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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 3:27:14 GMT
Johnson only exposed Abrams dead end mystery box. He didn't destroy what JJ did, he just exposed it as being empty in the first place. Blank slate? The reality is that there's no slate! That's Jar Jar Abrams talent - tricking the audience into seeing a slate that was never really there. And that'll be even more apparent after episode IX comes out. i did not think the TFA had many mysteries, at least none i spent my days thinking about. What you are seeing is trilogy without a plan, making it up as go along rarely works out. Okay. I suppose you could look at it that way. I agree that they're making it up as they go along. But let me refresh your memory on the mystery: * Who are Rey's parents? * Why did Luke leave? Hiding or looking for something? * Why was Kylo praying to Vader's helmet? * How did Snoke come to rule the First Order? * How did Snoke know Kylo and Luke? * How does Snoke know everything about PT/OT events? * Who are the Knights of Ren? * How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? * Why does Rey not need training? * What turned Kylo to the Darkside specifically? Most of that mystery wasn't answered. And some of it we already know never will be despite one more movie coming.
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Post by darkpast on Apr 3, 2018 6:59:22 GMT
i did not think the TFA had many mysteries, at least none i spent my days thinking about. What you are seeing is trilogy without a plan, making it up as go along rarely works out. Okay. I suppose you could look at it that way. I agree that they're making it up as they go along. But let me refresh your memory on the mystery: * Who are Rey's parents? * Why did Luke leave? Hiding or looking for something? * Why was Kylo praying to Vader's helmet? * How did Snoke come to rule the First Order? * How did Snoke know Kylo and Luke? * How does Snoke know everything about PT/OT events? * Who are the Knights of Ren? * How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? * Why does Rey not need training? * What turned Kylo to the Darkside specifically? Most of that mystery wasn't answered. And some of it we already know never will be despite one more movie coming. Why Kylo was praying? Nobody is talking about that or think its a mystery I'd rather know how Finn broke free of his brainwashing
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 11:04:10 GMT
They wanted to see them team up just so Luke could school Rey at every turn and make it clear she's a useless hanger on and Luke was still top dog. Or have her get turned into a damsel who needed rescuing from the older hero just to show she's inadequate next to him. This is like the negativity with Iron Man being in Spider-Man Homecoming even though he turned out to just be in it for a few minutes. That the film portrayed him as equal to or better than Spidey was apparently unforgivable, and fans of the older Raimi movies apparently would've wanted him to be in the movie so Peter could beat him up or something. If they couldn't handle the First Order on their own, then they're automatically inept from how they were in the OT. You can't get around that. OT fans would see him die and think "They only killed him off to make way for the new characters! In retaliation, I will hate the new characters!" Wrong on all counts! I talk to other OT fans all the time and none of what you said reflects their opinion. They clearly didn't want the new characters to be the heroes of the ST, for one thing.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 3, 2018 12:08:29 GMT
Wrong on all counts! I talk to other OT fans all the time and none of what you said reflects their opinion. They clearly didn't want the new characters to be the heroes of the ST, for one thing. You've got this black or white view of the situation and of the possibilities that could have been with regards to the ST story. Pretty narrow minded.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 12:31:44 GMT
They clearly didn't want the new characters to be the heroes of the ST, for one thing. You've got this black or white view of the situation and of the possibilities that could have been with regards to the ST story. Pretty narrow minded. I know my fandoms and I know my no-win scenarios. The ST is just the latest of such situations. It isn't like Wars really lends itself to a larger variety of storytelling, thanks to the Prequels forever tainting any "outside the box" possibilities. I brought up the idea of doing something different like having a bunch of Sith Ghosts wake up and go on a rampage and that got derided too.
So if "Ancient Sith Spirits" are a bad idea, "Invaders from outside the Galaxy" are a bad idea, what else is there but "Republic vs Neo-Empire"?
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 3, 2018 12:45:56 GMT
You've got this black or white view of the situation and of the possibilities that could have been with regards to the ST story. Pretty narrow minded. I know my fandoms and I know my no-win scenarios. The ST is just the latest of such situations. It isn't like Wars really lends itself to a larger variety of storytelling, thanks to the Prequels forever tainting any "outside the box" possibilities. I brought up the idea of doing something different like having a bunch of Sith Ghosts wake up and go on a rampage and that got derided too.
So if "Ancient Sith Spirits" are a bad idea, "Invaders from outside the Galaxy" are a bad idea, what else is there but "Republic vs Neo-Empire"?
