Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 13:39:33 GMT
It's Gods, plural. I'm sick and tired of all these selective atheists who only believe in one. I am agnostic
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 23, 2018 14:38:56 GMT
Well, that would seem to be their problem. And what is your problem with the spelling of the word 'but'? God's will? Since there isn't a God he can't have a butt! Jehovah apparently does, (though I take your point). We know since He showed it to Moses:
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” (19) And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. (20) But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” (21) And the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, (22) and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. (23) Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 23, 2018 14:44:22 GMT
Agreed; it is just as wrong to assert that "there is no god" as it is to assert that "there is a god", IMO, because both positions make positive claims that have truth burdens. This assumes that that only type of atheism is positive or 'hard' atheism. Some atheists, like myself make no assertive claim about the deliberate supernatural, and we simply lack belief. Or, to put it another way, lacking a belief in god is not contingent on the idea that one doesn't exist.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 16:56:47 GMT
Agreed; it is just as wrong to assert that "there is no god" as it is to assert that "there is a god", IMO, because both positions make positive claims that have truth burdens. This assumes that that only type of atheism is positive or 'hard' atheism. Some atheists, like myself make no assertive claim about the deliberate supernatural, and we simply lack belief. Or, to put it another way, lacking a belief in god is not contingent on the idea that one doesn't exist. Oh come on, I went on to describe the soft atheism position and say I was one in the very next paragraph!
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 23, 2018 17:40:50 GMT
Since there isn't a God he can't have a butt! Jehovah apparently does, (though I take your point). We know since He showed it to Moses:
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” (19) And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. (20) But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” (21) And the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, (22) and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. (23) Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
So Jehovah mooned Moses? And it's right there in the bible! Thanks, I needed a good laugh!
|
|
|
Post by goz on Mar 23, 2018 21:55:58 GMT
Since there isn't a God he can't have a butt! Jehovah apparently does, (though I take your point). We know since He showed it to Moses:
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” (19) And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. (20) But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” (21) And the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, (22) and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. (23) Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
and here was I thinking a 'glory hole' was something quite different!!!
|
|
|
Post by mslo79 on Mar 24, 2018 10:02:26 GMT
So your at least open to the possibility, even if you feel the chance is slim ; that makes more sense than the atheist view in my mind because what they are essentially saying is that there is NO CHANCE of God's existence which I don't think anyone can claim that with absolute certainty simply because while it might 'seem' like this world is all there is, no one can definitely say that this world is all there is. just one little site that's decent... godandscience.org/plus, there are things that happen in the world that I think make it at least plausible that God exists and it seems a large portion of the planet believe in God the last I checked. but for many, like I always quote, it boils down to this... basically faith is required on some level as without that people seem to just refuse to believe no matter what they see in the world as they will start to conjure up things, even when they are a stretch, to deny God's existence. so basically those who must have that "definitive proof" kinds of people in order to believe, these people pretty much have no faith. p.s. but one thing I always wondered is why some people believe in God while others simply cannot. because I always heard that faith is a gift from God but I wonder why some have this while others do not. I guess it's one of life's mysteries one more thing ill quote... Just some thoughts gadreelI would pretty much disagree with that given the wording of 'nobody'. God exists and many believe this. in fact, I am pretty sure a large portion of the planet believes in God. also, I would say that some people 'know' God exists but won't be able to give that concrete verifiable kind of proof the world wants. It's like God gives us just enough to believe (for those who can see) but still requires us to have faith in Him on some level. p.s. St. Pio (1887-1968) ; he knew God quite well sagenesseExactly. basically anything that exists is because of Him. like you already said, He determines right and wrong. those who deny this and do whatever they please will likely go against God a decent portion of the time because they don't except the basic fall of Adam/Eve which after that occurred humanity had a fallen nature and was inclined towards sin after that point and now the human race no longer see's right and wrong clearly which is where God comes into things. suffering entered the world after the fall of Adam/Eve as it's a consequence of sin. basically us humans come into existence in this physical world even though we are spiritual beings (i.e. our soul is eternal). basically all that exists is what's in the physical world here, which we know as the universe, and then on 'the other side' (i.e. after out bodies die here on earth) is the spiritual world with basically heaven/hell. our choices/actions here ultimately determine where we end up. because from what I hear it's not that God sends someone to hell, it's that they choose it themselves by rejecting Him and His ways here on earth and that He simply confirms their choice and then they end up in hell since, in the end, one is either ultimately good or bad. @miccee Not true. while some stuff is a mystery, everything in existence was created good by God, but it was only through their free will(their choices) that evil came into existence. if we did not have free will and He forced us to be good then that would not be true love and we also would have have a free will if we are 'forced' into being only good. sadly, quite a few people buy into that mindset similar to you with a negative opinion of God. but the truly bad one is the devil as I can assure you he wants nothing but your destruction and to bring you to hell with him for eternity. God on the other hand, wants you to be happy with Him forever in Heaven ; it's not always easy to stick to God's standards etc but at least we can try with His help through regular prayer etc.
