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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 16:24:32 GMT
No, but he did save them when the forces that would become them traveled to the Unknown Regions which earned him respect and power. Enough to eventually take over. Saved them from what? Navigating blindly into the Unknown Regions and whatever dangers were in there. Him being from that Navigation Species did that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 17:14:25 GMT
Navigating blindly into the Unknown Regions and whatever dangers were in there. Him being from that Navigation Species did that. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Quoting wookiepedia will get you in trouble if you don't know what any of it means. The remnants of the Empire did not blindly launch into the Unknown Regions. Plans were already drawn up before Palpatine perished on DS2. The Attendants were made up out of thin air long after it was already established in canon that Palpatine/Thrawn/Gallius Rax/Brendol Hux were the ones responsible for the First Order being able to navigate the Unknown Regions. Yet another thing RJ fucked canon over so he could tell his ridiculous SJW story.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 19:03:50 GMT
Navigating blindly into the Unknown Regions and whatever dangers were in there. Him being from that Navigation Species did that. The Attendants were made up out of thin air long after it was already established in canon that Palpatine/Thrawn/Gallius Rax/Brendol Hux were the ones responsible for the First Order being able to navigate the Unknown Regions. So just like how Darth Vader WASN'T originally Anakin and then he was. Damn that George Lucas for f***ing up the storyline!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 19:41:07 GMT
The Attendants were made up out of thin air long after it was already established in canon that Palpatine/Thrawn/Gallius Rax/Brendol Hux were the ones responsible for the First Order being able to navigate the Unknown Regions. So just like how Darth Vader WASN'T originally Anakin and then he was. Damn that George Lucas for f***ing up the storyline! You don't seem to understand the difference between concept and canon. Run along, Marvel boy.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 19:44:13 GMT
So just like how Darth Vader WASN'T originally Anakin and then he was. Damn that George Lucas for f***ing up the storyline! You don't seem to understand the difference between concept and canon. Run along, Marvel boy. If Lucas can change his mind between films THAT massively, then I don't see how changing some ideas they had on the story of the First Order is that much worse. I mean really, if the "Vader is Anakin!" thing was attempted in today's environment I can assure you that modern fans would be jumping all over it to find any flaws they could.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 19:50:05 GMT
You don't seem to understand the difference between concept and canon. Run along, Marvel boy. If Lucas can change his mind between films THAT massively, then I don't see how changing some ideas they had on the story of the First Order is that much worse. Believe me, I am fully aware that you don't see the difference!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 2, 2018 21:08:26 GMT
You don't seem to understand the difference between concept and canon. Run along, Marvel boy. If Lucas can change his mind between films THAT massively, then I don't see how changing some ideas they had on the story of the First Order is that much worse. I mean really, if the "Vader is Anakin!" thing was attempted in today's environment I can assure you that modern fans would be jumping all over it to find any flaws they could. No they wouldn't. It was one of the greatest cliffhanger twists in cinematic history. And every subsequent generation that has viewed TESB has had the same conclusion.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 2, 2018 21:31:09 GMT
To be fair George Lucas has had fanfic "hiccups". He is extraordinary at world building. He has written distinct characters that are well-balanced. Characters that show facets and nuance and growth (aka character development). And he is pretty solid when it comes to overall plot.
But he does seem to have fanfic issues with storyline development of characters. That's how we got Jar Jar Binks after all. Who writes a storyline for a bumbling clown frogman in such a way that he is the glue to tying together the major plots!
So Lucas did make storyline adjustments to his characters in the OT. The most pronounced being Vader becoming Luke's father. Also Leia became Luke's sister. But Lucas has rewritten some of his early drafts to reduce fanfic storyline issues. Also his collaborations have helped reduce that. The change with Vader worked out brilliantly! In most instances it has worked out. The Jar Jar of TPM snuck through.