No, you don't know what you're talking about. The FO could have been done just fine! There is nothing wrong with the PREMISE that TFA proposed. It was the details and the actual story that missed the mark completely. Bad writing, requiring external media to provide exposition, terribly written characters and no respect for the story that came before. Those are the problems. The premise, or idea of Rey, Finn, Kylo, Snoke, the FO, aren't objectionable at first glance, they only become terrible when you apply the direction JJ/KK/RJ went with them.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 12:50:24 GMT
I know my fandoms and I know my no-win scenarios. The ST is just the latest of such situations. It isn't like Wars really lends itself to a larger variety of storytelling, thanks to the Prequels forever tainting any "outside the box" possibilities. I brought up the idea of doing something different like having a bunch of Sith Ghosts wake up and go on a rampage and that got derided too.
So if "Ancient Sith Spirits" are a bad idea, "Invaders from outside the Galaxy" are a bad idea, what else is there but "Republic vs Neo-Empire"?
No, you don't know what you're talking about. The FO could have been done just fine! There is nothing wrong with the PREMISE that TFA proposed. The reaction of OT fans say otherwise. The idea of a Neo-Empire taking on the Republic and the OT characters needing new characters to take over was just inherently repellant to them. If that were true there wouldn't have been any negative reactions to the mere idea of a female protagonist, a black stormtrooper, a Neo-Empire, and the OT characters no longer being the center of attention. But there were. Of course, if they'd mindlessly pandered to the OT fans and made Rey a useless fanboy clinger-on of Lukes', Finn into Lando's son and mainly use the ST characters as jokes to show off how cool the OT characters still are and how the idea of passing the torch to anyone was laughable, then maybe the OT fans wouldn't have complained so much.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 3, 2018 12:59:27 GMT
No, you don't know what you're talking about. The FO could have been done just fine! There is nothing wrong with the PREMISE that TFA proposed. The reaction of OT fans say otherwise. The idea of a Neo-Empire taking on the Republic and the OT characters needing new characters to take over was just inherently repellant to them. If that were true there wouldn't have been any negative reactions to the mere idea of a female protagonist, a black stormtrooper, a Neo-Empire, and the OT characters no longer being the center of attention. But there were. Of course, if they'd mindlessly pandered to the OT fans and made Rey a useless fanboy clinger-on of Lukes', Finn into Lando's son and mainly use the ST characters as jokes to show off how cool the OT characters still are and how the idea of passing the torch to anyone was laughable, then maybe the OT fans wouldn't have complained so much. Who the hell are you even talking about??? A minority of loud objections can confuse you to the actual number of 'fans' that were making such objections. I gave no fucks. I was excited. The trailers had me even more excited. I guarantee you all of the people you're talking to, who now recognize TFA and TLJ for the shit they are, also went in to TFA(and some into TLJ) with that same wide-eyed excitement. I avoided news and spoilers, I only watched trailers and skipped reading comments or analysis. My only expectations were those set by the trailer. You're off base and you're making odd excuses for arguments no one is making.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:01:42 GMT
Okay. I suppose you could look at it that way. I agree that they're making it up as they go along. But let me refresh your memory on the mystery: * Who are Rey's parents? * Why did Luke leave? Hiding or looking for something? * Why was Kylo praying to Vader's helmet? * How did Snoke come to rule the First Order? * How did Snoke know Kylo and Luke? * How does Snoke know everything about PT/OT events? * Who are the Knights of Ren? * How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? * Why does Rey not need training? * What turned Kylo to the Darkside specifically? Most of that mystery wasn't answered. And some of it we already know never will be despite one more movie coming. Why Kylo was praying? Nobody is talking about that or think its a mystery I'd rather know how Finn broke free of his brainwashing Actually people have thought it to be a mystery. There has been a little talk about it. But I think most people gave up on pushing for answers on it because there's just so much other mystery that they either ignored or it fell flat.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 13:02:52 GMT
Who the hell are you even talking about??? People who hate the ST and think the whole thing shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry, but the ST was never going to just be about the OT characters again. Yeah, I don't think so. They were probably loyal fans who were prepared for the worst and just wanted to make sure. They got burned on the PT already, after all. I've spoken with SW fans who were at least honest and upfront over how they thought the idea of the ST was an inherently bad one and the OT should've been left alone.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:04:00 GMT
Wrong on all counts! I talk to other OT fans all the time and none of what you said reflects their opinion. They clearly didn't want the new characters to be the heroes of the ST, for one thing. Wrong. Nope. Not true... We've been over this before.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:13:16 GMT
You've got this black or white view of the situation and of the possibilities that could have been with regards to the ST story. Pretty narrow minded. I know my fandoms and I know my no-win scenarios. The ST is just the latest of such situations. It isn't like Wars really lends itself to a larger variety of storytelling, thanks to the Prequels forever tainting any "outside the box" possibilities. I brought up the idea of doing something different like having a bunch of Sith Ghosts wake up and go on a rampage and that got derided too.
