? for anti-PT and pro-ST fans...

? for anti-PT and pro-ST fans... Feb 1, 2018 16:17:24 GMT

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Post by mcufan on Feb 1, 2018 16:17:24 GMT

Feb 1, 2018 15:53:08 GMT ryboto said:

Feb 1, 2018 15:31:46 GMT mcufan said:

See the answer to Ryboto. Also you never see Luke being trained with lightsabers, unless some remote action is training enough, and i am made to believe he can confront Vader and actually wound him? Stretchs of imagination are part of SW since the beggining. Did he train very hard between ANH and ESB, very very hard? Rey from TFA would obliterate Luke from ESB in a heartbeat. She had to survive for years and years.

The difference is the passage of time. Luke was given guidance, and we see he at the VERY least had access to the training stun ball thing. So, right there, he's got an edge over Rey. Not a stretch, a logical leap. That's the friggin difference. Lucas provided exposition that made these logic leaps work and seem organic to our suspension of disbelief. Rey wouldn't obliterate Luke. Take away her stick, which she uses clunkily, and Luke has the weight advantage. Neither of them is an experienced fighter. Though, Luke SHOULD be a better pilot, but as we see with her stunt in the Falcon, she's got him tied there already and she'd never flown it before!

I thought she did alright on Jakku, not clunky at all. Sure take away her clothes and she would be naked. I concede the flying the falcon stuff. a bit Over the top. BUT that's a freighter not a fighter. Luke should best her in a fighter, but she never uses one. I don't know if she has the same apptitude to adapt to controls as she has to wepons.

Feb 1, 2018 15:31:46 GMT mcufan said:

She stumbled in the beggining because she was caught by surprise by all what's happening around her. The force download it's called focus.

She didn't stumble, she was inexperienced. She lacks the skill. Then JJ decides the force can supersede skill and logic, and so she gets skill from a single word, and miraculously, conveniently, Kylo forgets all of his skill and his focus at the same time.

Already addressed, i'm not going to answer in circles.

Feb 1, 2018 15:31:46 GMT mcufan said:

When he tricks her, like he tricked Snoke in hiding his true intentions and making her come to him for redemption, wich he never intended. It takes some skill to mask one's intentions in the Force. He bested her in the mind game.

But then she bests him immediately following...

When?

Feb 1, 2018 15:31:46 GMT mcufan said:

I concede this one, but it wasn't like she was making it look easy, that's the point.

The implication, is that without the level of training Kylo has, she's able to match him in not only the force, but with use of a lightsabre.

There's no implication. Lighsaber skills and force raw power are two very different things. She has raw power to defy him, and if handicapped she has enough knwoledge of armed combat to best him also, with force focus.

Feb 1, 2018 15:31:46 GMT mcufan said:

Sure, and that double training is his greatest weakness.

No, that's utterly your interpretation. You can't have it both ways. You can't have him conflicted to make it convenient for your argument in one scene, then he can mind trick Snoke EASILY in another, showing his prowess in the force - which is a result of ALL of his training. His inner emotional conflict simply makes his decisions sloppy.

YES. He is sloppy because he is conflicted, thus he makes mistakes, and he is conflicted because he was taught two very different things. it has nothing to do with his prowess with the force. It's his decisions that are hesitant.

Feb 1, 2018 15:31:46 GMT mcufan said:

Yes, she needs training. There is no debate. But unlike Luke's training where he had trouble tapping into the force, she needs training in understanding it. But yes some training is required or she will be tempted by the dark side like she was n the movie (i really don't know what's to understand here) She only gets a few lessons from Luke but she still needs additional training, on her own, with the books, force ghost, whatever. She neeeds it. She barely escaped Snoke, if not for Kylo saving her at the last minute.

What suggests she needs it? She was given no instruction from Luke with a sabre, and she's fine, she lifted rocks, she's mind tricked, she's mind read....what the hell training does she need?! Where in the film is she shown as inept beyond that dumb fern-tickle scene?

Well, she must learn force projection, force ghost, force lightning (if trainined by the dark side), Force Jump, Force Speed, force push, force pull. And above all she needs to learn what it all means. She has the potential to best snoke yet he treats her like a toy, untill Kylo saves her. She needs training to be a master like snoke, luke or even Kylo if he wasn't torn between two truths.

You're very confused about what you saw, which is why this is difficult. The writing is bad, and that's why in one scene she's capable, and in another, Snoke is obviously her superior, as is Kylo...then in the next, she's on Kylo's level....so if she's on his level, she could have bested Snoke? See how awful and inconsistent it is?

Capable of what? Of acting by instinct and blowing stuff up? yes, but she lacks control. She's on Kylo's level on raw power alone. Both movies show that. And no she couldn't have beste snoke. Snoke was defeated by mastery of the force that Kylo has and she clearly dosen't.

The rocks at the end are the first non instintive or mimetic force power she uses. First steps.