|
|
|
Post by Marv on Mar 24, 2018 11:10:50 GMT
So long as I can go about my business you can believe whatever you like.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 12:36:54 GMT
mslo79Everything has to have a cause, and if God exists, then the chain of causality ultimately goes back to him. So the buck stops at God for anything in nature that is evil, harmful, cruel, etc. Free will cannot exist in the sense that your theological beliefs would need it to, because there's no room for it either in the chain of causality, or in random quantum fluctuations. Adam didn't choose to choose to eat the apple, he chose it because it was in his nature to be corruptible. If you claim that he ate the apple through the exercise of free will, then you just end up with an infinite regress (so he had to think the thoughts before thinking them and think to think the thoughts before thinking them, and so on).
|
|
|
Post by johnblutarsky on Mar 24, 2018 14:42:26 GMT
Jehovah apparently does, (though I take your point). We know since He showed it to Moses:
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, "... Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
So Jehovah mooned Moses?... To be fair, it was during Jehovah's wild, college-prankster phase.
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Mar 24, 2018 14:56:57 GMT
tpfkar then you just end up with an infinite regress (so he had to think the thoughts before thinking them and think to think the thoughts before thinking them, and so on). Nope, not a part of free will, at least for anyone not pushing specific agendas. Just because a creature got his skills/traits some way doesn't mean he doesn't have them or that he's not culpable. Although you can and we do consider and even bellyhole stare endlessly about how he got that way, that s.o.b. is still an s.o.b. It's just that when you throw "God" into the mix, he equally becomes the S.O.B. as he chose to set it up that way when he had other options. Does Free Will Exist?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 23:38:19 GMT
tpfkar then you just end up with an infinite regress (so he had to think the thoughts before thinking them and think to think the thoughts before thinking them, and so on). Nope, not a part of free will, at least for anyone not pushing specific agendas. Just because a creature got his skills/traits some way doesn't mean he doesn't have them or that he's not culpable. Although you can and we do consider and even bellyhole stare endlessly about how he got that way, that s.o.b. is still an s.o.b. It's just that when you throw "God" into the mix, he equally becomes the S.O.B. as he chose to set it up that way when he had other options. Does Free Will Exist?It's the definition of free will required to exculpate God from any wrongdoing or negligence (as Christians do when they aver that evil exists because of free will), and anything less than that is not 'free' in any meaningful sense because it follows on inexorably from a chain of prior causes going back to the start of the universe, that were not controlled by the person making the choice.
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Mar 24, 2018 23:48:11 GMT
tpfkar Nope, not a part of free will, at least for anyone not pushing specific agendas. Just because a creature got his skills/traits some way doesn't mean he doesn't have them or that he's not culpable. Although you can and we do consider and even bellyhole stare endlessly about how he got that way, that s.o.b. is still an s.o.b. It's just that when you throw "God" into the mix, he equally becomes the S.O.B. as he chose to set it up that way when he had other options. Does Free Will Exist?It's the definition of free will required to exculpate God from any wrongdoing or negligence (as Christians do when they aver that evil exists because of free will), and anything less than that is not 'free' in any meaningful sense because it follows on inexorably from a chain of prior causes going back to the start of the universe, that were not controlled by the person making the choice. There is no exculpation of God through the inept and/or cynical introduction of utter fatuity. And your "meaningful sense" carries the weight of the patent crazy. Everything has priors; that's unremarkable and doesn't make them any less whatever it is they are. Regardless of your "controlled" yet frantic scrabbling to alter, and the like. And if society wants the fairest possible state of affairs, that would mean no humans and no society.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 1:46:06 GMT
So your at least open to the possibility, even if you feel the chance is slim ; that makes more sense than the atheist view in my mind That IS an atheist view. But one can believe anything on faith, can one not? Including things which are demonstrably false. One should put faith in a proposition only if one doesn't really care whether it is true or not.
That's kind of the opposite of my experience. I've never encountered a piece of actual evidence for god that needed to be be denied. But I have seen an awful lot of believers present things as evidence which actually are not any such thing, and then go to any lengths to refuse to accept this.
