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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 4, 2018 18:54:48 GMT
You make good points. Still, I have to somewhat disagree. Here's why? If you research the history of George Lucas - how wrote and made the OT from beginning to end... if you look at all of the collaborations he had to pull it off... you will NEVER hear one person he collaborated with say George Lucas gave them nothing to work with. He always provided at least some story or character points to work off of... some kind of concept to where he thought the story or characters were heading. Even when he did the prequels and his collaboration was mostly limited to production you could say the same thing about how Lucas did things. Watch any documentary or featurette on any movie. You will see that doing what Abrams did is just not normal. A storyteller who makes a story always has some kind of vision in mind. Especially if it is part of a series or sequels, there's some kind of concept as to where the story and characters are headed.The only time that you will find this is not the case is when there is a hiatus. In those cases usually (but not always) you have to start cold. Under those circumstances the preceding storyteller has either concluded their vision, or circumstances prevented from continuing and it's been so long that they've lost a vision for it. In those cases the next storyteller may try to confer with the previous one to try and get more insight. Or they may abandon any previous trends of previous work. (Notice that point just mentioned). They will start cold and go with their own personal perception and direction. But under those circumstances you are dealing with a hiatus and the new storyteller has had an extended period of time to figure out their own vision and "start over" (even though their making a sequel). You don't just give someone making a sequel nothing when they have 6 months or less to work with!(By contrast even Abrams had almost a year to come up with something based on what Michael Arndt gave him on his TFA script. And some people considered that pressured circumstances).One could argue that Abrams did in fact have a vision. He wrote scripts for Episode 8 and 9 but Disney/Rian abandoned his ideas for what we ended up getting for Episode 8...The fault really rests with Rian. If he didn't feel he could continue Abrams/Kasdan's work on 7 without abandoning/contradicting it, he should have just withdrawn from the project as a writer (deciding just to direct instead). Honestly, it sounds like Colin Trevorrow understood where Abrams was going with the story. It's a shame Disney fired him. Abrams and Kasdan actually asked Disney for more time in pre-production for Episode 7. They ended up getting an additional 5 or 6 months to work on everything. Originally it was going to be only 6 months. That's the only reason they got more time than Rian. I've never heard that Abrams wrote scripts for episodes 8 and 9. Except for an off-the-cuff comment from Daisy Ridley. But I don't consider that credible. Do you have a link?
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 4, 2018 18:56:38 GMT
Because those characters are not in ANH. Duh! Oh, so it wasn't possible to just have be off somewhere else doing something else during ANH? They HAD to die? You're A-Okay with them killing off Jyn Erso and her group instead of leaving them alive elsewhere so we'd have more stories of their adventures, but you cant' stand the ST for killing off the OT characters. Nice double standard.I can understand his viewpoint on this. We didn't wait 30 years to see the characters in Rogue One. We did though with the original characters from the OT. To bring the characters back only to kill them off one-by-one in each episode, was underwhelming to the say the least. Mark Hamill caught on to the trend and said he told Carrie to, "Prepare! Your death is next in Episode 9!" It would have been nice if one or two characters from Rogue One had survived...however that isn't in line with the pessimistic Star Wars movies Disney is set on making though.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 4, 2018 18:58:23 GMT
One could argue that Abrams did in fact have a vision. He wrote scripts for Episode 8 and 9 but Disney/Rian abandoned his ideas for what we ended up getting for Episode 8...The fault really rests with Rian. If he didn't feel he could continue Abrams/Kasdan's work on 7 without abandoning/contradicting it, he should have just withdrawn from the project as a writer (deciding just to direct instead). Honestly, it sounds like Colin Trevorrow understood where Abrams was going with the story. It's a shame Disney fired him. Abrams and Kasdan actually asked Disney for more time in pre-production for Episode 7. They ended up getting an additional 5 or 6 months to work on everything. Originally it was going to be only 6 months. That's the only reason they got more time than Rian. I've never heard that Abrams wrote scripts for episodes 8 and 9. Except for an off-the-cuff comment from Daisy Ridley. But I don't consider that credible. Do you have a link? I do...at least I did haha. I pasted it one of these long threads. I don't remember which one.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 4, 2018 19:07:16 GMT
