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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 11:45:57 GMT
Though the CW doesn't have much luck getting the brightest and best. They're stuck with the dullest and the worst. Which is why we keep suffering with the train wreck that is Felicity. You are right there. I don't understand why there was such a drop between 'Smallville' and the 'Arrowverse' shows and an even bigger one in quality when you go back to 'Buffy' and 'Angel' which I heard were on the WB which become the CW Network and 'Smallville' had a lot of actors and actresses that went on to play bigger roles in other popular TV shows and some that are headlining movies now like Amy Adams and Evangeline Lilly who Beccy and I just watched last night in 'Ant Man and the Wasp.' The 'Arrowverse' doesn't get nearly as many actors as 'Smallville' got and it seemed they had better writers writing the episodes of 'Smallville' sometimes too. Did you know one of the main writers of 'Smallville' wrote 'Spider-Man 2?'
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 11:50:26 GMT
General Kenobi is right. Although sometimes the small networks get lucky and get some really good writers and actors for their shows when they are starting out and you only have to look at a show like 'Felicity' for example which was on the WB Network (the network that became the CW Network) and that was created by JJ Abrams and Matt Reeves who are now making 'Star Wars' and 'Batman' movies. Thou shalt not sayeth the name of the beast... Begone Evil One!!!! . . . . . . Oh you meant the other Felicity, the one people actually like, ok fair enough.
Heehee!! Yes. That 'Felicity' was a LOT better than the one we have in 'Arrow' except the whole part where went back in time to be with Noel who died instead of Ben was kinda silly and completely out of place on a show that was meant to be set in the real world and I don't get why they didn't just have her end up with Noel in the first place. Other than that I liked the show and Amy Jo Johnson was great as Julie and is so underrated as a singer and songwriter.
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Post by dazz on Nov 16, 2018 16:53:03 GMT
I just noticed my begone evil one post was post 100 on this thread HA!!! Only took me 2 weeks to notice and Deb actually pushing the total replies above 100 for my brain to twig, congrats to Deb for reply 100 also, better luck next time Beccy we know you love those milestones
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Post by dazz on Nov 16, 2018 17:08:01 GMT
Though the CW doesn't have much luck getting the brightest and best. They're stuck with the dullest and the worst. Which is why we keep suffering with the train wreck that is Felicity. You are right there. I don't understand why there was such a drop between 'Smallville' and the 'Arrowverse' shows and an even bigger one in quality when you go back to 'Buffy' and 'Angel' which I heard were on the WB which become the CW Network and 'Smallville' had a lot of actors and actresses that went on to play bigger roles in other popular TV shows and some that are headlining movies now like Amy Adams and Evangeline Lilly who Beccy and I just watched last night in 'Ant Man and the Wasp.' The 'Arrowverse' doesn't get nearly as many actors as 'Smallville' got and it seemed they had better writers writing the episodes of 'Smallville' sometimes too. Did you know one of the main writers of 'Smallville' wrote 'Spider-Man 2?' The WB I think was more influential back then I mean when you think those teen drama's were cultural touchstones of the 90's and early 00's the CW shows aren't that anymore, also somehow when WB and UPN merged to create The CW they actually created a lesser brand.
Also back then there were less places to work so quality was more important now however there is just so much content and so many places for people to work, the quality control just isn't there and also means actors don't need to just take a job to take a job as much, 133 new shows of all types debuted in 2003 this year so far it's 273 and we still have another 15 yet to debut atleast, and that's just debuting shows in US TV let alone ongoing shows or international programmes and such.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 16, 2018 17:53:34 GMT
Though the CW doesn't have much luck getting the brightest and best. They're stuck with the dullest and the worst. Which is why we keep suffering with the train wreck that is Felicity. You are right there. I don't understand why there was such a drop between 'Smallville' and the 'Arrowverse' shows and an even bigger one in quality when you go back to 'Buffy' and 'Angel' which I heard were on the WB which become the CW Network and 'Smallville' had a lot of actors and actresses that went on to play bigger roles in other popular TV shows and some that are headlining movies now like Amy Adams and Evangeline Lilly who Beccy and I just watched last night in 'Ant Man and the Wasp.' The 'Arrowverse' doesn't get nearly as many actors as 'Smallville' got and it seemed they had better writers writing the episodes of 'Smallville' sometimes too. Did you know one of the main writers of 'Smallville' wrote 'Spider-Man 2?' The thing about future stars cropping up on shows early into their stardom is that you don't know at the time who they're going to turn out to be; so given that the shows are still going, and even with Arrow being 7 years on still be relatively young in years when all is said and done, we might still be too close to objectively see what or who might come out of any of these shows as the next Amy Adams. I only just noticed in a very recent rewatch of Angel that Jeffery Dean Morgan appeared on Angel, in what could probably be described as essentially a bit role. I've never actually seen The Walking Dead or anything else he might have been in, but he's ubiquitous enough now that his name stuck out when I saw it in the guest star credits; and I recognized him immediately, in spite of him being 15 years younger. It's still strange seeing Amy Adams on Buffy, especially since it doesn't quite look like her, she's so young in that episode.
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Post by General Kenobi on Nov 17, 2018 14:56:21 GMT
I knew Amy Adams appeared in Smallville but I didn't know she had appeared in Buffy. Though I haven't watched that show since it went off the air, which was just before she hit it big. So that might have something to do with it.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 17, 2018 15:02:15 GMT
I knew Amy Adams appeared in Smallville but I didn't know she had appeared in Buffy. Though I haven't watched that show since it went off the air, which was just before she hit it big. So that might have something to do with it. Yeah, she played Tara's cousin in "Family," when her family comes to take her home, claiming she's part demon.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2018 12:02:52 GMT
You are right there. I don't understand why there was such a drop between 'Smallville' and the 'Arrowverse' shows and an even bigger one in quality when you go back to 'Buffy' and 'Angel' which I heard were on the WB which become the CW Network and 'Smallville' had a lot of actors and actresses that went on to play bigger roles in other popular TV shows and some that are headlining movies now like Amy Adams and Evangeline Lilly who Beccy and I just watched last night in 'Ant Man and the Wasp.' The 'Arrowverse' doesn't get nearly as many actors as 'Smallville' got and it seemed they had better writers writing the episodes of 'Smallville' sometimes too. Did you know one of the main writers of 'Smallville' wrote 'Spider-Man 2?' The WB I think was more influential back then I mean when you think those teen drama's were cultural touchstones of the 90's and early 00's the CW shows aren't that anymore, also somehow when WB and UPN merged to create The CW they actually created a lesser brand.
