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Post by simplemoviecommenter on Mar 31, 2018 16:49:27 GMT
Not really, he was Vader's master (how did he become his master?), he rules the Empire (How did he become ruler?) and has Dark Side powers (How?). Nothing about him was explained until the PT. Taken apart like that, he and Snoke are very similar. Stop. The situation with Palpatine and Snoke is NOT similar at all. This comparison has to stop. The OT was brand new and the early beginnings of Star Wars. It was not a sequel or a prequel to anything. It had no sequels or prequels at the time. The setting was entirely new and young. The status quo was that the Empire was ruling over the galaxy for decades. We knew NOTHING about the timeline BEFORE the OT because at the time there was nothing. Because of no past, no PT, we had no reason to question Palpatine's existence because there was nothing to question, nothing to create inconsistency, and the entire plot was not dependent on knowing the hows and whys about him. They're not really critically important or relevant. How did he become Vader's master? Not relevant, he is master. How did he become ruler? Not relevant. He is the ruler. How does he have Dark Side powers? Not relevant, and you might as well ask how does Vader and Luke and Obi-wan and Yoda have powers. Snoke is a Sequel. To the OT. Where the good guys just beat the bad guys. Where presumably they go on to create a New Republic and a New Jedi Order. Presumably they would now be vigilant about their enemies, especially Dark Siders. So how the fuck did Snoke not get noticed by the good guys? Because the writing gave the Idiot Ball to the good guys. EDIT: And most of your questions about Palpatine get sufficiently answered in ANH dialogue, by Obi-wan, and by the Death Star meeting of Imperials.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 16:50:14 GMT
We don't know much about the Empire in the OT either, just that...they're an Evil Empire that wants to control the Galaxy. We know nothing about how they took over in the first place either. We know more about them than we do The First Order. We may not know exactly how the Empire arose, but we understand other key components of its origin. For instance, Palpatine started it. And we know that his motivations were partially religious. And we have a partial understanding of how he was able to take control and the events that led to the formation of the Empire. Where is any of that in the OT? By the movies, Snoke did. As for what they want, it's control of the Galaxy. The OT never gave us a single explanation of how Palpatine took over anything either. I don't know where you get the religion thing for Palpatine. As for Snoke, his is the motive of any dictator.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 16:51:43 GMT
The same as any of the Rebel Starships, fighters and general equipment given how all of that had to be second hand stuff too...which didn't stop the Rebels from USING them anyways. Nor did they explain why the Rebels never considered setting up their own secret factories or cloning facilities. The Galaxy is a big place to hide such things. Dats really not true. With da exception of da Y-wing fighters none of the Rebels ships are leftovers from da Clone Wars. And da Y-wing fighters were considered elite ships during da Clone Wars. Da original trilogy versions are heavily modified If they aren't leftovers, where did the Rebels get them then? What's the explanation of them having up to date stuff? And if they can use leftover elite Y-Wings they can use powerful leftover CIS Droids like the Destroyers which could put up a good fight.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 16:53:49 GMT
Not really, he was Vader's master (how did he become his master?), he rules the Empire (How did he become ruler?) and has Dark Side powers (How?). Nothing about him was explained until the PT. Taken apart like that, he and Snoke are very similar. Snoke is a Sequel. To the OT. Where the good guys just beat the bad guys. Where presumably they go on to create a New Republic and a New Jedi Order. Presumably they would now be vigilant about their enemies, especially Dark Siders. So how the fuck did Snoke not get noticed by the good guys? Because the writing gave the Idiot Ball to the good guys. This is another innate difficulty the ST has to deal with, OT fans just can't accept that the OT characters couldn't handle any new threats and that there could BE any new threats at all. There were like 30 years between the OT and ST, time enough for stuff to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 17:48:01 GMT
Dats really not true. With da exception of da Y-wing fighters none of the Rebels ships are leftovers from da Clone Wars. And da Y-wing fighters were considered elite ships during da Clone Wars. Da original trilogy versions are heavily modified If they aren't leftovers, where did the Rebels get them then? What's the explanation of them having up to date stuff? And if they can use leftover elite Y-Wings they can use powerful leftover CIS Droids like the Destroyers which could put up a good fight. They'sa came from planets that joined da Rebellion. And from some planets who were still pretending to be a part of the Empire while secretly providing thems. As far as da CIS droids: like meesa said, thems were all shut down at da end of da Clone Wars. Decommissioned, scrapped, and melted down. Do yousen self a favor. Watch Star Wars Rebels animated series, season 3, episode 5. It's titled "The Last Battle". Should be easy enough to find on YouTube or someplace.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 17:52:49 GMT