Oh, so it wasn't possible to just have be off somewhere else doing something else during ANH? They HAD to die? You're A-Okay with them killing off Jyn Erso and her group instead of leaving them alive elsewhere so we'd have more stories of their adventures, but you cant' stand the ST for killing off the OT characters. Nice double standard.I can understand his viewpoint on this. We didn't wait 30 years to see the characters in Rogue One. We did though with the original characters from the OT. To bring the characters back only to kill them off one-by-one in each episode, was underwhelming to the say the least. Eh, Han's death was unavoidable...Ford wouldn't come back unless they agreed to kill him and he never liked playing Han in the first place.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 4, 2018 19:20:25 GMT
Survive and do what with them? There's no way to put them into the OT. You're being an idiot. Then no one should be thinking "Huh, I wish they hadn't killed off all of them" as opposed to Rey and Finns' "Why the Hell are we wasting time on these characters when Luke and Han and Leia should be fighting the First Order on their own without needing any help?" That's a stupid argument because since the day that OT ended in 1983 every indication was that any sequel trilogy was going to be about what happens to the 3 main protagonists afterward. Rogue One was meant to be a standalone movie from the start. The writer of Rogue One has said as much himself. Disney's plan was for it to be a standalone anthology film. How many ways do you have to be shown that there was nowhere to go with the characters of RO after it ends? You're comparing apples to oranges. As for your claim (again) that OT fans didn't want any of the new characters doing anything - it's still...
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Post by President Ackbarโข on Apr 4, 2018 19:30:25 GMT
Daisy Ridley: J.J. Abrams Wrote Drafts For Star Wars 8 & 9
By Chris Agar 03.01.2018
Daisy Ridley reveals that in the early stages of development on the Star Wars sequel trilogy, J.J. Abrams had written drafts for Episode VIII and Episode IX, in addition to co-writing the script for The Force Awakens.
During an interview with the French outlet Le Magazine GEEK, the actress was asked if Reyโs parentage was an issue resolved during Force Awakens or not. In her response, Ridley offered her interpretation of the sequel trilogyโs writing process:
โHereโs what I think I know. J. J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote The Last Jedi entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didnโt keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.โ
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 4, 2018 19:31:54 GMT
That's a stupid argument because since the day that OT ended in 1983 every indication was that any sequel trilogy was going to be about what happens to the 3 main protagonists afterward. Them and ONLY them. Then fans shouldn't leave the film thinking "Huh, I wouldn't have minded if some of them had lives..." as opposed to the TFA's "Ugh, new characters? Star Wars doesn't need new characters!" I'll be willing to believe it when people stop hating the ST's characters for existing and taking the spotlight away from Luke and co. The truth, considering the reactions TFA and TLJ got to Rey and Finn.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 4, 2018 19:59:47 GMT
That's a stupid argument because since the day that OT ended in 1983 every indication was that any sequel trilogy was going to be about what happens to the 3 main protagonists afterward. Them and ONLY them. Then fans shouldn't leave the film thinking "Huh, I wouldn't have minded if some of them had lives..." as opposed to the TFA's "Ugh, new characters? Star Wars doesn't need new characters!" I'll be willing to believe it when people stop hating the ST's characters for existing and taking the spotlight away from Luke and co. The truth, considering the reactions TFA and TLJ got to Rey and Finn. They reacted that way to Rey because she's a warrior princess using Disney magic! ...Disney channel stuff. They reacted that way to Finn because he's not a rogue Stormtrooper. He's a black Jar Jar Binks. Again... Disney channel stuff. Many of there shows have totally inept, neutered male sidekicks that provide comic relief for their shows. That's how we got a turncoat Stormtrooper who elite training from birth acting like a fawning buffoon. And that's the truth of why they're disliked. There's been tons of comments on forums essentially saying the same thing in the way of complaints. As for the rest of what you said...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 20:18:28 GMT