Also back then there were less places to work so quality was more important now however there is just so much content and so many places for people to work, the quality control just isn't there and also means actors don't need to just take a job to take a job as much, 133 new shows of all types debuted in 2003 this year so far it's 273 and we still have another 15 yet to debut atleast, and that's just debuting shows in US TV let alone ongoing shows or international programmes and such.
That's a good point and when TV shows like 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', 'Charmed', 'Dawson's Creek', 'Felicity', 'Sabrina the Teenage Witch' (didn't know that was on WB in America too) and 'Roswell' were on air they were very unique at the time and there wasn't anything else quite like them and you can clearly see the influence 'Dawson's Creek' had on 'One Tree Hill' for example and I actually remember reading 'One Tree Hill' was supposed to be a spin off of 'Dawson's Creek' with Chad Michael Murray's character who dated Jess but they changed his character. A lot of those shows were really popular here and were aired on free to air TV channels like 7 and 10 and aside from 'Smallville' which was fairly popular here too and 'Supernatural' especially during the earlier seasons there other shows haven't been as popular and shows like 'Arrow', 'The Flash', 'Supergirl' and 'DC's Legends of Tomorrow' owe a lot to 'Smallville' since 'Smallville' paved the way for them but I still prefer 'Smallville' over all the new superhero shows and feel there is a missing ingredient 'Smallville' had the 'Arrovwerse' shows were never able to replicate and many of my friends who loved 'Smallville' but aren't fans of the newer shows feel the same way.
I found an article you might be interested in with all the upcoming CW Network shows and and I was interested if you watched 'roswell' and what are your thoughts on the reboot? screenrant.com/cw-shows-coming-2019-possibilities/
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2018 12:15:15 GMT
You are right there. I don't understand why there was such a drop between 'Smallville' and the 'Arrowverse' shows and an even bigger one in quality when you go back to 'Buffy' and 'Angel' which I heard were on the WB which become the CW Network and 'Smallville' had a lot of actors and actresses that went on to play bigger roles in other popular TV shows and some that are headlining movies now like Amy Adams and Evangeline Lilly who Beccy and I just watched last night in 'Ant Man and the Wasp.' The 'Arrowverse' doesn't get nearly as many actors as 'Smallville' got and it seemed they had better writers writing the episodes of 'Smallville' sometimes too. Did you know one of the main writers of 'Smallville' wrote 'Spider-Man 2?' The thing about future stars cropping up on shows early into their stardom is that you don't know at the time who they're going to turn out to be; so given that the shows are still going, and even with Arrow being 7 years on still be relatively young in years when all is said and done, we might still be too close to objectively see what or who might come out of any of these shows as the next Amy Adams. I only just noticed in a very recent rewatch of Angel that Jeffery Dean Morgan appeared on Angel, in what could probably be described as essentially a bit role. I've never actually seen The Walking Dead or anything else he might have been in, but he's ubiquitous enough now that his name stuck out when I saw it in the guest star credits; and I recognized him immediately, in spite of him being 15 years younger. It's still strange seeing Amy Adams on Buffy, especially since it doesn't quite look like her, she's so young in that episode. No. We don't and we don't even know how big their roles are going to be and I mentioned Evangeline Lilly and she had a very small role in 'Smallville' and it was kinda a blink and you will miss it role and then Ben Affleck was in the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' movie and I didn't find that out until years later when he had become famous and magazines were saying about actors starting off in small roles and it is like Charlize Theron in 'Children of the Corn 3' which while we are talking about 'Buffy' also had Nicholas Brendon when he was younger. We recently re-watched the episode of 'Angel' with Jeffrey Dean Morgan in it and I completely forgot he appeared in 'Angel' and Josh Holloway was in the first episode and was barely recognisable especially with the vampire makeup. I re-watched the episode of 'Buffy' with Amy Adams in it too and I remember her in 'Cruel Intentions 2' earlier in her career and that was awful compared to the first and funny enough another one of the actresses in that movie played Eve on 'Angel.'
This is a little off topic but I am re-watching Season 4 of 'Angel' now and I am kinda confused over how long Cordelia was being possessed by Jasmine 'cause there were moments where she appeared to really be Cordelia and I am not up to the episode yet but I recall she had the dream of the Beast before he came and did Jasmine switch back and forth in control of Cordelia's body without Cordelia knowing before taking over completely?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Dec 28, 2018 15:05:36 GMT
The thing about future stars cropping up on shows early into their stardom is that you don't know at the time who they're going to turn out to be; so given that the shows are still going, and even with Arrow being 7 years on still be relatively young in years when all is said and done, we might still be too close to objectively see what or who might come out of any of these shows as the next Amy Adams. I only just noticed in a very recent rewatch of Angel that Jeffery Dean Morgan appeared on Angel, in what could probably be described as essentially a bit role. I've never actually seen The Walking Dead or anything else he might have been in, but he's ubiquitous enough now that his name stuck out when I saw it in the guest star credits; and I recognized him immediately, in spite of him being 15 years younger. It's still strange seeing Amy Adams on Buffy, especially since it doesn't quite look like her, she's so young in that episode. No. We don't and we don't even know how big their roles are going to be and I mentioned Evangeline Lilly and she had a very small role in 'Smallville' and it was kinda a blink and you will miss it role and then Ben Affleck was in the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' movie and I didn't find that out until years later when he had become famous and magazines were saying about actors starting off in small roles and it is like Charlize Theron in 'Children of the Corn 3' which while we are talking about 'Buffy' also had Nicholas Brendon when he was younger. We recently re-watched the episode of 'Angel' with Jeffrey Dean Morgan in it and I completely forgot he appeared in 'Angel' and Josh Holloway was in the first episode and was barely recognisable especially with the vampire makeup. I re-watched the episode of 'Buffy' with Amy Adams in it too and I remember her in 'Cruel Intentions 2' earlier in her career and that was awful compared to the first and funny enough another one of the actresses in that movie played Eve on 'Angel.'
This is a little off topic but I am re-watching Season 4 of 'Angel' now and I am kinda confused over how long Cordelia was being possessed by Jasmine 'cause there were moments where she appeared to really be Cordelia and I am not up to the episode yet but I recall she had the dream of the Beast before he came and did Jasmine switch back and forth in control of Cordelia's body without Cordelia knowing before taking over completely?
pretty much the moment Lorne helped her get her memory back it was what would become Jasmine in the driver's seat; and everything she said, everything she did "as Cordy" was an act.
