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Post by simplemoviecommenter on Apr 1, 2018 17:12:45 GMT
Guys, please don't make quote pyramids and just quote the whole damn posts.
EDIT: Or just *snip* it since you can just click on "X Minutes Ago" to get to the post.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Apr 1, 2018 17:15:52 GMT
Guys, please don't make quote pyramids
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 1, 2018 17:41:36 GMT
Guys, please don't make quote pyramids and just quote the whole damn posts. I'm a little rusty but I'll try.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 1, 2018 17:41:55 GMT
But it still gave us nothing on his origins, just like Snoke. Obviously you're missing the point. The story never gave us a reason to want or need to know the Emperors backstory. But that was not the case with Snoke. How are the cases different? Because one is a sequel? Which mainly come down to "They didn't spoonfed us exactly how everything went for 30 years." They mentioned Palpatine in ANH and we saw him in ESB. Hardly, it just means we understand how she feels when she's let down by the truth. Having it turn out that a guy ISN'T getting some generic heroic backstory but instead has to persevere in spite of that? Sounds imaginative. That they showed us. It's hardly different from how Vader kept popping up during his and Luke's fight at Cloud City. Except she clearly wasn't shaken up onscreen.[/quote] You need to see her say "Wow, that shook me up..." But there IS still a difference between a guy escaping a stomach off screen and a piece of equipment getting passed around over 30 years. Which can happen fast. Luke himself said he only thought about it quickly and threw that thought away. So now the villain must also be infallible. Same way you can't prove Leia couldn't use the force to fly or survive vacuum for a few seconds. Not all at once. And they were old rickety things not moving terribly well. The whole point is that he tries to be Vader and can't pull it off. Making him infallible kind of ruins that. It has a lot to do with it. Kylo wasn't that trained, really. He hasn't had Jedi to fight to prove his ability against. And anyways, fear and all that other stuff never slowed down Anakin.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 1, 2018 18:26:42 GMT
Obviously you're missing the point. The story never gave us a reason to want or need to know the Emperors backstory. But that was not the case with Snoke. How are the cases different? Because one is a sequel? I already outlined how it is different. Go back over previous posts and absorb it. I'm not here to solve comprehension problems on your part. No it doesn't. A gave a variety of examples that have nothing to do with backstory. And the ones that do aren't on a spoon feeding level. Don't tell me you're one of those idiots who thinks that any exposition is spoon feeding! If you didn't gather that I outlined many other things that are flaws outside of exposition or "spoon feeding" then you have serious comprehension problems. They mentioned Palpatine in ANH and we saw him in ESB.[/quote] I already explained that TESB cameo was adequately expositioned, and barely had anything to do with the plot at that. I'm not going to babysit your comprehension issues. It means much more than that. It's a primary way of getting the audience to care about your character. And if you sucker people with that then you fail to get them to care about the character. But if they did that to Rey you would say that they overdid it and the level of it was unnecessary and they slighted her because she is a female. Hypocritical much? It's very different because once they exit the building in TFA, there's no maze of hallways and floor levels. There's just open forest. There's no way a limping person behind 2 running people who know their way, could get ahead of them. A thousand contrived, lame excuses will never explain it no matter how hard you try. Lol Except she clearly wasn't shaken up onscreen.[/quote] You need to see her say "Wow, that shook me up..."[/quote] If is acting more alert than Finn and Rose (which she was) what more do you need. Phasma was alert and focused and came charging down the hallway. Finn and Rose were getting up off the floor and squinting. Stop embarrassing yourself. Any idiot can deduce that Phasma was not shook up onscreen. And even she was it doesn't explain how she got down a hallway. Did you see TESB? Did see what happened to the lightsaber? There's no difference in the amount of improbability. And that's the point. Which can happen fast. Luke himself said he only thought about it quickly and threw that thought away. So now the villain must also be infallible. Same way you can't prove Leia couldn't use the force to fly or survive vacuum for a few seconds.[/quote] She was unconscious. And freezing and death in space is instantaneous anyway. Are not able to comprehend what unconscious means? Lol Not all at once. And they were old rickety things not moving terribly well.[/quote] But still a much harder target to hit than someone walking at one half a mile per hour. You should seriously see a doctor about comprehension deficiency. The whole point is that he tries to be Vader and can't pull it off. Making him infallible kind of ruins that. It has a lot to do with it. Kylo wasn't that trained, really. He hasn't had Jedi to fight to prove his ability against. And anyways, fear and all that other stuff never slowed down Anakin.[/quote] It's clear that I'm talking to a person who doesn't even have the comprehension ability of a 4 year old. I'm not your doctor. It's no wonder you like this slop! It takes a person with severe comprehension problems to think that it's quality storytelling. I've got better conversations to be had than babysitting your comprehension deficiencies.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 1, 2018 23:14:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 13:21:07 GMT