So if "Ancient Sith Spirits" are a bad idea, "Invaders from outside the Galaxy" are a bad idea, what else is there but "Republic vs Neo-Empire"?
You don't know JACK about the SW fanbase! You don't even listen to them. You're busy telling them what they are. I think Jar Jar Binks said it best. You're take on the fanbase is "absolutely nutso"!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 13:21:54 GMT
They clearly didn't want the new characters to be the heroes of the ST, for one thing. Wrong. Nope. Not true... We've been over this before. Please, Ben Solo could've been the protagonist of the ST with Rey as some Renegade Sith Acolyte he's fighting and he'd just get derided for being a fanfic character. Only now instead of a Vader wannabe he's a Luke wannabe.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 13:23:14 GMT
I know my fandoms and I know my no-win scenarios. The ST is just the latest of such situations. It isn't like Wars really lends itself to a larger variety of storytelling, thanks to the Prequels forever tainting any "outside the box" possibilities. I brought up the idea of doing something different like having a bunch of Sith Ghosts wake up and go on a rampage and that got derided too.
So if "Ancient Sith Spirits" are a bad idea, "Invaders from outside the Galaxy" are a bad idea, what else is there but "Republic vs Neo-Empire"?
You don't know JACK about the SW fanbase! You don't even listen to them. I don't listen to their excuses when all they can say is "There were so many other ways of doing the Sequels!" and when questioned none of them can actually explain what a good sequel would be like except "They all lived happily ever after".
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:33:05 GMT
Who the hell are you even talking about??? People who hate the ST and think the whole thing shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry, but the ST was never going to just be about the OT characters again. Nobody was expecting it to only be about them. Nobody. There's no evidence of that in that link you posted. Your claims are all based on your own warped imagination. Then you think wrong because what ryboto said is absolutely true. Those sentiments were expressed all over the old IMDb boards by OT fans. They were expressed on other forums. And they were expressed on this forum when people talked about what they hoped for or expected before TFA was released. But you keep pointing to some obscure posts that have to be found by searching through dozens of pages in one thread on one forum. That's your "evidence" of what the entire OT fanbase allegedly thinks. LULZ The opinions of 3% of the OT fanbase does not represent the entire fanbase. And who the heck are you to say that the other 97% are dishonest?!? Do you have the Force mind probe power like Rey? Did you mind probe the entire OT fanbase? Do you sit around dressed up in a Rey costume imagining that you did?... I'm starting to think that has to be the case. It definitely explains your grasp on SW and the fanbase.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:39:34 GMT
Wrong. Nope. Not true... We've been over this before. Please, Ben Solo could've been the protagonist of the ST with Rey as some Renegade Sith Acolyte he's fighting and he'd just get derided for being a fanfic character. Only now instead of a Vader wannabe he's a Luke wannabe. If Ben Solo was dressed in Luke Skywalker's clothes and walking around with an astromech droid following him that had the exact same color pattern as R2D2... and he had Luke Skywalker's lightsaber and prayed to it... you're darned right he would be a Luke Skywalker wannabe fanfic character! Next idiot argument you want to make?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:42:44 GMT
You don't know JACK about the SW fanbase! You don't even listen to them. I don't listen to their excuses when all they can say is "There were so many other ways of doing the Sequels!" and when questioned none of them can actually explain what a good sequel would be like except "They all lived happily ever after". I don't believe that for a second. I've seen/heard too much evidence otherwise.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 3, 2018 13:45:39 GMT
I don't listen to their excuses when all they can say is "There were so many other ways of doing the Sequels!" and when questioned none of them can actually explain what a good sequel would be like except "They all lived happily ever after". I don't believe that for a second. I've seen/heard too much evidence otherwise. If he's honest in his delusions, it's pathetic. If not, he's an incredibly talented troll. I just don't see what entertainment value it's adding to anyone at this point...
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 13:57:29 GMT
I don't believe that for a second. I've seen/heard too much evidence otherwise. If he's honest in his delusions, it's pathetic. If not, he's an incredibly talented troll. I just don't see what entertainment value it's adding to anyone at this point... If he's honest in his delusions he's probably the most certifiably nutso SW fan I've crossed paths with since the old IMDb days.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 13:58:34 GMT
People who hate the ST and think the whole thing shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry, but the ST was never going to just be about the OT characters again. Nobody was expecting it to only be about them. Nobody. No one was expecting it. They just WANTED it to be all about them with no new characters. And what they hoped for was the OT characters still taking center stage and if there DID have to be any new characters they'd be secondary or sidelined or incompetent so the OT characters would always stay the top dogs. Hoped, although they knew it wouldn't happen. They seem to get to the point of it though. Just like how the "They could have done so much other stuff!" crows keep saying that while NEVER explaining what these grand other storylines could've been.
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