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Post by General Kenobi on Dec 31, 2018 19:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 11:27:41 GMT
No. We don't and we don't even know how big their roles are going to be and I mentioned Evangeline Lilly and she had a very small role in 'Smallville' and it was kinda a blink and you will miss it role and then Ben Affleck was in the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' movie and I didn't find that out until years later when he had become famous and magazines were saying about actors starting off in small roles and it is like Charlize Theron in 'Children of the Corn 3' which while we are talking about 'Buffy' also had Nicholas Brendon when he was younger. We recently re-watched the episode of 'Angel' with Jeffrey Dean Morgan in it and I completely forgot he appeared in 'Angel' and Josh Holloway was in the first episode and was barely recognisable especially with the vampire makeup. I re-watched the episode of 'Buffy' with Amy Adams in it too and I remember her in 'Cruel Intentions 2' earlier in her career and that was awful compared to the first and funny enough another one of the actresses in that movie played Eve on 'Angel.'
This is a little off topic but I am re-watching Season 4 of 'Angel' now and I am kinda confused over how long Cordelia was being possessed by Jasmine 'cause there were moments where she appeared to really be Cordelia and I am not up to the episode yet but I recall she had the dream of the Beast before he came and did Jasmine switch back and forth in control of Cordelia's body without Cordelia knowing before taking over completely?
pretty much the moment Lorne helped her get her memory back it was what would become Jasmine in the driver's seat; and everything she said, everything she did "as Cordy" was an act. Thanks for letting me know. We watched the episodes and are up to the final season now and I am still disappointed over the way they wrote Cordelia off and it would have been better in my opinion if Season 4 had ended with Cordelia waking up and helping Angel and the team defeat Jasmine 'cause it would have given her a chance to get revenge on Jasmine for possessing her. I really thought that season would have ended with Cordelia waking up and doing that and I was surprised it didn't. I have heard rumours there was some type of falling out with Charisma and Joss and I am not sure if they are true or not but it would explain the way they got rid of her 'cause she was such a big part of the show and was billed as the second main star and they just wrote her off like she was never an important character.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 22, 2019 14:25:19 GMT
pretty much the moment Lorne helped her get her memory back it was what would become Jasmine in the driver's seat; and everything she said, everything she did "as Cordy" was an act. Thanks for letting me know. We watched the episodes and are up to the final season now and I am still disappointed over the way they wrote Cordelia off and it would have been better in my opinion if Season 4 had ended with Cordelia waking up and helping Angel and the team defeat Jasmine 'cause it would have given her a chance to get revenge on Jasmine for possessing her. I really thought that season would have ended with Cordelia waking up and doing that and I was surprised it didn't. I have heard rumours there was some type of falling out with Charisma and Joss and I am not sure if they are true or not but it would explain the way they got rid of her 'cause she was such a big part of the show and was billed as the second main star and they just wrote her off like she was never an important character. Those rumors are true, you can find videos on Youtube where Charisma has talked about that a little bit, but says they're on better terms now. The main reason she wasn't involved in the climax of the story/season is because Charisma was pregnant in real life; so she was either still showing at that point, or possibly had just had the baby and was on maternity leave, but either way it would have been hard for them (though definitely not impossible) to have her actively involved in the plot. But that is why she's in the coma, always laying down or propped up, with the bombs strapped around her in the season finale. It's also the decisive factor everything about that season; from the direction of the plot that season, to Charisma and Joss' falling out. Word has it that Joss has a very different vision for season 4, that would have had Cordelia, in fashion, as the big bad; and play out some long term story arch he had been planning. When Charisma found out she was pregnant, she didn't tell Joss and the other producers or writers right away, which she's said was because she was concerned how that would affect her role on the show. And when she finally did tell them, naturally a lot of the plans for the season had to be changed, especially on account of Joss' plans to make Cordelia the big bad, knowing that she'd be showing, they changed direction and brought about Jasmine, who could be played by someone else. Somewhere I've read an account, possibly directly from Joss, that Cordelia sleeping with Connor had still been part of the plan, but it was originally going to be later; and they had to move it up so they could do it before she started showing. And then accord Charisma, the whole thing contributed to the falling out between her and Joss, where they had been close before, or at least on good terms; and having to change all of these carefully laid plans at the last minute lead to some bitter feelings for a time on Joss' part. Also, going into season 5, they didn't bother telling Charisma that she wasn't coming back; and she learned it through a news report. I don't know how far you've gotten into season 5, so: When Cordelia does come back, Charisma had some reluctance, since she didn't want to do the episode just to be killed off; and she was very adamant that she'd only agree to come back if they guaranteed she not be killed off. And then of course, after they've agreed to all of this and she's signed the contract and they begin shooting, some writer or producer or someone comes to her trailer and tells her there's been a script change; and tada, she's being killed off - but, when she recounts this in the convention videos I've seen, she always qualifies that she was okay with the changes, because of how it was written, and that in typical Joss fashion it was written well enough to look past it. It's hard to say whether she genuinely felt that way it was dealt with and her character killed off was good enough to forgive them pulling a bait and switch; or if she's just saying that save face and not get back on Joss' bad side.... At the risk of contributing to gossip, the whole thing does make me wonder, considering the revelation that's since come to light by way of Joss' ex-wife about his alleged confession to her of having an affair with at least one actress from Buffy...
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Post by dazz on Jan 22, 2019 14:56:33 GMT
Thanks for letting me know. We watched the episodes and are up to the final season now and I am still disappointed over the way they wrote Cordelia off and it would have been better in my opinion if Season 4 had ended with Cordelia waking up and helping Angel and the team defeat Jasmine 'cause it would have given her a chance to get revenge on Jasmine for possessing her. I really thought that season would have ended with Cordelia waking up and doing that and I was surprised it didn't. I have heard rumours there was some type of falling out with Charisma and Joss and I am not sure if they are true or not but it would explain the way they got rid of her 'cause she was such a big part of the show and was billed as the second main star and they just wrote her off like she was never an important character. Those rumors are true, you can find videos on Youtube where Charisma has talked about that a little bit, but says they're on better terms now. The main reason she wasn't involved in the climax of the story/season is because Charisma was pregnant in real life; so she was either still showing at that point, or possibly had just had the baby and was on maternity leave, but either way it would have been hard for them (though definitely not impossible) to have her actively involved in the plot. But that is why she's in the coma, always laying down or propped up, with the bombs strapped around her in the season finale. It's also the decisive factor everything about that season; from the direction of the plot that season, to Charisma and Joss' falling out. Word has it that Joss has a very different vision for season 4, that would have had Cordelia, in fashion, as the big bad; and play out some long term story arch he had been planning. When Charisma found out she was pregnant, she didn't tell Joss and the other producers or writers right away, which she's said was because she was concerned how that would affect her role on the show. And when she finally did tell them, naturally a lot of the plans for the season had to be changed, especially on account of Joss' plans to make Cordelia the big bad, knowing that she'd be showing, they changed direction and brought about Jasmine, who could be played by someone else. Somewhere I've read an account, possibly directly from Joss, that Cordelia sleeping with Connor had still been part of the plan, but it was originally going to be later; and they had to move it up so they could do it before she started showing. And then accord Charisma, the whole thing contributed to the falling out between her and Joss, where they had been close before, or at least on good terms; and having to change all of these carefully laid plans at the last minute lead to some bitter feelings for a time on Joss' part. Also, going into season 5, they didn't bother telling Charisma that she wasn't coming back; and she learned it through a news report. I don't know how far you've gotten into season 5, so: When Cordelia does come back, Charisma had some reluctance, since she didn't want to do the episode just to be killed off; and she was very adamant that she'd only agree to come back if they guaranteed she not be killed off. And then of course, after they've agreed to all of this and she's signed the contract and they begin shooting, some writer or producer or someone comes to her trailer and tells her there's been a script change; and tada, she's being killed off - but, when she recounts this in the convention videos I've seen, she always qualifies that she was okay with the changes, because of how it was written, and that in typical Joss fashion it was written well enough to look past it. It's hard to say whether she genuinely felt that way it was dealt with and her character killed off was good enough to forgive them pulling a bait and switch; or if she's just saying that save face and not get back on Joss' bad side.... At the risk of contributing to gossip, the whole thing does make me wonder, considering the revelation that's since come to light by way of Joss' ex-wife about his alleged confession to her of having an affair with at least one actress from Buffy... Have to wonder had she told them earlier, how that may have altered the show, like how long did she hide it from them? presumably she would only be able to hide it for a few weeks to a couple of months before she began showing, depending on how far along she was when she found out, but you never know how/when that was in the process, like had she told them asap could Joss have decided fuck it we'll postpone the storyline till S5 we can have Cordy as a higher power guiding Angel through the series so we don't need to worry about her being pregnant, which if they did that just what would the big bad have been?