We know more about them than we do The First Order. We may not know exactly how the Empire arose, but we understand other key components of its origin. For instance, Palpatine started it. And we know that his motivations were partially religious. And we have a partial understanding of how he was able to take control and the events that led to the formation of the Empire. Where is any of that in the OT? We know that Palpatine started it because we know the Empire is less than one generation old (via Kenobi's dialogue in ANH), we know that he's the leader (via ANH dialogue), we know that he is the one dismantling the remnants of the old order (via ANH dialogue), etc. But the very fact that it's called "The Empire" and that he is "The Emperor" should help us parse this together. We know that his motivation was religious per Tarkin's dialogue in ANH combined with the revelation that he is a dark side master and that he has a council of religious-looking advisors in ROTJ. And we partially know how the Empire was able to take control of events due, again, to Kenobi's dialogue in ANH. The Jedi were hunted down and destroyed. Really? Which scene reveals this in the movies? There are none. And in the books that are controlled by the same company and steering committee, no, he was not at all involved in the formation of the First Order. None of the people who started the First Order are even around by the time TFA's timeline starts! That's another reason why this is frustrating. But WHY do they want control of the galaxy? You don't risk death unless you have a reason. Also, yes the OT did give us an explanation of how Palpatine took over. See above. Based on what scene? The only two things the movies reveal about Snoke's motivations: a.) destroy the Republic, b.) destroy Luke, c.) make something out of Kylo. The movies do nothing to show us why he wants to destroy the Republic. The motivation for making something out of Kylo is self-evident, but even that doesn't really get explored. And the only reason to destroy Luke is to prevent the return of the Jedi. So, yeah, we know Snoke wants power, but why does he want power?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 17:54:55 GMT
Snoke is a Sequel. To the OT. Where the good guys just beat the bad guys. Where presumably they go on to create a New Republic and a New Jedi Order. Presumably they would now be vigilant about their enemies, especially Dark Siders. So how the fuck did Snoke not get noticed by the good guys? Because the writing gave the Idiot Ball to the good guys. This is another innate difficulty the ST has to deal with, OT fans just can't accept that the OT characters couldn't handle any new threats and that there could BE any new threats at all. There were like 30 years between the OT and ST, time enough for stuff to happen. Wrong! The thing I wanted more than anything else was for them to fail and for a great rationale for their failure to be revealed onscreen. See my avatar.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 17:54:58 GMT
If they aren't leftovers, where did the Rebels get them then? What's the explanation of them having up to date stuff? And if they can use leftover elite Y-Wings they can use powerful leftover CIS Droids like the Destroyers which could put up a good fight. They'sa came from planets that joined da Rebellion. And from some planets who were still pretending to be a part of the Empire while secretly providing thems. As far as da CIS droids: like meesa said, thems were all shut down at da end of da Clone Wars. Decommissioned, scrapped, and melted down. Do yousen self a favor. Watch Star Wars Rebels animated series, season 3, episode 5. It's titled "The Last Battle". Should be easy enough to find on YouTube or someplace. Then there should've been Battle Droids supplied from the leftover Separatist worlds who would've been just as unhappy with the Empire as anyone else (even more unhappy, reall). I'm just trying to make the point that if the OT didn't cover everything from the PT, then the idea that there was another Force User out there who wasn't with Palpatine shouldn't be any more unbelievable.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 17:58:09 GMT
Where is any of that in the OT? We know that Palpatine started it because we know the Empire is less than one generation old (via Kenobi's dialogue in ANH), we know that he's the leader (via ANH dialogue), we know that he is the one dismantling the remnants of the old order (via ANH dialogue), etc. But the very fact that it's called "The Empire" and that he is "The Emperor" should help us parse this together. We know that his motivation was religious per Tarkin's dialogue in ANH combined with the revelation that he is a dark side master and that he has a council of religious-looking advisors in ROTJ. And we partially know how the Empire was able to take control of events due, again, to Kenobi's dialogue in ANH. The Jedi were hunted down and destroyed. Hunting down and destroying the Jedi was to explain what happened to the Jedi, it says nothing about how Palpatine built his Empire and conquered the Galaxy. Same place the OT explicitly tells us absolutely everything about how Palpatine built his Empire and every step of his takeover. Same reason any power-hungry asshole wants power. Same reason the OT gave us explicitly on why Palpatine did anything. I rewatched ANH hope and it says nothing about any religious reasons why he does stuff.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 17:58:47 GMT
This is another innate difficulty the ST has to deal with, OT fans just can't accept that the OT characters couldn't handle any new threats and that there could BE any new threats at all. There were like 30 years between the OT and ST, time enough for stuff to happen. Wrong! The thing I wanted more than anything else was for them to fail and for a great rationale for their failure to be revealed onscreen. See my avatar. No rationale presented would've been good enough for OT fans to accept.
