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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 14:02:35 GMT
Please, Ben Solo could've been the protagonist of the ST with Rey as some Renegade Sith Acolyte he's fighting and he'd just get derided for being a fanfic character. Only now instead of a Vader wannabe he's a Luke wannabe. If Ben Solo was dressed in Luke Skywalker's clothes and walking around with an astromech droid following him that had the exact same color pattern as R2D2... and he had Luke Skywalker's lightsaber and prayed to it... you're darned right he would be a Luke Skywalker wannabe fanfic character! And if he DIDN'T dress in Jedi Robes or use a lightsaber modeled on either Anakin's or Luke's or follow Luke's teachings (which are Obi-Wans') then the complaints are just that he's not ENOUGH like Luke or shouldn't have been related to Luke at all. Which gives us Rey.
Or make him like Han and get complaints he's just Han with Jedi powers.
Once again, screwed regardless. No matter WHAT is done the new characters get complained about.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 14:03:32 GMT
I don't listen to their excuses when all they can say is "There were so many other ways of doing the Sequels!" and when questioned none of them can actually explain what a good sequel would be like except "They all lived happily ever after". I don't believe that for a second. I've seen/heard too much evidence otherwise. I've seen/heard too much evidence that keeps going back to "They undid the OT's happy ending!"
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 14:06:22 GMT
If Ben Solo was dressed in Luke Skywalker's clothes and walking around with an astromech droid following him that had the exact same color pattern as R2D2... and he had Luke Skywalker's lightsaber and prayed to it... you're darned right he would be a Luke Skywalker wannabe fanfic character! And if he DIDN'T dress in Jedi Robes or use a lightsaber modeled on either Anakin's or Luke's or follow Luke's teachings (which are Obi-Wans') then the complaints are just that he's not ENOUGH like Luke or shouldn't have been related to Luke at all. Which gives us Rey.
Or make him like Han and get complaints he's just Han with Jedi powers.
Once again, screwed regardless. No matter WHAT is done the new characters get complained about.
Bull crap! Totally bogus and not even worth me saying anything beyond that on because that's how big of a load of bull it is.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 14:22:37 GMT
And if he DIDN'T dress in Jedi Robes or use a lightsaber modeled on either Anakin's or Luke's or follow Luke's teachings (which are Obi-Wans') then the complaints are just that he's not ENOUGH like Luke or shouldn't have been related to Luke at all. Which gives us Rey.
Or make him like Han and get complaints he's just Han with Jedi powers.
Once again, screwed regardless. No matter WHAT is done the new characters get complained about.
Bull crap! Totally bogus and not even worth me saying anything beyond that on because that's how big of a load of bull it is. You're just giving more credence to how unpleasable OT fans are. There's nothing Rey and Kylo could've been that wouldn't offend someone...
...Well, except making them utter incompetent sidekicks to Luke and Han just to reaffirm how awesome Luke and Han are.
I mean, sure, Luke and Han can be the archetypal Boy Hero and the archetypal Scoundrel and no one bats an eye...
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 3, 2018 14:59:08 GMT
It's just the same baseless argument. His claim is that we wanted the OT characters center stage and that's the only reason anyone finds the movies to be bad. So then we have to argue that that's not why we dislike this crap. I think someone should just copy paste one of those long posts that lists all the problems with the films as a response to Sam any time he replies. Troll the troll. I'd do it if I had it clipboarded...