Not true for this SW fan. Again, see my avatar. I was counting on their failure. Then you should be fine with the ST doing so. But I doubt any explanation they gave would've been enough to please you. Again, see my avatar. There could have been a fantastic explanation. This could have been my favorite trilogy. It had the potential to be even better than the OT for me.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 13:27:24 GMT
Then you should be fine with the ST doing so. But I doubt any explanation they gave would've been enough to please you. Again, see my avatar. There could have been a fantastic explanation. I doubt any explanation they'd give would be enough to please the fandom. I mean, the fandom was already upset at the idea of new characters at all, I doubt they'd be happy with whatever explanation of how the Galaxy got from where it was at the end of the OT to where the ST needed it to be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 13:38:54 GMT
Of course it does. The Jedi were the Republic's guardians of peace and stability. Palpatine had them hunted down and killed. Removing the impediment to control...allows for one to take control. How? The Rebels have their own ships which means whoever was around before Palpatine did too. Where did he get his own armies and armadas to hunt down the Jedi with? None of this was mentioned in the OT Nowhere. If the OT can do it then so can the ST. Because they're power hungry assholes. He talks about the Force a bit and Tarkin mentions its an old religion that Vader believes in. Nothing about it being his motivation to want to rule the Galaxy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 13:43:44 GMT
Nope. Like I said those claims are not being made by OT fans. Show me where they are. You're the only one saying that. Not us. So stop lying. The complaints are that the OT characters were mischaracterized and "shafted". How are they shafted? Because they were able to handle the Empire years ago but can't handle the First Order now when they're even stronger than they were as Rebels, and the struggle against the First Order is the story of the new characters like Rey and Finn. Wrong, per canon. You're way off-base about all of this I'm afraid. I was a TFA slappy, so your "OT fans just didn't want an ST" whining is provably false.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 13:45:03 GMT
Yeah! And I've heard these lying accusations without it ever being backed up before! Just like I've heard the "Oh, OT fans don't hate the idea of new characters and the OT ones no longer being the Epic Heroes of the Star Wars Saga!" lie before. Show me any OT fans who weren't against Rey and Finn's mere existence. Then YOU'LL have a leg to stand on. If OT fans didn't hate Rey for the simple fact she was the new lead, we wouldn't have all this "She's a SJW Creation! She's a Mary Sue!" stuff. Right here, boss.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 13:46:39 GMT
How? The Rebels have their own ships which means whoever was around before Palpatine did too. Where did he get his own armies and armadas to hunt down the Jedi with? None of this was mentioned in the OT Nowhere. If the OT can do it then so can the ST. Because they're power hungry assholes. He talks about the Force a bit and Tarkin mentions its an old religion that Vader believes in. Nothing about it being his motivation to want to rule the Galaxy. But there was more to the Republic than the Jedi, what about all the soldiers the Republic itself would've had? What happened to them? Was the Empire a movement within the Galaxy or from somewhere else? It wasn't explained. They don't say that the Emperor started the Empire, just that he presently rules it. Hell, the original idea would've been that he was just a figurehead. Why do they want power? What kind of Galaxy would they run? Did the OT tell us these things beyond "I use the Dark side"? Hell, "The Dark Side makes me want to rule the Galaxy" would be a cop-out if the ST used that too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 13:48:01 GMT
The SJWism is strong with formersam. Apparently if the lead isn't white and male then the movie must be SJW. Or if there are any major characters who aren't white. Hell, I remember the poor kid who played Flash Thompson in the last Spider-Man movie got death threats because he wasn't white. That's cute how you've the been the one bringing up accusations of sexism throughout the thread as if anyone here has made a sexist argument.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 13:49:49 GMT
Apparently if the lead isn't white and male then the movie must be SJW. Or if there are any major characters who aren't white. Hell, I remember the poor kid who played Flash Thompson in the last Spider-Man movie got death threats because he wasn't white. That's cute how you've the been the one bringing up accusations of sexism throughout the thread as if anyone here has made a sexist argument. Anytime anyone calls Rey a Mary Sue, it's sexism. No one minded Luke after all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 13:57:57 GMT
Again, see my avatar. There could have been a fantastic explanation. I doubt any explanation they'd give would be enough to please the fandom. I mean, the fandom was already upset at the idea of new characters at all, I doubt they'd be happy with whatever explanation of how the Galaxy got from where it was at the end of the OT to where the ST needed it to be. Ask the board. Maybe instead of continuing to post the same two thoughts again and again, you should ask a question and then listen to the nuanced responses. Ha, especially in hindsight. Ask the board if the Snoke = Plagueis theme doesn't tickle their fancy now. Luke ran away because Plagueis was just too powerful and Luke needed to take the next step up in archaic knowledge to find a way to defeat him (thus, the temple, tomes, etc.), not because Luke is a whiny old bitch who did the impossible TWICE, but now all of a sudden can't handle a little guilt. And that's just one example of how the story could have been so much better if there was an understandable, reliable villain behind the tension. Instead, we have a completely indecipherable villain who provides not one ounce of substance for why there is tension. Don't take my word for it, though. Ask the board.