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Post by audiosane on Mar 31, 2018 18:14:09 GMT
Do you remember the debate of how did Maz get Luke Skywalker's lightsaber? Maz said "A story for another time". Abrams wrote that. And despite the insistence that it would be explained in TLJ by TFA defenders it never happened. Do you remember Rey insisting that she had to return to Jakku because she needed to wait for her parents and find their identity? Do you remember how much of a theme knowing who Rey's parents were was in both TFA and the first half of TLJ? Abrams wrote it that way because he wanted us to ask those questions to create interest in her character. Even more notable, do you remember the constant subtle hints of the importance of Rey's identity? Kylo said "What girl?!?" Han mentioned "There's this girl..." Maz: "Who's the girl?" Abrams wrote that and framed that. Remember Snoke's detailed and intimate knowledge of events in the OT? Abrams wrote him to be at least this hidden but keen observer with some kind of connection to the events of the OT. But he never had a story as to how or why. When Johnson went to Abrams for answers on Rey's parents identity, Abrams had nothing. When Rian Johnson went to Abrams about the significance of the lightsaber, Abrams had nothing. When Rian went to Abrams about Snoke's backstory... nothing. When he looked for answers about why Rey was this "girl" that that had some secret significance or connection that everyone knew about... nothing! Johnson got nothing because Abrams wrote all of that without ever having an idea or perception of what the answers were. "What girl?!?" and "Who's the girl?" were fake storylines that created intrigue... better known as Abrams mystery box. And when Abrams gave Rian Johnson no answers, he just wrote a mess of a movie that closed out most of Abrams fake storylines, shoehorned Luke Skywalker's characterization for contrived purposes of putting all the shine on Reylo... and moved forward with Reylo and some heel side stories. Now Abrams is making episode IX, and some people still think that he's going to provide answers. If he has any influence over the writing... don't hold your breath. Abrams screwed over Star Wars with his dumb, empty mystery box. Rian screwed over Star Wars by not using this golden opportunity to at least plug in some cool fan theories, like most of us would've done. Kennedy screwed over Star Wars by first hiring a director who loves mystery boxes, then a director for the sequel who thought it was a good idea to subvert or ignore them. Kennedy, Disney, etc. thought it was a good idea to hire the director of the dumbed down rehash blockbuster Jurassic World to do IX before dumping him and replacing him with Abrams. I hope Abrams fucks up IX, Rian fucks up his SW trilogy and Kennedy gets canned as Lucasfilm president. They all deserve it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 18:22:58 GMT
They'sa came from planets that joined da Rebellion. And from some planets who were still pretending to be a part of the Empire while secretly providing thems. As far as da CIS droids: like meesa said, thems were all shut down at da end of da Clone Wars. Decommissioned, scrapped, and melted down. Do yousen self a favor. Watch Star Wars Rebels animated series, season 3, episode 5. It's titled "The Last Battle". Should be easy enough to find on YouTube or someplace. Then there should've been Battle Droids supplied from the leftover Separatist worlds who would've been just as unhappy with the Empire as anyone else (even more unhappy, reall). I'm just trying to make the point that if the OT didn't cover everything from the PT, then the idea that there was another Force User out there who wasn't with Palpatine shouldn't be any more unbelievable. Da problem with yousen argument is dat #1 - there are plausible reasons surrounding da battle droids, and explanations already given. #2 - Yousa don't tie a major villain like Snoke to OT and PT events in da dialogue of da movies, then give NO exposition. It wasn't even necessary to tie Snoke to it. They could've just made his dialogue about events dat happened in da Unknown Region. But they'sa were to lazy to do dat. Bad, lazy writing. Lazy construction of a major character.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 18:26:26 GMT
Then there should've been Battle Droids supplied from the leftover Separatist worlds who would've been just as unhappy with the Empire as anyone else (even more unhappy, reall). I'm just trying to make the point that if the OT didn't cover everything from the PT, then the idea that there was another Force User out there who wasn't with Palpatine shouldn't be any more unbelievable. Da problem with yousen argument is dat #1 - there are plausible reasons surrounding da battle droids, and explanations already given. None explicitly within the OT. It took them years to give us any kind of explanation in the TV shows. Please, even if they had said he was some Force-User from outside known space there'd still be complaints. Hell, the entire First Order could've been Invaders from another Galaxy attacking the SW one and there'd be complaints!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 18:31:20 GMT