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 15:16:58 GMT
It's just the same baseless argument. His claim is that we wanted the OT characters center stage and that's the only reason anyone finds the movies to be bad. So then we have to argue that that's not why we dislike this crap. I think someone should just copy paste one of those long posts that lists all the problems with the films as a response to Sam any time he replies. Troll the troll. I'd do it if I had it clipboarded... You can't deny that if the ST had made the main characters the OT ones with people like Finn and Rey and Kylo as useless secondary characters who are there just to bumble around then the OT fans would've enjoyed them more.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 15:20:42 GMT
I don't believe that for a second. I've seen/heard too much evidence otherwise. I've seen/heard too much evidence that keeps going back to "They undid the OT's happy ending!" Because they did. It was as if the end of ROTJ never happened. Everyone is doing the exact same things that they were doing between the middle of ANH and the middle of ROTJ. Do I need to outline it for you? Han: At the end of ROTJ Han was a hero, a successful war general, a caring boyfriend to Leia, and a generally more unselfish character. That was the character growth that occurred. But they erased all of that in TFA. In TFA Han is 30 years older but he's the same character that he was in the middle of ANH. Mostly selfish. A struggling smuggler. And in all this time smuggling he is actually an even worse smuggler than he was in the OT! He's still running around hatching up half-baked schemes that burn his business associates, waste his profits, and get bounties posted on him & almost get him and Chewbacca killed. And the pathetic excuse for this lazy writing? Cuz Ben Solo wanted to be Kylo. (insert eye roll here) Do you know who the character Porkins is? Well his backstory is that he was a startup smuggler who turned his skills into becoming a successful trade businessman. Considering Han had become a galaxy wide hero, should've had tons of experience in smuggling at this point in his life, and had become a more thoughtful person in general... a logical character progression for him would be something like what Porkins was when he wasn't an X-wing pilot. You could've had him be that type of character. Rey could've been a hotshot pilot he finds out about and decides to hire her on as part of his crew because he's getting old. Han being a legit and successful trader even gives Rey more incentive to join because she comes from a background of petty crime and slavery and wants to escape it. It also provides her a way to travel the galaxy and look for her parents. Leia: She was probably the most revered hero at the end of ROTJ (besides Luke) and perhaps more well known than Luke. She was also in love with Han and starting to display intuitive Force powers. She would've been a logical leader for the New Republic. But who is she in TFA? She's the same character that she was in TESB. Her change in title even reflected that. She's General Leia now. She's running around the galaxy running towards small battles with the bad guys or running away from them - unfolding in ways copy-and-pasted right out of the OT... including the big ending of ANH with a Death Star battle that uses the same strategy with the storyline and results. A logical character progression could've had Leia having developed some of her Force abilities, especially more mental ones like (for example) Jedi mind trick, etc. A few scenes where she shows off would've made story sense. She should've held a position similar to Supreme Chancellor. An attack on the New Republic that overwhelms their standing armies and navy prompts her to take a more commander-in-chief role given her experience. From there Leia can get more involved in influencing military operations. Perhaps she even takes to using the Force in confrontations. She finds out about Rey and decides to recruit Rey and put her Force talents at the forefront of the threat. There's a rumor that Rey's parents were Force sensitives and wound up joining the side of the threat/bad guys - but now they want to defect. This also establishes motive for Rey getting involved and still trying to find her parents. You can still introduce all kinds of compelling threats in that scenario. They could be Kylo or something/someone else. And if you keep Kylo, no real need to have him be a Vader wannabe since that storyline went absolutely nowhere in the next movie anyway. It's a stinking shame that I can come up with the skeleton of a story that: * allows for keeping the character development of "the happy ending" but also allows for compelling threats * gives the main characters better motives than what we got from Disney * allows for both the OT characters and the ST characters to shine ...and these idiots at Disney have millions of dollars and months to do this. I did a better job than them for free in one morning. It's pathetic. They deserve to be called out on their poor quality, lazy, fanfic garbage.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 15:24:52 GMT
It's just the same baseless argument. His claim is that we wanted the OT characters center stage and that's the only reason anyone finds the movies to be bad. So then we have to argue that that's not why we dislike this crap. I think someone should just copy paste one of those long posts that lists all the problems with the films as a response to Sam any time he replies. Troll the troll. I'd do it if I had it clipboarded... You can't deny that if the ST had made the main characters the OT ones with people like Finn and Rey and Kylo as useless secondary characters who are there just to bumble around then the OT fans would've enjoyed them more. Nope. I just outlined a story draft proving you wrong. Go suck it!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 15:37:08 GMT
Because they did. It was as if the end of ROTJ never happened. Everyone is doing the exact same things that they were doing between the middle of ANH and the middle of ROTJ. That's what happens when a new conflict starts up after a "And they all lived happily ever after" ending. He could've been some Fancy Pants Republic Admiral and it'd still get derided as being OOC and something too far removed from who he was.
So a Prequel style character, the kind that got nothing but derision from the audience.
"Oh look at what Disney did! They turned Leia into some politician and ruined her character!"
Introduce any threats, the complaint of undoing the OT's Happy Ending is still there. Because if their ending was happy, then that means they're in an Era of Permanent Peace with nothing else coming up in their lifetimes. Those are incompatible. Happy Ending means no new threats, even the EU knew this which is why the OT characters always handled things on their own and didn't need help.
You did what I said, which is turn Rey into a useless clinger on to Han or Luke or whoever instead of her own character. She needs them to accomplish anything.