Personally I was never the biggest Cordy fan but I hated her performance in S4 specifically her being evil I just thought was god fucking awful all around, so I doubt I would have liked it even if Joss got to do it entirely as he wanted but yah never know.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 22, 2019 15:35:29 GMT
Have to wonder had she told them earlier, how that may have altered the show, like how long did she hide it from them? presumably she would only be able to hide it for a few weeks to a couple of months before she began showing, depending on how far along she was when she found out, but you never know how/when that was in the process, like had she told them asap could Joss have decided fuck it we'll postpone the storyline till S5 we can have Cordy as a higher power guiding Angel through the series so we don't need to worry about her being pregnant, which if they did that just what would the big bad have been?
Personally I was never the biggest Cordy fan but I hated her performance in S4 specifically her being evil I just thought was god fucking awful all around, so I doubt I would have liked it even if Joss got to do it entirely as he wanted but yah never know.
It's hard to say; I think Joss' plans had been in the works for a couple of seasons, so things like Cordy ascending at the end of season 3 played into that somehow. Some anecdotes I've read suggested that it may have been less a malevolent entity taking Cordelia over, like how it ultimately played out; and more being Cordelia herself, and for some reason she went bad or something. Maybe she would have become corrupted by power or something. I grew disenchanted with Cordelia about midway through season 3, mainly when they started pushing the crap of her and Angel falling in love. I hated that story; and if there's one good thing to come out of the cluster fuck of season 4, it's that it put the kibosh on that. Plus, it didn't make a ton of sense for Cordelia to need to become part demon in order to stem the pain caused by the visions, since Doyle was part demon and they were painful for him. I mean, it stands to reason that it was part of Jasmine's plot to take her over, etc., but seeing how, when they introduced the idea, they had planned to go in a different direction, it doesn't make sense. And they made what it meant for her to be "part demon" nonsensical and her powers completely inconsistent and arbitrary.
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Post by dazz on Jan 22, 2019 15:52:27 GMT
Have to wonder had she told them earlier, how that may have altered the show, like how long did she hide it from them? presumably she would only be able to hide it for a few weeks to a couple of months before she began showing, depending on how far along she was when she found out, but you never know how/when that was in the process, like had she told them asap could Joss have decided fuck it we'll postpone the storyline till S5 we can have Cordy as a higher power guiding Angel through the series so we don't need to worry about her being pregnant, which if they did that just what would the big bad have been?
Personally I was never the biggest Cordy fan but I hated her performance in S4 specifically her being evil I just thought was god fucking awful all around, so I doubt I would have liked it even if Joss got to do it entirely as he wanted but yah never know.
It's hard to say; I think Joss' plans had been in the works for a couple of seasons, so things like Cordy ascending at the end of season 3 played into that somehow. Some anecdotes I've read suggested that it may have been less a malevolent entity taking Cordelia over, like how it ultimately played out; and more being Cordelia herself, and for some reason she went bad or something. Maybe she would have become corrupted by power or something. I grew disenchanted with Cordelia about midway through season 3, mainly when they started pushing the crap of her and Angel falling in love. I hated that story; and if there's one good thing to come out of the cluster fuck of season 4, it's that it put the kibosh on that. Plus, it didn't make a ton of sense for Cordelia to need to become part demon in order to stem the pain caused by the visions, since Doyle was part demon and they were painful for him. I mean, it stands to reason that it was part of Jasmine's plot to take her over, etc., but seeing how, when they introduced the idea, they had planned to go in a different direction, it doesn't make sense. And they made what it meant for her to be "part demon" nonsensical and her powers completely inconsistent and arbitrary. The visions being painless and her ability to purge the energy of the hell dimension made sense atleast, her floating however didn't going back into the visions however I think could have if they did it more, but every power should have had a purpose, like the visions being painless is a way for Cordy to be protected not just from them but the effects if they ever needed to be used rather fast, such as Cordy has a vision of them being attacked and moments later it happens, if Cordy is still reeling from the vision it doesn't help anything to get it, her purging the energy allows her to assert a control and bond with Connor which Jasmine relied on, her being able to go back into the visions would have made sense if she used it more especially in events that were required to allow her ascension and such, but all that also only works if Cordy when she ascends then descends gets bodyjacked and that was the plan all along, if Cordy just goes bad the why she got all these powers is kind of odd.
With Joss's issue with Charisma in S4 now in my head do you think that's partly why he had Skip shit talk Cordy a little bit, in S3 she was a champion and respected for her willingness to die to further the mission and such, in S4 when Angel confronts him about Cordy/Jasmine he mocks the idea she was a champion iirc, do you think this may have had a little to do with Joss being pissed at her? As if Jasmine wasn't always the plan was what S3 Skip said intended to be true?