Daisy Ridley: J.J. Abrams Wrote Drafts For Star Wars 8 & 9By Chris Agar 03.01.2018Daisy Ridley reveals that in the early stages of development on the Star Wars sequel trilogy, J.J. Abrams had written drafts for Episode VIII and Episode IX, in addition to co-writing the script for The Force Awakens. During an interview with the French outlet Le Magazine GEEK, the actress was asked if Reyโs parentage was an issue resolved during Force Awakens or not. In her response, Ridley offered her interpretation of the sequel trilogyโs writing process: โHereโs what I think I know. J. J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote The Last Jedi entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didnโt keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.โ What a douche.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 4, 2018 20:31:18 GMT
Daisy Ridley: J.J. Abrams Wrote Drafts For Star Wars 8 & 9By Chris Agar 03.01.2018Daisy Ridley reveals that in the early stages of development on the Star Wars sequel trilogy, J.J. Abrams had written drafts for Episode VIII and Episode IX, in addition to co-writing the script for The Force Awakens. During an interview with the French outlet Le Magazine GEEK, the actress was asked if Reyโs parentage was an issue resolved during Force Awakens or not. In her response, Ridley offered her interpretation of the sequel trilogyโs writing process: โHereโs what I think I know. J. J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote The Last Jedi entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didnโt keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.โ That first sentence out of her mouth means that you have to take with a grain of salt everything she says after that. I've actually heard the audio of this interview. During the entire time that Daisy's talking there's a tone of uncertainty in her voice. I wouldn't put the odds any higher than 50/50 that she knows what she's talking about.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 4, 2018 23:21:49 GMT
I've never heard that Abrams wrote scripts for episodes 8 and 9. Except for an off-the-cuff comment from Daisy Ridley. But I don't consider that credible. Do you have a link? This isn't the original link I posted elsewhere but it's an example: www.theverge.com/2015/11/9/9695650/star-wars-8-script-finished-jj-abramsI had only seen part of this quote before so...it's disconcerting to read the rest of it (if Abrams wasn't just being political when he said Rian's vision was in line with his).
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 4, 2018 23:25:37 GMT
I've never heard that Abrams wrote scripts for episodes 8 and 9. Except for an off-the-cuff comment from Daisy Ridley. But I don't consider that credible. Do you have a link? Then there's the quote by Daisy that you know of but I thought I would post here for others. It was published to some shoddy knock-off version of our website here...look how they even stole part of the name of our message board! www.imdb.com/news/ni61946509The website looks like shit, whatever it is. I'll try not to post something from it in the future.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 4, 2018 23:32:38 GMT
I've never heard that Abrams wrote scripts for episodes 8 and 9. Except for an off-the-cuff comment from Daisy Ridley. But I don't consider that credible. Do you have a link? Ok. Here's one from Simon Pegg. He doesn't seem to be sure (much like Ridley) but he stated he thinks Abrams intended for Rey's lineage to be important in the trilogy: www.yahoo.com/entertainment/j-j-abrams-had-different-181000848.html
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 4, 2018 23:56:59 GMT
I can understand his viewpoint on this. We didn't wait 30 years to see the characters in Rogue One. We did though with the original characters from the OT. To bring the characters back only to kill them off one-by-one in each episode, was underwhelming to the say the least. Eh, Han's death was unavoidable...Ford wouldn't come back unless they agreed to kill him and he never liked playing Han in the first place.I agree with you on that one. Ford was always a very reluctant actor to the Star Wars movies - so much so that he was only signed to one movie in the original trilogy (while Hamill and Fisher were signed to all three). I was surprised Disney got Ford for one whole movie...I suppose $20 million dollars was enough to convince him. However, they really didn't need to kill Luke Skywalker off. I'm not saying Luke shouldn't ever have died. Certainly no Jedi can live forever but it would have been nice to have him around at least through the end of Episode 9. Mark Hamill said he only requested two things from Disney: one of which was Luke living until the end of Episode 9. He said that didn't work out for him... Really, Mark would have been willing to do a whole bunch of movies. Star Wars has been a huge part of his careers. He's always loved his role in the movies and interacting with the fans for the past 40+ years. They didn't have the reluctance with Mark like they did with Ford. Even after they didn't honor his request or involve him the process of developing the script (like they did with Ford and Fisher), he still says how he would be willing to be in Episode 9 if he was asked. What really goaded me about the whole thing though was how they treated our heroes in these new movies: they just punished and humiliated them: - Han/Leia are separated or divorced (never really clarified if they ever married) and are terrible parents. - Luke is an asshole who cowardly hides away from an island, risks the lives of his friends/family (getting Han Solo killed in the process), leaves behind a map before Episode 7 (despite saying he didn't want to be bothered) getting an entire village of people killed in the process, says he wants the Jedi to end despite still wearing Jedi robes at the end of Episode 7... 