redeemed
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 15:42:05 GMT
I ask you, do you even realize what you are implying? What you are really saying? Lets recap. Back in ROTJ, Luke acted impulsively, gave in to his fear and anger, and nearly killed his father. Therefore this makes it okay for Luke to have behaved the way he did in TLJ by giving in to his fear and impulse and deciding to kill Ben Solo the very first thing, cuz that's Luke's character flaw. Acting impulsively. THIS WAS, LIKE, 30 FUCKING YEARS AGO IN-UNIVERSE. When he was younger! And not a full Jedi! And at the same time defenders will also talk about how much they love how much Luke "changed", when apparently he did not change at all from ROTJ. And this is the part defenders seem to forget. Luke then realized that he gave in to his fear and anger and threw away his lightsaber. He vowed he will never turn to the Dark Side and declared he was a Jedi. He learned this lesson. He overcame himself and took control. And then around 20-30 years later, he fucking forgets this lesson with Ben Solo, his nephew, his sister's son, his best friend's son, who hasn't even DONE anything yet. This is supposed to be the same Luke who sensed the good and conflict in Darth fucking Vader. The same Luke who refused to give up on him and went out of his way to save him. The same Luke who'd rather die to the Emperor than turn to the Dark Side. His first thing to do was to kill him. Not to wake him up and talk. Not to stage some Jedi intervention. Not to find out where this Dark Side is coming from and find Snoke. Not to contact Han or even his sister LEIA who also has the Force and somehow never sensed it or told him about it? Even though she was apparently trained at some point? And why didn't he also sense any "conflict" or "call of the Light" inside Ben Solo which Kylo whined about in TFA? Are you saying that Luke learned absolutely fucking nothing as a Jedi post-ROTJ? Are you saying Luke never progressed and grew any wiser as a Jedi in ALL that fucking time? HOW could he have committed the same goddamn amateur mistake AGAIN from 30 fucking years ago, when he LEARNED from it?
Wasn't Ben specifically sent to Luke because he had issues? Hmm... and didn't Leia basically send Han to his death by having him try to bring Ben home? ME: OMG... I think Leia's a Sith Lord! MACE: What?! A Sith Lord?! ME: Yes. The one who've been looking for. Revealing Leia to secretly be a Sith is what it would take for me to have any interest in the next film.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 26, 2018 10:34:25 GMT
TLJ is horrible, George Lucas fully redeemed to be fair, Force Awakens did that already, Last Jedi was just the icing on the redemption cake.
Darth Lucas shot first, but I consider him a veritable Force ghost now. Thanks Disney, Kathleen and JJ for that.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 27, 2018 4:24:38 GMT
I know when I learn a lesson and make a vow, I am never tempted or face relapsing ever again, ever. It really is that easy, especially when that temptation is coming from a supernatural force known for its temptingness. Man, I love being flawless.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 27, 2018 13:43:42 GMT
I know when I learn a lesson and make a vow, I am never tempted or face relapsing ever again, ever. It really is that easy, especially when that temptation is coming from a supernatural force known for its temptingness. Man, I love being flawless. dude it's bad writing. Punkt!
When you have the most altruistic hero of all time you cannot start out with him trying to murder his nephew in his sleep and being morally and physically inferior to a newbie. Yes, it can happen, but you need to propertly show and explain it as to how such character turn happened.
Also that he fails to prevent the deja-vu destruction of the Jedi temple and then instead of cleaning burnt-down house he flees to a "unfindable" island to pout-a-lot and die off instead of preventing the Empire to rise again. Show & explain or bad writing.
You defending a turd, a raccoon turd, Marvel size. Fool me once, turd on you...
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 27, 2018 14:41:48 GMT
I know when I learn a lesson and make a vow, I am never tempted or face relapsing ever again, ever. It really is that easy, especially when that temptation is coming from a supernatural force known for its temptingness. Man, I love being flawless. dude it's bad writing. Punkt!
When you have the most altruistic hero of all time you cannot start out with him trying to murder his nephew in his sleep and being morally and physically inferior to a newbie. Yes, it can happen, but you need to propertly show and explain it as to how such character turn happened.
Also that he fails to prevent the deja-vu destruction of the Jedi temple and then instead of cleaning burnt-down house he flees to a "unfindable" island to pout-a-lot and die off instead of preventing the Empire to rise again. Show & explain or bad writing.