I find it interesting how certain scenes or dialogue can be interpreted different whne you know more of the behind the scenes, I said this before but I swear Dean calling Sam gassy in the ghost sickness ep of Supernatural was either Jensen having fun or the writers being meta about Jared and his ill timed farts, though I didn't find the one in Legends a few eps back all that clever, referencing the shows real expense issues doesn't make sense in regards to the team as it's stated in the show early on Gideon fabricates their food, clothes and what not, so how does the government get the bill, and who was paying for them for the previous 2 seasons in show?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 22, 2019 20:55:30 GMT
It's hard to say; I think Joss' plans had been in the works for a couple of seasons, so things like Cordy ascending at the end of season 3 played into that somehow. Some anecdotes I've read suggested that it may have been less a malevolent entity taking Cordelia over, like how it ultimately played out; and more being Cordelia herself, and for some reason she went bad or something. Maybe she would have become corrupted by power or something. I grew disenchanted with Cordelia about midway through season 3, mainly when they started pushing the crap of her and Angel falling in love. I hated that story; and if there's one good thing to come out of the cluster fuck of season 4, it's that it put the kibosh on that. Plus, it didn't make a ton of sense for Cordelia to need to become part demon in order to stem the pain caused by the visions, since Doyle was part demon and they were painful for him. I mean, it stands to reason that it was part of Jasmine's plot to take her over, etc., but seeing how, when they introduced the idea, they had planned to go in a different direction, it doesn't make sense. And they made what it meant for her to be "part demon" nonsensical and her powers completely inconsistent and arbitrary. The visions being painless and her ability to purge the energy of the hell dimension made sense atleast, her floating however didn't going back into the visions however I think could have if they did it more, but every power should have had a purpose, like the visions being painless is a way for Cordy to be protected not just from them but the effects if they ever needed to be used rather fast, such as Cordy has a vision of them being attacked and moments later it happens, if Cordy is still reeling from the vision it doesn't help anything to get it, her purging the energy allows her to assert a control and bond with Connor which Jasmine relied on, her being able to go back into the visions would have made sense if she used it more especially in events that were required to allow her ascension and such, but all that also only works if Cordy when she ascends then descends gets bodyjacked and that was the plan all along, if Cordy just goes bad the why she got all these powers is kind of odd.
With Joss's issue with Charisma in S4 now in my head do you think that's partly why he had Skip shit talk Cordy a little bit, in S3 she was a champion and respected for her willingness to die to further the mission and such, in S4 when Angel confronts him about Cordy/Jasmine he mocks the idea she was a champion iirc, do you think this may have had a little to do with Joss being pissed at her? As if Jasmine wasn't always the plan was what S3 Skip said intended to be true?
I find it interesting how certain scenes or dialogue can be interpreted different whne you know more of the behind the scenes, I said this before but I swear Dean calling Sam gassy in the ghost sickness ep of Supernatural was either Jensen having fun or the writers being meta about Jared and his ill timed farts, though I didn't find the one in Legends a few eps back all that clever, referencing the shows real expense issues doesn't make sense in regards to the team as it's stated in the show early on Gideon fabricates their food, clothes and what not, so how does the government get the bill, and who was paying for them for the previous 2 seasons in show?
What I mean by it not making sense, is that Doyle had the visions first, was part demon himself, but he still got headaches and thrashed around when they occurred. In the context of Cordelia being coaxed to consent to a process to "make her part demon," as part of a plan to lay the groundwork for Jasmine to hijack her body; then it makes sense if it turned out that a) the demon species Doyle belonged to didn't naturally possess the power to receive visions in the first place; and him having them was actually a symptom or the seed of Jasmine's early search for a host, that got passed on to Cordy before he died and b) if the pain and even the physical damage caused by the visions were actually designed intentionally by Jasmine or whomever, to eventually lay the groundwork to convince Cordelia or whomever to agree to a process that would let them keep the visions without the pain; with the fine print reading that in so doing they're surrendering their body for this other purpose. From there it gets a little murkier, in terms of the usefulness or nature of her powers; because part of depends on whether her visions were supposed to be natural in the first place or a precursor to Jasmine; or something Jasmine hijacked to weasel her way into a mortal body. Sure, it would be super useful to be able to go back into the visions; and now that you mention it, they definitely should have and could have done more with that. But there again, Doyle was part demon and didn't have that ability, so were the visions even a power of a Brachen demon? Was going back into a vision a power set Cordelia would get that Doyle didn't have? For that matter, why wouldn't Cordelia be made part Brachen demon, like Doyle, if that was natural power for them to have? I wouldn't say her being able to draw out the hell dimension spunk off Conner makes sense, because for one thing, how does that relate or have anything to do with her visions? And for another, what is that power an extension of and what would its use beyond helping Conner in that instance even be? I could maybe see it if the Jasmine parasite fed off that stuff and was drawn to other sources, but they never did anything else with that; so it was more a plot contrivance. And it's not like Conner stopped being a dick after that; I mean, she did that and then he still goes on to sink Angel to the bottom of the ocean and remains an angsty douche bag the rest of season 4. And I'm not sure she needed to glow to control Conner; the power of boners, especially at that age would have more than enough for her to be able to get him to do whatever she wanted. And there were a couple of instances showing Conner getting his engine revved up elsewhere; first with some girl he saved on the street, then later when Faith showed up, that it wouldn't have taken much. Cordy flying was clearly one of those moments of the writers saying, "how can we punctuate Cordelia being different now that she's 'part demon';" and someone responding, "Oh, I know, she gets a vision and it's so painless that no one realizes that she's having the vision and they think she's still talking about the last one." "Yeah, and she's floating." "Why?" "Why not?" "...Yeah, good point." What really annoys me with the whole "half demon" story is that they focus solely on her having powers, but there's no other physical manifestation of her as a demon. And nothing about her powers conventionally seem particularly "demon" like; with the exception of Lorne's ability to read futures. I'm not so sure they were talking smack about Charisma by having Skip put Cordelia down; I mean, the idea of her actually deserving to become a higher being seemed absurd in the first place, so it kind of made sense for Skip to mock it. But there again, what was the real direction then? What was the real purpose to have her ascend if not to bring back a hitchhiker? I have wondered about other jabs like that though; like during Restless when Willow is in the college play; and dream-Giles keeps talking about Willow stepping on everyone's lines, it's always made me wonder if that was a joke about Alyson Hannigan stepping on people's lines. How is it we're having a livelier discussion about Buffy and Angel on the Arrow board than any of the threads on the Buffy board....?
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Post by dazz on Jan 23, 2019 1:59:27 GMT
The visions being painless and her ability to purge the energy of the hell dimension made sense atleast, her floating however didn't going back into the visions however I think could have if they did it more, but every power should have had a purpose, like the visions being painless is a way for Cordy to be protected not just from them but the effects if they ever needed to be used rather fast, such as Cordy has a vision of them being attacked and moments later it happens, if Cordy is still reeling from the vision it doesn't help anything to get it, her purging the energy allows her to assert a control and bond with Connor which Jasmine relied on, her being able to go back into the visions would have made sense if she used it more especially in events that were required to allow her ascension and such, but all that also only works if Cordy when she ascends then descends gets bodyjacked and that was the plan all along, if Cordy just goes bad the why she got all these powers is kind of odd.