The OT killed off Obi-Wan so Luke could shine.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 15:38:13 GMT
You can't deny that if the ST had made the main characters the OT ones with people like Finn and Rey and Kylo as useless secondary characters who are there just to bumble around then the OT fans would've enjoyed them more. Nope. I just outlined a story draft proving you wrong. Go suck it! And you did what I said, Rey being dependant on Han and/or Leia to accomplish anything and without them she's just spinning her wheels because she's too incompetent to do anything on her own.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 15:45:46 GMT
Because they did. It was as if the end of ROTJ never happened. Everyone is doing the exact same things that they were doing between the middle of ANH and the middle of ROTJ. That's what happens when a new conflict starts up after a "And they all lived happily ever after" ending. He could've been some Fancy Pants Republic Admiral and it'd still get derided as being OOC and something too far removed from who he was. So a Prequel style character, the kind that got nothing but derision from the audience. Introduce any threats, the complaint of undoing the OT's Happy Ending is still there. Because if their ending was happy, then that means they're in an Era of Permanent Peace with nothing else coming up in their lifetimes. Those are incompatible. Happy Ending means no new threats. You did what I said, which is turn Rey into a useless clinger on to Han or Luke or whoever instead of her own character. She needs them to accomplish anything. Nope! Wrong on all counts! And happy ending is definitely compatible with new threats. What do you think the start of the prequels was? It was a thousand year period of a happy ending! There had been a thousand years since the Sith harmed the galaxy. And no, Rey is not a useless clinger in that scenario. Did you not see where I said that Han recruited her for flying skills. He would let her take over flying the Millennium Falcon during the story. Did you not see where I said Leia would recruit Rey and put her at the forefront of stopping the threat? Both those scenarios provide lead action. You're an idiot.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 15:47:22 GMT
Nope. I just outlined a story draft proving you wrong. Go suck it! And you did what I said, Rey being dependant on Han and/or Leia to accomplish anything and without them she's just spinning her wheels because she's too incompetent to do anything on her own. No I didn't. Read it again. In fact, read it 20 more times slowly. Because it's obvious you have the reading comprehension of a blind dog.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 15:52:03 GMT
And happy ending is definitely compatible with new threats. What do you think the start of the prequels was? It was a thousand year period of a happy ending! There had been a thousand years since the Sith harmed the galaxy. Yes, and whoever defeated the Sith died in peace and got their happy ending while the new Sith threat didn't emerge until 1000 years later. You want the ST to preserve the OT's ending, you do the same thing and set it hundreds of years later. Which STILL pisses off the OT fans because they wanted to see the OT characters on screen again! Yes, and you wrote that recruits her from a life of petty crime and slavery she never would've escaped from if not for him. So if not for Han, Rey is spinning her wheels accomplishing nothing.
And this would still insult OT fans because they'd be saying "Well why the Hell would Leia put this nobody we've never heard of and send her to the forefront? Luke should be enough to deal with this on his own, or any other leftover OT character!"
You want to make the OT fans happy, you do what Rogue One did and kill off Rey and Finn at the end of Force Awakens while keeping Han and Luke alive. This gives ST fans some tiny crumbs to munch on and think "Oh, what would have happened if they'd lived?" while maintaining the superiority of the OT characters to keep the OT fans happy.
And since the OT characters are left alive and in charge, OT fans can get passed their disgust at the idea of new characters to think "Well...I guess it wouldn't have been SO bad if they'd survived..."
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 15:58:52 GMT
And happy ending is definitely compatible with new threats. What do you think the start of the prequels was? It was a thousand year period of a happy ending! There had been a thousand years since the Sith harmed the galaxy. Yes, and whoever defeated the Sith died in peace and got their happy ending while the new Sith threat didn't emerge until 1000 years later. You want the ST to preserve the OT's ending, you do the same thing and set it hundreds of years later. Which STILL pisses off the OT fans because they wanted to see the OT characters on screen again! Yes, and you wrote that recruits her from a life of petty crime and slavery she never would've escaped from if not for him. So if not for Han, Rey is spinning her wheels accomplishing nothing. And this would still insult OT fans because they'd be saying "Well why the Hell would Leia put this nobody we've never heard of and send her to the forefront? Luke should be enough to deal with this on his own, or any other leftover OT character!" Nope. None of what you suggested would work or is necessary. And as usual your claims about the fanbase are lies. I remember when the first pictures of new TFA characters were released. Not once did I hear from any OT fans or fanbase source that they hoped the new characters aren't the stars... or they hoped that the new characters didn't take away screen time from Luke, Han, and Leia. Not once! You're a blatant liar.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 16:13:28 GMT