Absolutely. I have none whatever, and if I ever found myself having any I would immediately try to remove it. But he didn't say that nobody believes in god. He said that nobody knows if there is a god. The two things are not the same.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Mar 26, 2018 1:56:46 GMT
So your at least open to the possibility, even if you feel the chance is slim ; that makes more sense than the atheist view in my mind because what they are essentially saying is that there is NO CHANCE of God's existence which I don't think anyone can claim that with absolute certainty simply because while it might 'seem' like this world is all there is, no one can definitely say that this world is all there is. just one little site that's decent... godandscience.org/plus, there are things that happen in the world that I think make it at least plausible that God exists and it seems a large portion of the planet believe in God the last I checked. but for many, like I always quote, it boils down to this... basically faith is required on some level as without that people seem to just refuse to believe no matter what they see in the world as they will start to conjure up things, even when they are a stretch, to deny God's existence. so basically those who must have that "definitive proof" kinds of people in order to believe, these people pretty much have no faith. p.s. but one thing I always wondered is why some people believe in God while others simply cannot. because I always heard that faith is a gift from God but I wonder why some have this while others do not. I guess it's one of life's mysteries one more thing ill quote... Just some thoughts gadreel I would pretty much disagree with that given the wording of 'nobody'. God exists and many believe this. in fact, I am pretty sure a large portion of the planet believes in God. also, I would say that some people 'know' God exists but won't be able to give that concrete verifiable kind of proof the world wants. It's like God gives us just enough to believe (for those who can see) but still requires us to have faith in Him on some level. p.s. St. Pio (1887-1968) ; he knew God quite well sagenesse Exactly. basically anything that exists is because of Him. like you already said, He determines right and wrong. those who deny this and do whatever they please will likely go against God a decent portion of the time because they don't except the basic fall of Adam/Eve which after that occurred humanity had a fallen nature and was inclined towards sin after that point and now the human race no longer see's right and wrong clearly which is where God comes into things. suffering entered the world after the fall of Adam/Eve as it's a consequence of sin. basically us humans come into existence in this physical world even though we are spiritual beings (i.e. our soul is eternal). basically all that exists is what's in the physical world here, which we know as the universe, and then on 'the other side' (i.e. after out bodies die here on earth) is the spiritual world with basically heaven/hell. our choices/actions here ultimately determine where we end up. because from what I hear it's not that God sends someone to hell, it's that they choose it themselves by rejecting Him and His ways here on earth and that He simply confirms their choice and then they end up in hell since, in the end, one is either ultimately good or bad. @miccee Not true. while some stuff is a mystery, everything in existence was created good by God, but it was only through their free will(their choices) that evil came into existence. if we did not have free will and He forced us to be good then that would not be true love and we also would have have a free will if we are 'forced' into being only good. sadly, quite a few people buy into that mindset similar to you with a negative opinion of God. but the truly bad one is the devil as I can assure you he wants nothing but your destruction and to bring you to hell with him for eternity. God on the other hand, wants you to be happy with Him forever in Heaven ; it's not always easy to stick to God's standards etc but at least we can try with His help through regular prayer etc. I guess it depends on your definition of 'know', many people may belief in their hearts that a God exists, and they my not even think to question it, but given that there is no proof either way that there is a God or not, then they cannot possibly know without doubt. That is what I am expressing.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 26, 2018 12:06:11 GMT
your at least open to the possibility, even if you feel the chance is slim ; that makes more sense than the atheist view in my mind because what they are essentially saying is that there is NO CHANCE of God's existence .. which I don't think anyone can claim that with absolute certainty simply because while it might 'seem' like this world is all there is, no one can definitely say that this world is all there is. This is not true of all atheists. As said before, a lack of belief in a deity is not contingent on a belief that it does not exist - although I would certainly agree with you that all statements about the existence, or not, of any god must necessarily be an expression of belief since such things cannot be 'known' either way. The Argument from Popularity is, unfortunately, a fallacy. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of faith. Do not confuse obduracy with natural scepticism caused by a lack of evidence, at least away from the manifold claims of holy books and personal credulity. Perhaps you should better ask why an all-powerful deity, who presumably knows exactly what would persuade, (not coerce) many more into accepting His reality, bringing them to salvation & etc, and thereby ensuring His will was done, does not simply, quickly and unambiguously act to ensure matters. Perhaps it is because that the claims of other gods and religions are equally as valid to those from those cultures? Or is it perhaps faith and old fashioned religion is directly correlated to levels of education?
Christ told his followers to expect to be persecuted. And so natually they look and are quick to find it, even though Christianity enjoys a favoured and powerful established position throughout many countries. But the Christian persecution complex still finds need to express itself. It might also be noted that much of the above, the hate, the sneering, the conflicting opinions and the rest mentioned above could just as easily be applied to the mutual distrust and animosity down the years between various elements of Christianity, as much as from any challenges your faith faces from without.