With Joss's issue with Charisma in S4 now in my head do you think that's partly why he had Skip shit talk Cordy a little bit, in S3 she was a champion and respected for her willingness to die to further the mission and such, in S4 when Angel confronts him about Cordy/Jasmine he mocks the idea she was a champion iirc, do you think this may have had a little to do with Joss being pissed at her? As if Jasmine wasn't always the plan was what S3 Skip said intended to be true?
I find it interesting how certain scenes or dialogue can be interpreted different whne you know more of the behind the scenes, I said this before but I swear Dean calling Sam gassy in the ghost sickness ep of Supernatural was either Jensen having fun or the writers being meta about Jared and his ill timed farts, though I didn't find the one in Legends a few eps back all that clever, referencing the shows real expense issues doesn't make sense in regards to the team as it's stated in the show early on Gideon fabricates their food, clothes and what not, so how does the government get the bill, and who was paying for them for the previous 2 seasons in show?
What I mean by it not making sense, is that Doyle had the visions first, was part demon himself, but he still got headaches and thrashed around when they occurred. In the context of Cordelia being coaxed to consent to a process to "make her part demon," as part of a plan to lay the groundwork for Jasmine to hijack her body; then it makes sense if it turned out that a) the demon species Doyle belonged to didn't naturally possess the power to receive visions in the first place; and him having them was actually a symptom or the seed of Jasmine's early search for a host, that got passed on to Cordy before he died and b) if the pain and even the physical damage caused by the visions were actually designed intentionally by Jasmine or whomever, to eventually lay the groundwork to convince Cordelia or whomever to agree to a process that would let them keep the visions without the pain; with the fine print reading that in so doing they're surrendering their body for this other purpose. From there it gets a little murkier, in terms of the usefulness or nature of her powers; because part of depends on whether her visions were supposed to be natural in the first place or a precursor to Jasmine; or something Jasmine hijacked to weasel her way into a mortal body. Sure, it would be super useful to be able to go back into the visions; and now that you mention it, they definitely should have and could have done more with that. But there again, Doyle was part demon and didn't have that ability, so were the visions even a power of a Brachen demon? Was going back into a vision a power set Cordelia would get that Doyle didn't have? For that matter, why wouldn't Cordelia be made part Brachen demon, like Doyle, if that was natural power for them to have? I wouldn't say her being able to draw out the hell dimension spunk off Conner makes sense, because for one thing, how does that relate or have anything to do with her visions? And for another, what is that power an extension of and what would its use beyond helping Conner in that instance even be? I could maybe see it if the Jasmine parasite fed off that stuff and was drawn to other sources, but they never did anything else with that; so it was more a plot contrivance. And it's not like Conner stopped being a dick after that; I mean, she did that and then he still goes on to sink Angel to the bottom of the ocean and remains an angsty douche bag the rest of season 4. And I'm not sure she needed to glow to control Conner; the power of boners, especially at that age would have more than enough for her to be able to get him to do whatever she wanted. And there were a couple of instances showing Conner getting his engine revved up elsewhere; first with some girl he saved on the street, then later when Faith showed up, that it wouldn't have taken much. Cordy flying was clearly one of those moments of the writers saying, "how can we punctuate Cordelia being different now that she's 'part demon';" and someone responding, "Oh, I know, she gets a vision and it's so painless that no one realizes that she's having the vision and they think she's still talking about the last one." "Yeah, and she's floating." "Why?" "Why not?" "...Yeah, good point." What really annoys me with the whole "half demon" story is that they focus solely on her having powers, but there's no other physical manifestation of her as a demon. And nothing about her powers conventionally seem particularly "demon" like; with the exception of Lorne's ability to read futures. I'm not so sure they were talking smack about Charisma by having Skip put Cordelia down; I mean, the idea of her actually deserving to become a higher being seemed absurd in the first place, so it kind of made sense for Skip to mock it. But there again, what was the real direction then? What was the real purpose to have her ascend if not to bring back a hitchhiker? I have wondered about other jabs like that though; like during Restless when Willow is in the college play; and dream-Giles keeps talking about Willow stepping on everyone's lines, it's always made me wonder if that was a joke about Alyson Hannigan stepping on people's lines. How is it we're having a livelier discussion about Buffy and Angel on the Arrow board than any of the threads on the Buffy board....? Because this is the Arrow board and that's just how we do things.
The more I think about it a lot of the half demon storyline doesn't make sense, not in regards to what we got not being the original plan, it makes more sense in the story playing out as it does, like Cordy wasn't made part demon, she was made or granted part of Jasmines powers, which is also how she ascends so easily, why her powers fluctuate as they do and seem so arbitrary because they simply are whatever and however Jasmine needs them to be in any situation to ensure her plan goes according to plan.
But otherwise I think the visions are meant to hurt, demons are simply strong enough, regenerative enough to handle them for prolonged periods of time, but they are still meant to hurt maybe as a way to force those who get them to take them seriously, to distinguish them from daydreams or dream dreams or even regular hallucinations, or even a sacrifice an agent of the PTB has to endure to serve their purpose?
Then again I didn't and still don't get if the visions are explicitly a power of the PTB? I honestly don't quite get things like this because were the Visions Dru got the same sort as Cordy, was she originally intended to be an agent for good? as originally as a human she was good god fearing girl, until Angelus drove her barmy and then turned her, but if so does that mean Doyle didn't even have to pass the visions onto Cordy? was that his intent or just a coincidence of the powers shifting them over or did Jasmine force that?
As for Cordy ascending I think the only excuse I can think if the hitchhiker thing isn't in the cards is Cordy was only meant to ascend to facilitate Angel becoming more in line with them, if he learned Cordy was now one of the Powers and she was helping them from her perch, which would be needed due to a massive threat that was looming but Angel had proven too emotional and unreliable in the past few years when the people he cared about were concerned, so she was brought up to be his handler or sorts.
I just wonder how did the PTB concern themselves so much with Angel and the goings on in LA but not the goings on in Sunnydale where The First was opening the Hellmouth to bring out her army of ubervamps, or when she was fighting a god, kind of funny when you think the PTB had more interest in a guy who in 5 seasons saved the world 1 time, from a threat his people kind of brought about, Buffy "saves the world" every season but she has no line to the Powers, it's all very silly, but fuck if I do not love these shows anyway.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 23, 2019 4:33:09 GMT
Because this is the Arrow board and that's just how we do things.