Nope. None of what you suggested would work or is necessary. Then why are there still complaints that the existence of the First Order screwed up the OT's ending? No, it's not because of where the characters are in TFA. Like I edited in above: You want to make the OT fans happy, you do what Rogue One did and kill off Rey and Finn at the end of Force Awakens while keeping Han and Luke alive. This gives ST fans some tiny crumbs to munch on and think "Oh, what would have happened if they'd lived?" while maintaining the superiority of the OT characters to keep the OT fans happy. And since the OT characters are left alive and in charge, OT fans can get past their disgust at the idea of new characters to think "Well...I guess it wouldn't have been SO bad if they'd survived..." You obviously missed out on all the "Star Wars is SJW now!" stuff. They probably hoped they'd all just be sidekick characters and not become real leads until episode 8, or 9...or 12.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 16:32:43 GMT
Nope. None of what you suggested would work or is necessary. Then why are there still complaints that the existence of the First Order screwed up the OT's ending? No, it's not because of where the characters are in TFA. There aren't any such complaints. That's your lie you keep repeating over and over again. That's not how you make OT fans happy because it's not what they want. That's your lie. A lie is a lie no matter how many times you say it. People liked Rogue One because it had far more authenticity to the lore of the saga. Plain and simple. You would know that if you read the comments on fan forums instead of parroting the same lies over and over again. I didn't miss out on it. I already told there was some of that on the original IMDb message board. But those kind of comments were in the minority and clearly distinguishable from objective complaints because the SJW/misogynist stuff was thin in supportive details. People who had genuine complaints outlined their reasons specifically. It's distinguishable by anyone with adult comprehension, which you clearly lack. They didn't say that. So that's just you lying about what they meant. All you do is lie.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 16:48:13 GMT
Then why are there still complaints that the existence of the First Order screwed up the OT's ending? No, it's not because of where the characters are in TFA. There aren't any such complaints. Er, there very much ARE such complaints. The whole "They ruined the happy ending of the OT!" is directly tied to the existence of the First Order. They DIDN'T want a passing of the torch, that much is clear. Since there's no real point to new characters if they aren't to stick around, you might as well just kill them off to get them out of the way. It's reassurance to the OT fans that their characters aren't going anywhere and their torches will never be passed to ANYONE else. Especially not characters George Lucas didn't create. Yeah, shameless pandering to the OT fanbase. Instead of the First Order these characters are fighting the actual Empire, we get Vader back instead of a Vander wannabe, and all the new characters introduced are killed off at the end so they could NEVER threaten the OT characters and their prominence. By contrast, the ST characters aren't going anywhere. And that is something that is just unforgivable. Which doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I'm talking way beyond IMDB. They certainly weren't saying "Okay, these guys will take over from Luke and Han and Leia? I'm fine with that, after all a new story should be about new characters!"
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ryboto
Sophomore
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Post by ryboto on Apr 3, 2018 16:51:36 GMT
DELUSIONS!
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 3, 2018 16:54:38 GMT
Do you remember the debate of how did Maz get Luke Skywalker's lightsaber? Maz said "A story for another time". Abrams wrote that. And despite the insistence that it would be explained in TLJ by TFA defenders it never happened.
Do you remember Rey insisting that she had to return to Jakku because she needed to wait for her parents and find their identity? Do you remember how much of a theme knowing who Rey's parents were was in both TFA and the first half of TLJ? Abrams wrote it that way because he wanted us to ask those questions to create interest in her character.Even more notable, do you remember the constant subtle hints of the importance of Rey's identity? Kylo said "What girl?!?" Han mentioned "There's this girl..." Maz: "Who's the girl?" Abrams wrote that and framed that. Remember Snoke's detailed and intimate knowledge of events in the OT? Abrams wrote him to be at least this hidden but keen observer with some kind of connection to the events of the OT. But he never had a story as to how or why. When Johnson went to Abrams for answers on Rey's parents identity, Abrams had nothing. When Rian Johnson went to Abrams about the significance of the lightsaber, Abrams had nothing. When Rian went to Abrams about Snoke's backstory... nothing. When he looked for answers about why Rey was this "girl" that that had some secret significance or connection that everyone knew about... nothing! Johnson got nothing because Abrams wrote all of that without ever having an idea or perception of what the answers were. "What girl?!?" and "Who's the girl?" were fake storylines that created intrigue... better known as Abrams mystery box. And when Abrams gave Rian Johnson no answers, he just wrote a mess of a movie that closed out most of Abrams fake storylines, shoehorned Luke Skywalker's characterization for contrived purposes of putting all the shine on Reylo... and moved forward with Reylo and some heel side stories. Now Abrams is making episode IX, and some people still think that he's going to provide answers. If he has any influence over the writing... don't hold your breath. Rian Johnson wrote TLJ, not Abrams.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 3, 2018 16:55:56 GMT
To me, none of that would be meaningful without hashing out Snoke first. I just can't get into a story if I don't understand the villain. How much did we know about the Emperor in the OT? Stop using logic, it confuses them.
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