But Lucas history in that issue doesn't come close to comparing with the glaring and unrefined fanfic in the ST! As @winterssuicide implied in another post, this is hack writing loaded with fanfic flaws - and it would've been better off in the hands of hired people with genuine talent in the genre.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 21:41:49 GMT
To be fair George Lucas has had fanfic "hiccups". He is extraordinary at world building. He has written distinct characters that are well-balanced. Characters that show facets and nuance and growth (aka character development). And he is pretty solid when it comes to overall plot. But he does seem to have fanfic issues with storyline development of characters. That's how we got Jar Jar Binks after all. Who writes a storyline for a bumbling clown frogman in such a way that he is the glue to tying together the major plots! So Lucas did make storyline adjustments to his characters in the OT. The most pronounced being Vader becoming Luke's father. Also Leia became Luke's sister. But Lucas has rewritten some of his early drafts to reduce fanfic storyline issues. Also his collaborations have helped reduce that. The change with Vader worked out brilliantly! In most instances it has worked out. The Jar Jar of TPM snuck through. But Lucas history in that issue doesn't come close to comparing with the glaring and unrefined fanfic in the ST! As @winterssuicide implied in another post, this is hack writing loaded with fanfic flaws - and it would've been better off in the hands of hired people with genuine talent in the genre. Not to mention, it never saw the light of day as it pertains to canon. Vader becoming Luke's father or Leia becoming his sister doesn't require a change in canon. Unless he was a Dark Lord of the Sith this whole time and is going to pop up in Ep. IX as the mastermind behind everything. Yousa been fooled, bombast! Meesa been Plagueis da whole time!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 2, 2018 21:56:16 GMT
To be fair George Lucas has had fanfic "hiccups". He is extraordinary at world building. He has written distinct characters that are well-balanced. Characters that show facets and nuance and growth (aka character development). And he is pretty solid when it comes to overall plot. But he does seem to have fanfic issues with storyline development of characters. That's how we got Jar Jar Binks after all. Who writes a storyline for a bumbling clown frogman in such a way that he is the glue to tying together the major plots! So Lucas did make storyline adjustments to his characters in the OT. The most pronounced being Vader becoming Luke's father. Also Leia became Luke's sister. But Lucas has rewritten some of his early drafts to reduce fanfic storyline issues. Also his collaborations have helped reduce that. The change with Vader worked out brilliantly! In most instances it has worked out. The Jar Jar of TPM snuck through. But Lucas history in that issue doesn't come close to comparing with the glaring and unrefined fanfic in the ST! As @winterssuicide implied in another post, this is hack writing loaded with fanfic flaws - and it would've been better off in the hands of hired people with genuine talent in the genre. Not to mention, it never saw the light of day as it pertains to canon. Vader becoming Luke's father or Leia becoming his sister doesn't require a change in canon. Unless he was a Dark Lord of the Sith this whole time and is going to pop up in Ep. IX as the mastermind behind everything. Yousa been fooled, bombast! Meesa been Plagueis da whole time!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 0:16:38 GMT
If Lucas can change his mind between films THAT massively, then I don't see how changing some ideas they had on the story of the First Order is that much worse. I mean really, if the "Vader is Anakin!" thing was attempted in today's environment I can assure you that modern fans would be jumping all over it to find any flaws they could. No they wouldn't. It was one of the greatest cliffhanger twists in cinematic history. And every subsequent generation that has viewed TESB has had the same conclusion. It's seen that way NOW. But ESB wasn't as well regarded back then as it is now. And if it came out NOW then there'd be plenty of folks jumping all over it and ripping into it.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 0:23:21 GMT
No they wouldn't. It was one of the greatest cliffhanger twists in cinematic history. And every subsequent generation that has viewed TESB has had the same conclusion. It's seen that way NOW. But ESB wasn't as well regarded back then as it is now. And if it came out NOW then there'd be plenty of folks jumping all over it and ripping into it. If that were true then the current generation who see it for the first time on DVD would be ripping it. But that's not happening. It's been regarded the same way regardless of generation.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 0:27:42 GMT
It's seen that way NOW. But ESB wasn't as well regarded back then as it is now. And if it came out NOW then there'd be plenty of folks jumping all over it and ripping into it. If that were true then the current generation who see it for the first time on DVD would be ripping it. But that's not happening. It's been regarded the same way regardless of generation. Because it's got nostalgia backing it up and shielding it. Modern audiences are basically conditioned to NOT criticize the OT.
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Post by thenewnexus on Apr 3, 2018 3:31:04 GMT
Kylo is a big joke
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Post by leesilm on Apr 9, 2018 15:58:58 GMT
I think, to a degree, it is a bit of "point of view" thing for Krybaby Ren. From Han's perspective, the problem was the Dark-side tendencies of the Skywalker blood. Han, for all we are aware, doesn't know Anikan's full backstory- all we know for sure that Han's been informed of is (a)Darth Vader used to be a good guy, (b)he turned to the Dark side, (c)he fathered twins seemingly without being aware of them being alive, and (d)he turned back to save Luke after decades of being the galaxy's ultimate boogey man. He may not know that Anikan was twisted and warped by a man who played on his greatest fear- losing the people he loved most and being helpless to stop it (then it becoming a self-fulfilling thing) so Ben having been a good guy, who turns to the Dark Side, and becomes the galaxy's boogey man, to Han, makes him too much like Grandpa Vader. The helmet and all doesn't hurt either.
For Snoke, he's trying to get a nice little deadly lapdog to do his bidding. Han Solo, no matter whatever else he was or what he did, was not one for following orders and just keeping his head down, doing what he was told. He was a rascal, scoundrel, smuggler, gambler, scamp, rebel, and survivor. So, every time Snoke sees Krybaby Ren thinking for himself, questioning, not-doing Snoke's bidding, failing to reach goals, whatever- he sees that Solo streak shining through. ALSO, you gotta keep in mind, what bigger insult could Snoke hurl at Krybaby Ren to further snap him back in line? "You are just like your father". The person Snoke has been telling Kylo, for years, was weak and failed Kylo/etc. - and now he's comparing Kylo to that figure. Plus, any part of Kylo that is/was reaching toward the Light side of the Force, would feel pain/remorse/guilt over murdering the person who came to him unarmed and trusting, risking everything to reach out to his son - and we all remember Yoda's quote about the Dark Side and pain/suffering/anger.
Don't get me wrong, I still think LAST JEDI was a flawed film (though there are parts I really liked), but there are some interesting psychological things going on with some of these characters in the new trilogy.
Still bitter they killed off Han in the first movie.
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