The more I think about it a lot of the half demon storyline doesn't make sense, not in regards to what we got not being the original plan, it makes more sense in the story playing out as it does, like Cordy wasn't made part demon, she was made or granted part of Jasmines powers, which is also how she ascends so easily, why her powers fluctuate as they do and seem so arbitrary because they simply are whatever and however Jasmine needs them to be in any situation to ensure her plan goes according to plan.
But otherwise I think the visions are meant to hurt, demons are simply strong enough, regenerative enough to handle them for prolonged periods of time, but they are still meant to hurt maybe as a way to force those who get them to take them seriously, to distinguish them from daydreams or dream dreams or even regular hallucinations, or even a sacrifice an agent of the PTB has to endure to serve their purpose? They seriously muddle the whole "powers that be" thing. I mean, it started off as just an ambiguous term Doyle applied to the unknown source of his visions - he didn't know who or what was responsible, may not have ascribed to any particular faith system, or at least didn't want to make any assumption as to a "right" one; and so he basically described as whomever they might be. But it quickly morphed into almost a pseudo religion within the series, with everyone talking about "the Powers" and Doyle was his link to them and then Cordelia was; and it became seriously convoluted. And it's sort of part and parcel with how they throw around the word "champion". This really stood out in the episode "I Will Remember You," during a recent rewatch; where the Oracles tell Angel that he was "released from his obligation," and I thought, what obligation? It's not like he was fucking drafted; he (eventually) made a conscious choice to fight the good fight, because it was what he wanted to do (and to impress a girl, but most the right thing part). And the same goes for virtually every other character in either series; they're faced with the world around them and have choices to make, but their only obligation they're beholden to are the actions they can live with, which is pretty much the character of Angel in a nutshell. If he had chosen to continue forward in life as human, rather than turning back the clock, there's absolutely no reason he couldn't have still taken up the charge. He may not be to offer the same degree of fighting abilities as he did as a vampire, but then neither did Gunn, Wesley or Fred, neither did Giles or Dawn. Surely he'd be more helpful in a fight than Xander.... I feel the same way. Just like the "powers that be" and "champion" they screwed the pooch with the nature of the visions; especially since it was not only a pre-established power, but one that was pretty synonymous with one of their major characters. That's one of the things I hate about "Birthday," and the idea that any human who had visions died as a result. The only way I can reconcile it is that it was total BS in order to manipulate Cordelia into following the path laid out for her; because it makes no sense, especially on account of Dru, who's head clearly didn't explode before she was made a vampire and wasn't driven insane by the visions by Angelus' torment. It all being an elaborate shadow play to get Cordelia's consent also helps explain the other issues of the episode, like Cordelia being drawn to the Hyperion or the address being under the wallpaper in this altered reality; or that after reality resets they don't have to still address the vision she originally had, since the girl was only helped in a reality that no longer exists.... Angel having the visions in the alternate reality was an interesting choice, but still kind of dumb, seeing as how it drove him insane; which worked in complete opposition to Skip's premise that the main problem of Cordelia having the visions was that she was human and that virtually anything else would be fine with them... unless you're a vampire, I guess. Not sure how Angel would have met Gunn though, if he was slowly losing his mind with the visions. Plus, whenever I watch the episode, I have to wonder - how did Doyle pass the visions to Angel? Every other time they get passed between people in the rest of the show, it's through a kiss; and it was suggested Gru would have gotten them if he and Cordy had sex..... Regarding the visions themselves, Angelus sensed something a special purity about Dru when Darla first showed her to him; and at first thought that Dru was or would be a saint. That certainly suggests some type of powerful connection to something special. It's funny you ponder whether Dru was meant to be an agent for good, as I recently started a thread on the Buffy board expounding on that - imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/145905/drus-storyEssentially, it occurred to me that out of the four members of the original "fang gang," three of them would have some type of story involving them facing the consequences of their past and feeling remorse; being faced with having a soul, desiring redemption and two of them even become outright champions. And I couldn't help but wonder if Dru got short changed, being the odd one out, so to speak; especially with her having "the sight" So in wondering that, and thinking about the whole thing with nature of Angel being a "champion" and the visions, the conclusion I reached is that it would make more sense if the visions weren't so much a mission sent by someone or something with a grand plan, saying, "this person needs to be saved, or that needs to happen to fulfill my intentions," but instead it's the person with the vision's ability to perceive the world around them and know where there's an opportunity to affect positive change. If you think about the visions as a message from some higher being or group of higher beings, with an explicit mission, it really becomes questionable then why they direct them to save one person and not someone else; like why don't the visions occur on a more regular basis, why one person deserves saving and someone else who gets hurt or dies didn't - especially in those cases when a vision leads them to someone after it's too late. On the other hand, I think it would make sense if the "power" is actually coming from the person with the sight; it is after an extra sensory perception; the thought being that Cordelia or Doyle or Dru has a subconscious awareness of events going on, and the possible outcome to those events, but there's so much data there that it would be impossible to consciously process all of it without being driven insane; at least if you're human or even if you're part demon. We're talking anything short of God with a capital G. What triggers a vision then is when their subconscious goes through all these permutations and they become aware of events, pending or presently occurring, whereby their intervention has the best chance for a successful and positive outcome. And so on that subconscious level, they know they can't be everywhere at once; and they know, especially if augmented with the ability to see possible futures and outcomes for subsequent actions, that intervening with certain events might have unintended consequences where it's best to leave it be, even though it means that some people appear to be ignored who might have used their help. And so that might explain why other large threats don't end up on the radar, like Glory or the First, because on some level they know it'll be taken care of without them; or that they're not in a practical position to be of help, especially if it takes them away from threats, like Jasmine or Holtz or Sahijhan. The next step after the vision of course is the choice to either follow the vision or ignore it. This might not seem likely, because who would choose to ignore some of those visions? But ultimately it is a choice and invariably there are some who would choose to ignore them for a wide variety of reasons - fear being the chief among them, but lacking physical prowess or even some who may simply be indifferent or apathetic, as hard to believe as that might be for many. But that would ultimately be a truer and more appropriate definition of a champion; someone who has the opportunity to help and chooses to do so, even at great personal risk. And that would then apply to not just Angel, but the rest of his team. I kind of touched on this above, with the visions being a choice, and some level of knowledge that by going to help fight a threat elsewhere, they're not present but there are other potential explanations that I've found fun to explore. Like, maybe Jasmine and the First were in league; or even one in the same - collecting all the Potentials and Slayers in Sunnydale, means they aren't in LA for its big birth into Jasmine. I feel like there have been some other theories too, but I can't think of them off hand. I did have one thought with Glory; which is entirely its own tangent and goes more into the territory of fan wank