We know that Palpatine started it because we know the Empire is less than one generation old (via Kenobi's dialogue in ANH), we know that he's the leader (via ANH dialogue), we know that he is the one dismantling the remnants of the old order (via ANH dialogue), etc. But the very fact that it's called "The Empire" and that he is "The Emperor" should help us parse this together. We know that his motivation was religious per Tarkin's dialogue in ANH combined with the revelation that he is a dark side master and that he has a council of religious-looking advisors in ROTJ. And we partially know how the Empire was able to take control of events due, again, to Kenobi's dialogue in ANH. The Jedi were hunted down and destroyed. Hunting down and destroying the Jedi was to explain what happened to the Jedi, it says nothing about how Palpatine built his Empire and conquered the Galaxy. Of course it does. The Jedi were the Republic's guardians of peace and stability. Palpatine had them hunted down and killed. Removing the impediment to control...allows for one to take control. Which is where? Which is what? Watch again. Pay attention to Tarkin's dialogue where we find out that Vader's motivations are religious. Then watch ROTJ where we discover Palpatine's are as well. We don't have to hear the word "Sith" or even think of it in those terms if we don't want to. We can simply look at what they are doing, which is the inverse of what the Jedi were doing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 19:22:00 GMT
Da problem with yousen argument is dat #1 - there are plausible reasons surrounding da battle droids, and explanations already given. None explicitly within the OT. It took them years to give us any kind of explanation in the TV shows. Please, even if they had said he was some Force-User from outside known space there'd still be complaints. Hell, the entire First Order could've been Invaders from another Galaxy attacking the SW one and there'd be complaints! Dats a lame excuse. And if you read da reasons for complaints on how da Snoke character was handled you'd know dat there would be a lot less complaints if thems did it da way meesa suggested.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 19:34:02 GMT
Wrong! The thing I wanted more than anything else was for them to fail and for a great rationale for their failure to be revealed onscreen. See my avatar. No rationale presented would've been good enough for OT fans to accept. Not true for this SW fan. Again, see my avatar. I was counting on their failure.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 21:34:50 GMT
Hunting down and destroying the Jedi was to explain what happened to the Jedi, it says nothing about how Palpatine built his Empire and conquered the Galaxy. Of course it does. The Jedi were the Republic's guardians of peace and stability. Palpatine had them hunted down and killed. Removing the impediment to control...allows for one to take control. How? The Rebels have their own ships which means whoever was around before Palpatine did too. Where did he get his own armies and armadas to hunt down the Jedi with? None of this was mentioned in the OT. Nowhere. If the OT can do it then so can the ST. Because they're power hungry assholes.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 21:50:04 GMT
None explicitly within the OT. It took them years to give us any kind of explanation in the TV shows. Please, even if they had said he was some Force-User from outside known space there'd still be complaints. Hell, the entire First Order could've been Invaders from another Galaxy attacking the SW one and there'd be complaints! Dats a lame excuse. Not really, the ST was in a pretty crappy situation. Either try something new and fail spectacularly because OT fans are already upset that new movies are being at all, or go for something safe and familiar that appeal to enough new audience members to give the ST its own fanbase and STILL offend the OT fans because they're pissed the new movies are getting their own fans. If Snoke HAD come from the Unknown Regions, then the complaint would just be that he came out of nowhere.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 21:51:01 GMT
No rationale presented would've been good enough for OT fans to accept. Not true for this SW fan. Again, see my avatar. I was counting on their failure. Then you should be fine with the ST doing so. But I doubt any explanation they gave would've been enough to please you.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Mar 31, 2018 22:35:25 GMT
Not really, the ST was in a pretty crappy situation. Either try something new and fail spectacularly because OT fans are already upset that new movies are being at all, or go for something safe and familiar that appeal to enough new audience members to give the ST its own fanbase and STILL offend the OT fans because they're pissed the new movies are getting their own fans. If Snoke HAD come from the Unknown Regions, then the complaint would just be that he came out of nowhere. @captaintarpals is right. You're making up a bunch of lame excuses. OT fans never opposed these movies being made. And they could care less about them getting fans. They're not against that either. These are fake storylines from Rey fanatics and exclusive ST fans to deflect from the real reasons. But it's not surprising that they resort to fake storylines about the criticism when the movies are full of fake storylines themselves.
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