Most altruistic hero of all time...? Luke isnt even the most altruistic member of the Skywalker family. He didn't want to fight the Empire until they BBQ'd his aunt and uncle, and spent the next two movies mainly trying to save his friends and dad. I'm not saying he's not a hero, but it wasn't quite a shock to me that a man literally descended from immaculate dark side conception momentarily considered doing a morally grey thing. This line might sting more for mcufan.
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Post by kleinreturns on Mar 8, 2018 21:46:52 GMT
Interesting.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Mar 9, 2018 2:43:19 GMT
dude it's bad writing. Punkt!
When you have the most altruistic hero of all time you cannot start out with him trying to murder his nephew in his sleep and being morally and physically inferior to a newbie. Yes, it can happen, but you need to propertly show and explain it as to how such character turn happened.
Also that he fails to prevent the deja-vu destruction of the Jedi temple and then instead of cleaning burnt-down house he flees to a "unfindable" island to pout-a-lot and die off instead of preventing the Empire to rise again. Show & explain or bad writing.
Most altruistic hero of all time...? Luke isnt even the most altruistic member of the Skywalker family. He didn't want to fight the Empire until they BBQ'd his aunt and uncle, and spent the next two movies mainly trying to save his friends and dad. I'm not saying he's not a hero, but it wasn't quite a shock to me that a man literally descended from immaculate dark side conception momentarily considered doing a morally grey thing. This line might sting more for mcufan. There was nothing morally gray about it! That's the problem. It was completely Dark. Here's what an equivalent would be: imagine the scene in TPM when the council is testing young Ani. Then we get to the part where Yoda closes his eyes and moans. Then he says "Mmmmm... clouded this boy's future is." Then Yoda immediately jumps up out of his chair, ignites his lightsaber, then poises himself to cut a death blow to Anakin!! Yeah! That's Disney SW. And some of us want to buy it and excuse it because of the nostalgia and OT motifs.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Mar 9, 2018 2:48:37 GMT
I completely understand why Mark Hamill never bought into his characterization in TLJ. I completely understand why he was so put off by it that he felt compelled to talk about it. In fact I respect him for it.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Mar 9, 2018 3:44:50 GMT
Most altruistic hero of all time...? Luke isnt even the most altruistic member of the Skywalker family. He didn't want to fight the Empire until they BBQ'd his aunt and uncle, and spent the next two movies mainly trying to save his friends and dad. I'm not saying he's not a hero, but it wasn't quite a shock to me that a man literally descended from immaculate dark side conception momentarily considered doing a morally grey thing. Not true. Luke kept asking Owen and Beru if he could go join the Rebellion and fight the Empire. They had a whole scene about it:
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 9, 2018 5:40:24 GMT
Most altruistic hero of all time...? Luke isnt even the most altruistic member of the Skywalker family. He didn't want to fight the Empire until they BBQ'd his aunt and uncle, and spent the next two movies mainly trying to save his friends and dad. I'm not saying he's not a hero, but it wasn't quite a shock to me that a man literally descended from immaculate dark side conception momentarily considered doing a morally grey thing. This line might sting more for mcufan. There was nothing morally gray about it! That's the problem. It was completely Dark. Here's what an equivalent would be: imagine the scene in TPM when the council is testing young Ani. Then we get to the part where Yoda closes his eyes and moans. Then he says "Mmmmm... clouded this boy's future is." Then Yoda immediately jumps up out of his chair, ignites his lightsaber, then poises himself to cut a death blow to Anakin!! Yeah! That's Disney SW. And some of us want to buy it and excuse it because of the nostalgia and OT motifs. Remind me again what happened to the wives and children of the sand people? And the Jedi younglings? And the Jedi in general? And the Republic? And the entire population of Alderan? Luke redeemed Vader, which is all fine and dandy, but the damage was already done. Here, Luke is on the brink of history repeating itself with Kylo. He sees the evil in this bastard (which had gone passed "clouded future" to "full-on psychotic fantasies" and who is also already very powerful) and could nip this whole trilogy in the bud before it even starts. He decided not to, which I don't think can be bolded enough. Mind you also that, again, Luke is descended from dark side force manipulation and more tempted by it, whereas his 800 year old teacher is not, so bonus points for doing the right thing. And what did Luke get fir it? Kylo killed his best friend, his students, and helped blow up four planets to Vader's one. When faced with with the same chance at redemption Vader got, Kylo ignored it and chose power and hate. The elephant in the room here is that Luke killing Kylo then would have been for the greater good.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Mar 9, 2018 5:48:34 GMT