than theory. So the idea stems from the events of the AtS episode, "I will Remember Youth" and what might have happened had time been allowed to continue as normal. Angel, now human, eventually returns to Sunnydale to be with Buffy. Not long after his return, Buffy learns she's pregnant, as consequence of their romp in LA when Angel being suddenly made them forget about things like protection. To keep things short(er) I won't get into how season 4 of Buffy might have played out with Angel back in town and Buffy pregnant (plus, not fully settled in my mind). The way the episodes aired, the timing would be pretty close to where, had Buffy and Angel conceived a child in "I Will Remember You," the child would be born around the start of season 5. Naturally, as Buffy goes into labor, Willow attempts a spell to help ease her pain; which leads to shenanigans where other members of the Scoobies, including the men, and probably Spike, experience the labor in Buffy's place; with Angel holding their hand and the two expressing their undying love for one another. The delivery is a success, the spell ends; Buffy lays in the hospital bed with Angel beside her and a nurse presents their son... followed by their daughter. You see, with Buffy already pregnant, the monks had an opportunity to craft the Key into an infant daughter - someone the Slayer would protect just as much as she would have done for a sister, but without the need to alter or rewrite reality/history. So they name her Dawn; and they name the boy... Conner. Conner is Angel and Buffy's son; a child who's descendant of a Slayer and cured vampire, who was meant to be born, only for his conception to be erased when Angel turned back time. So when Angel attempted to lose his soul by sleeping with Darla, a piece of his soul was already in the ether - that part of him that combined with Buffy's to make this child - and the soul already in Angel acted as a magnet, drawing that piece of him across the folds of time back into being; and through the circumstances of his birth and the wonky spell Willow would have cast, it was able to find a home in the closest surrogate womb. Of course in the original reality, Conner would have still been a threat to Sahijhan, so Holtz would have eventually come looking for Angel, only this time earlier, and coinciding with Glory searching for the Key; so Sahijhan opens the portal to Quor'toth and with few options, Buffy and Angel, hand-in-hand, each holding a child, leaps through, away from the immediate threats, albeit encounter another. They return some 13-14 years later, from their perspective; to everyone else, gone only a week or so.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 11:14:53 GMT
Thanks for letting me know. We watched the episodes and are up to the final season now and I am still disappointed over the way they wrote Cordelia off and it would have been better in my opinion if Season 4 had ended with Cordelia waking up and helping Angel and the team defeat Jasmine 'cause it would have given her a chance to get revenge on Jasmine for possessing her. I really thought that season would have ended with Cordelia waking up and doing that and I was surprised it didn't. I have heard rumours there was some type of falling out with Charisma and Joss and I am not sure if they are true or not but it would explain the way they got rid of her 'cause she was such a big part of the show and was billed as the second main star and they just wrote her off like she was never an important character. Those rumors are true, you can find videos on Youtube where Charisma has talked about that a little bit, but says they're on better terms now. The main reason she wasn't involved in the climax of the story/season is because Charisma was pregnant in real life; so she was either still showing at that point, or possibly had just had the baby and was on maternity leave, but either way it would have been hard for them (though definitely not impossible) to have her actively involved in the plot. But that is why she's in the coma, always laying down or propped up, with the bombs strapped around her in the season finale. It's also the decisive factor everything about that season; from the direction of the plot that season, to Charisma and Joss' falling out. Word has it that Joss has a very different vision for season 4, that would have had Cordelia, in fashion, as the big bad; and play out some long term story arch he had been planning. When Charisma found out she was pregnant, she didn't tell Joss and the other producers or writers right away, which she's said was because she was concerned how that would affect her role on the show. And when she finally did tell them, naturally a lot of the plans for the season had to be changed, especially on account of Joss' plans to make Cordelia the big bad, knowing that she'd be showing, they changed direction and brought about Jasmine, who could be played by someone else. Somewhere I've read an account, possibly directly from Joss, that Cordelia sleeping with Connor had still been part of the plan, but it was originally going to be later; and they had to move it up so they could do it before she started showing. And then accord Charisma, the whole thing contributed to the falling out between her and Joss, where they had been close before, or at least on good terms; and having to change all of these carefully laid plans at the last minute lead to some bitter feelings for a time on Joss' part. Also, going into season 5, they didn't bother telling Charisma that she wasn't coming back; and she learned it through a news report. I don't know how far you've gotten into season 5, so: When Cordelia does come back, Charisma had some reluctance, since she didn't want to do the episode just to be killed off; and she was very adamant that she'd only agree to come back if they guaranteed she not be killed off. And then of course, after they've agreed to all of this and she's signed the contract and they begin shooting, some writer or producer or someone comes to her trailer and tells her there's been a script change; and tada, she's being killed off - but, when she recounts this in the convention videos I've seen, she always qualifies that she was okay with the changes, because of how it was written, and that in typical Joss fashion it was written well enough to look past it. It's hard to say whether she genuinely felt that way it was dealt with and her character killed off was good enough to forgive them pulling a bait and switch; or if she's just saying that save face and not get back on Joss' bad side.... At the risk of contributing to gossip, the whole thing does make me wonder, considering the revelation that's since come to light by way of Joss' ex-wife about his alleged confession to her of having an affair with at least one actress from Buffy... Oohh okay. That is sad then and explains why they wrote her character off and they should have put the show on hold until after Charisma had the baby and they went a whole year without a season of ‘24’ in between Season 6 and 7 and Season 2 of ‘Secret City’ with Anna Torv is only returning now on Foxtel and the first season aired here back in 2016 so ‘Angel’ probably could have done the same but then again there was Joss’ rocky relationship with the guy in charge of WB who cancelled ‘Angel’ and he might not have allowed them to do that. Still the season could have been better if Cordelia stayed the big bad ‘cause you would have had Angel and the team having to find a way to stop her without killing her ‘cause she was their friend but I think just having Cordelia wake up in the final and help to defeat Jasmine would have been better than the ending we got.
I wonder what their plans for Cordelia would have been if she had been in Season 5 and I know you have said you weren’t a fan of the Angel and Cordelia relationship but do you think they would have had the two of them get together or they just would have gone back to being friends? Cordelia being a regular in Season 5 would have probably meant less airtime for Spike but it would have been fun to have seen the characters interact with each other more and how Cordelia would have fit into the Wolfram Hart storyline. I don't know what they would have had Cordelia do when Angel got the 'Wolfram Hart' building 'cause with Fred, Wesley and Lorne it was fairly simple and they put all that stuff in Gunn's head to make him smarter so he could be a lawyer but where would have Cordelia fit and would she have stayed half demon or higher being or went back to normal again?
We are up to the episodes where Lindsay returns and pretends he is Doyle and I remember reading somewhere Lindsay was originally supposed to stay on and join the team but they decided to write him out 'cause they didn't have enough room for him but i am not sure if that was true or not. However, I found it weird how he come back as a villain after the way he left but then again maybe he was still mad over this.
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