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Post by ryboto on Apr 2, 2018 14:09:06 GMT
But there was more to the Republic than the Jedi, what about all the soldiers the Republic itself would've had? What happened to them? Was the Empire a movement within the Galaxy or from somewhere else? It wasn't explained. They don't say that the Emperor started the Empire, just that he presently rules it. Hell, the original idea would've been that he was just a figurehead. Why do they want power? What kind of Galaxy would they run? Did the OT tell us these things beyond "I use the Dark side"? Hell, "The Dark Side makes me want to rule the Galaxy" would be a cop-out if the ST used that too. The point you're missing, is that in the OT, the answers to those questions aren't necessary to understand what happens in each story. Sure, you could wonder, but the exposition in the film establishes 'rules', and that the Emperor rules the Empire and that he started it and etc- it's all just fact and secondary to the story that's being told. On the other hand, Snoke and Kylo are the antagonists. They're brought up and made to be these grand enemies with evil plans. They are teased as mysterious and methodical...I mean, they built a Republic obliterating weapon...must have taken years? Point is, their motivations are never even hinted at. Why does Kylo idolize Vader when he eventually sheds that skin to die as Anakin? How did Snoke go unnoticed all this time if he's a super dark side villain? This movie follows the OT, so these questions are in the forefront of the story - not the case in the OT, where the characters are set, and the story takes the forefront. The ST world building has been non existent. Given a galactic group of Rebels could overthrow an Empire, I still don't understand how a galactic resistance alongside a newly established galactic republic can't detect/destroy/put up a fight against this group that should be many times smaller than the combined power of the allied worlds. Apparently those that enjoyed the movie give this whole thought process a pass.
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Post by ryboto on Apr 2, 2018 14:12:04 GMT
That's cute how you've the been the one bringing up accusations of sexism throughout the thread as if anyone here has made a sexist argument. Anytime anyone calls Rey a Mary Sue, it's sexism. No one minded Luke after all. The character is a Mary Sue and it is not sexist to say so. The character is a poorly written super person. The fact that she supposedly identifies as a woman means nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 14:14:13 GMT
But there was more to the Republic than the Jedi, what about all the soldiers the Republic itself would've had? Who said anything about Republic soldiers in the OT? No one. You're making stuff up. That doesn't matter. The burden of the argument is on you to provide how more information was provided about the First Order's origins/motivations than the Empire's. So if you're going to cherry-pick things that weren't revealed about the Empire in the OT, then you must match those allegations where the inverse is true about the First Order. So let's hear it. They don't need to . As I've already stated, the Empire is in its first generation. This is PROVEN in OT dialogue. It's not hard to see how this works, but I'll lay it out here real easy for you. These are facts from the OT that form a chain for the viewer to draw a complete picture of events from. Here we go: Before the dark days, before the Empire, the Jedi maintained peace for the Republic. Vader hunted down and destroyed the Jedi. Vader is still alive, as are two of the Jedi from the purge, i.e., this is the SAME GENERATION of people. The Emperor is Vader's dark side master. Vader follows the Emperor's orders. Ipso facto, the Emperor gave the order to hunt down the Jedi, thus, it was the Emperor who launched the assault on the Republic. I've already answered that question. Why don't you try answering it now for Snoke or the First Order (take your pick) since you continue to dodge supplying any evidence for the side that you're actually defending. The Sith is an Order. It has a purpose, rules, etc. Now don't even bother trying to attack my argument about "Sith" stuff until you at least take a crack at defending your position on The First Order and Snoke by actually telling us something about them instead of trying to tear down the OT lore. You're right. Good thing the OT didn't do that. But hell, if we even knew that Snoke wanted to rule simply to "promote the dark side," that'd be a start. But we don't even know THAT!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 14:15:18 GMT
That's cute how you've the been the one bringing up accusations of sexism throughout the thread as if anyone here has made a sexist argument. Anytime anyone calls Rey a Mary Sue, it's sexism. No one minded Luke after all. Okay. Well, by that measure of fairness, anytime anyone accuses someone with a Mary Sue argument as being sexist, that person is a fucking douche.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 2, 2018 14:17:25 GMT
Damn, formersamhmd out of his element off the MCU boards and getting his ass handed to him here. This is a bloodbath...
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