Most altruistic hero of all time...? Luke isnt even the most altruistic member of the Skywalker family. He didn't want to fight the Empire until they BBQ'd his aunt and uncle, and spent the next two movies mainly trying to save his friends and dad. I'm not saying he's not a hero, but it wasn't quite a shock to me that a man literally descended from immaculate dark side conception momentarily considered doing a morally grey thing. Not true. Luke kept asking Owen and Beru if he could go join the Rebellion and fight the Empire. They had a whole scene about it: He's talking about the IMPERIAL Academy.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Mar 9, 2018 13:36:54 GMT
There was nothing morally gray about it! That's the problem. It was completely Dark. Here's what an equivalent would be: imagine the scene in TPM when the council is testing young Ani. Then we get to the part where Yoda closes his eyes and moans. Then he says "Mmmmm... clouded this boy's future is." Then Yoda immediately jumps up out of his chair, ignites his lightsaber, then poises himself to cut a death blow to Anakin!! Yeah! That's Disney SW. And some of us want to buy it and excuse it because of the nostalgia and OT motifs. Remind me again what happened to the wives and children of the sand people? And the Jedi younglings? And the Jedi in general? And the Republic? And the entire population of Alderan? Yes, all of that happened. But it happened because of several factors. Factors that should be considered. 1. Anakin had a choice at each moment that developed him into being a Sith. At each moment he made the wrong choice. If he had made the right choice in just one of those instances then perhaps he never becomes Darth Vader. 2. As Yoda said, Anakin's future was clouded. And when ObiWan called Anakin dangerous QuiGon corrected him saying that his future is uncertain. More evidence that Anakin didn't have a decided Darkside destiny. 3. Anakin had a lifelong friendship with Palpatine. It flew under the radar and was largely ignored by the Jedi until the later stages of the war. During all of that time Palpatine had influenced Anakin's thinking without anyone realizing that he was mentoring Anakin with a mental Darkside influence. Unfortunately no one was able to detect this happening. Is that how Jedi handle those kind of issues? Is that how Luke handled Vader when he sensed conflict with the Light in Vader? Mind you, according to TFA Kylo has had this same conflict going on all along. Remember the scene of Kylo praying to Vader's helmet? Is this how ObiWan chose to deal with Luke? He probably realized that there was a chance that Vader could sway him to the Darkside; and if that happened it could doom the Rebellion and permanently end it. Did he decide to kill Luke to prevent the chance of it? Did he decide when he saw the Tusken Raiders attacking Luke that it was "the will of the Force" and the Lightside to prevent him from becoming a Sith Lord? So just let him die? As far as Luke's vision about Kylo, I'll elaborate on that in my last point below. That sounds like fanfic theory. To my knowledge that is not canon. Here's where I address Luke's vision about Kylo being evil. Do you remember Anakin's dreams about the death of Padmé? It's likely that Palpatine was manipulating those dreams (or possibly causing Anakin to have them) since he knew about them. But the point is that Anakin was obsessed with preventing them from happening. The irony is that he caused them to be fulfilled by his actions. Instead of remaining in the Council chambers as instructed, he went to protect the one person that he thought had the power to prevent it. But if he hadn't then Palpatine may have died, Anakin likely isn't put into a situation where he chooses to attack and help kill a Jedi, and he probably doesn't become a Sith Lord. So the circumstances that cause Padmé's death would've never happened. So in the same manner, Luke's actions of moving to poise himself to kill Kylo may have actually been the catalyst to cause Kylo to decidedly take the path he did. (In fact that's somewhat implied in TLJ). Whereas if he never did it but used it as motivation to work harder with Kylo's Lightside development then perhaps Kylo's conflict with the Light wins over. And perhaps he remains Ben Solo instead of becoming Kylo Ren. And I still think it's decidedly uncharacteristic of Luke Skywalker.
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