30 year later, and overall nothing makes sense about Luke in the new movies despite the director's attempt to insist it does all these months later. I'm sorry, Rian, but if it isn't in the movie, you failed at getting your message across. - The Droids are regulated to almost no screen time. Rian originally didn't even have Luke do anything before he has his final confrontation with Kylo. It was Mark's idea to have Luke at least acknowledge The Golden Rod. Rian doesn't get what makes Star Wars special. - Chewbacca was actually handled well in terms of how he acts. I can say that about Episode 8. I didn't care for the whole Porg thing and it pisses me off now that Leia didn't hug him in Episode 7 given that Rey is a nobody. Part of that blame is on both Abrams and Johnson though. If Rian had at least respected the legacy of Star Wars, I wouldn't have minded Luke or Han eventually dying. It's the manner and approach they took to unfolding the story. Rogue One is a decent Star Wars movie but I just can't watch Episode 8 again. I used to love Episode 7 but I can't watch that due to being tarnished by 8.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 5, 2018 1:37:50 GMT
They reacted that way to Rey because she's Not the pathetic tagalong bumbling sidekick of Lukes' they were hoping she'd be. Please, seeing how you've reacted to Rey being tough and independent, Finn the mighty stormtrooper would just be seen as a Marty Stu being tougher and stronger than any Resistance Fighter. The second he fires a shot that doesn't miss, he'd be written off as too powerful. If they'd been bumbling incompetent sidekicks to Luke and co, with Luke and co at the forefront, there wouldn't be complaints because OT fans would be too busy sn****ring at anyone who likes the new characters for thinking they'd ever be given the torch of the Saga.
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Post by darkpast on Apr 5, 2018 3:45:44 GMT
this trilogy is gonna need special editions
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 5, 2018 6:03:44 GMT
They reacted that way to Rey because she's Not the pathetic tagalong bumbling sidekick of Lukes' they were hoping she'd be. Please, seeing how you've reacted to Rey being tough and independent, Finn the mighty stormtrooper would just be seen as a Marty Stu being tougher and stronger than any Resistance Fighter. The second he fires a shot that doesn't miss, he'd be written off as too powerful. If they'd been bumbling incompetent sidekicks to Luke and co, with Luke and co at the forefront, there wouldn't be complaints because OT fans would be too busy sn****ring at anyone who likes the new characters for thinking they'd ever be given the torch of the Saga.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 5, 2018 6:11:14 GMT
Not the pathetic tagalong bumbling sidekick of Lukes' they were hoping she'd be. Please, fool! It has nothing to do with wanting Finn to be a Marty Stu. He acts like Jar Jar Binks, not a Stormtrooper. Just act like a freaking Stormtrooper! It's not that hard. But Finn acts like Hannah Montana's brother instead... Disney crap! Go watch the Disney channel, dude - and keep those kind of characters out of SW.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 5, 2018 11:58:59 GMT
Please, fool! It has nothing to do with wanting Finn to be a Marty Stu. He acts like Jar Jar Binks, not a Stormtrooper. Just act like a freaking Stormtrooper! It's not that hard. What, a mook who can't aim? The Stomrtroopers have always been jokes in SW. This idea he should be some emotionless warrior instead of someone with a personality is a joker.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 5, 2018 12:09:35 GMT
Please, fool! It has nothing to do with wanting Finn to be a Marty Stu. He acts like Jar Jar Binks, not a Stormtrooper. Just act like a freaking Stormtrooper! It's not that hard. What, a mook who can't aim? The Stomrtroopers have always been jokes in SW. This idea he should be some emotionless warrior instead of someone with a personality is a joker. They've never been jokes. Just soldiers with occasionally bad aim. Anyone who tries to say that it's within character for a Stormtrooper to act like Jar Jar Binks or a Disney stooge is spouting a bunch of ridiculous...
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