You know that not everything in the Bible is to be taken as literally true. Right?
And so the evidence for the soul is....
Which is like saying a murderer 'chooses' capital punishment by his crime, which is nonsense when it is a judgement made on him. But I can see the need to absolve a supposedly all-good and loving god from deliberately sending some unfortunates to eternal pain and torture. But he does.
Even the evil He admits to creating in Isiah? How's that work then? The Bible says that your god takes pleasure in all of His works. How much enjoyment does childhood bone cancer give him?
Ah the Devil. Is this the one with pitchfork and horns? The one also made by your god?
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Mar 26, 2018 18:15:57 GMT
Choice may be the wrong word, but at the end of the day you have decided to interpret events to conclude that there is a God, another person may have interpreted those events and come to a different conclusion. Yes we could believe something based on absolutely nothing in theory, in practice I think that is an unlikely scenario. Well, the choice is in the option of listening to the information, researching it further, and comparing which one made the most sense. if any of those parts aren't done, then it isn't really knowledge we are basing our views on and then you would be correct that choice is what matters. After that, it would be difficult to impossible to pretend one option is the same as the other. At that point choice is removed from the equation as a result of the knowledge gained. But my premise is that you cannot have enough knowledge to know. There is no proof therefore it is all about your choice to interpret the evidence that way.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 26, 2018 18:30:37 GMT
Well, the choice is in the option of listening to the information, researching it further, and comparing which one made the most sense. if any of those parts aren't done, then it isn't really knowledge we are basing our views on and then you would be correct that choice is what matters. After that, it would be difficult to impossible to pretend one option is the same as the other. At that point choice is removed from the equation as a result of the knowledge gained. But my premise is that you cannot have enough knowledge to know. There is no proof therefore it is all about your choice to interpret the evidence that way. No one is omniscient. However, you do have enough info to be satisfied with the decision. Everybody does. Anything unknown is universally unknown so don't even know why anyone would make decisions primarily on the unknown since that is the least important aspect.
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Mar 26, 2018 18:52:59 GMT
I’d rather believe by faith alone than not believe. Why? Well, when I die and if I’m wrong I won’t know it because I’m dead and that’s the end. So there is no risk in believing. Are you implying that there is some “risk” involved in NOT believing there is a god? And if so, what risk might that be?
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 26, 2018 19:41:30 GMT
your at least open to the possibility, even if you feel the chance is slim ; that makes more sense than the atheist view in my mind because what they are essentially saying is that there is NO CHANCE of God's existence .. which I don't think anyone can claim that with absolute certainty simply because while it might 'seem' like this world is all there is, no one can definitely say that this world is all there is. This is not true of all atheists. As said before, a lack of belief in a deity is not contingent on a belief that it does not exist - although I would certainly agree with you that all statements about the existence, or not, of any god must necessarily be an expression of belief since such things cannot be 'known' either way.
The Argument from Popularity is, unfortunately, a fallacy. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of faith.
Do not confuse obduracy with natural scepticism caused by a lack of evidence, at least away from the manifold claims of holy books and personal credulity. Perhaps you should better ask why an all-powerful deity, who presumably knows exactly what would persuade, (not coerce) many more into accepting His reality, bringing them to salvation & etc, and thereby ensuring His will was done, does not simply, quickly and unambiguously act to ensure matters. Perhaps it is because that the claims of other gods and religions are equally as valid to those from those cultures? Or is it perhaps faith and old fashioned religion is directly correlated to levels of education?
Christ told his followers to expect to be persecuted. And so natually they look and are quick to find it, even though Christianity enjoys a favoured and powerful established position throughout many countries. But the Christian persecution complex still finds need to express itself. It might also be noted that much of the above, the hate, the sneering, the conflicting opinions and the rest mentioned above could just as easily be applied to the mutual distrust and animosity down the years between various elements of Christianity, as much as from any challenges your faith faces from without.
You know that not everything in the Bible is to be taken as literally true. Right?
And so the evidence for the soul is....
Which is like saying a murderer 'chooses' capital punishment by his crime, which is nonsense when it is a judgement made on him. But I can see the need to absolve a supposedly all-good and loving god from deliberately sending some unfortunates to eternal pain and torture. But he does.
Even the evil He admits to creating in Isiah? How's that work then? The Bible says that your god takes pleasure in all of His works. How much enjoyment does childhood bone cancer give him?
Ah the Devil. Is this the one with pitchfork and horns? The one also made by your god?
All excellent points.
|
|