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Post by clusium on Jan 22, 2019 14:25:43 GMT
God Gave humanity something known as Free Will, meaning we can either be with Him, or not. Hence it was humanity's fault not to live up to God's Will. Do you really think that I wouldn't be familiar with the typical Christian attempt to get around the morality of God's actions? You already acknowledge that you are aware that I used to be a Christian. So you don't have to give me the standard, tired lines of reasoning that don't actually address my point. I'm interested in having another "free will" debate because free will is irrelevant. I'd argue that there is actually no free will even possible in Christianity at all. So we come to an immediate impasse once we inject the red-herring of free will into the discussion. We are talking specifically about the actions of God. And the reason it's important to not get sidetracked with other things is because no amount of human free will can ever subvert the will of God. According to Christianity, EVERYTHING happens according to "God's will" and his will will be done. So free will (even if I were to accept that there was such a thing) is now an irrelevancy! Whatever exists in the universe is ultimately the responsibility of God alone if you believe that he created everything. This would include "free will" (and anything that results from it)! When it comes to the Egyptians, or the Greeks, or the Romans (or all of the other races existing in other parts of the world that the bible conveniently ignores like the Chinese, and the Mayans, and Aztec, etc), does "free will" explain in any way why the Hebrew God never interacted with any of them for thousands of years? And if your answer is yes, then explain how free will could have even been a factor with people who had no evidence of God's existence, despite it being within his power to interact with them. It is precisely because it is humanity that chose to sin, which caused Christ to Suffer so. Does "humanity" include the Hebrews, whom you believe are God's chosen people? Did they also choose to sin? Were they also the descendants of sinners? Who says that it is not a reasonable belief? You? I find it very reasonable, as have all Christians for 2,000 years, right to this very day, continue to do so. So the answer to that is YES, I say it's unreasonable and I'm using my argument to demonstrate WHY it is unreasonable. I don't care that a lot of people have traditionally accepted something that is demonstrably unreasonable for thousands of years. That is an appeal to popularity, or an appeal to tradition (both logical fallacies). Neither the truth, nor reasonableness of a claim is impacted in any way by how many people accept the claim as true. No, that is not my forced interpretation of Sacred Scripture. That is simple logic of the afore-mentioned Scripture. It is neither simple, nor logical for aforementioned reasons that I gave. You do not consider Amnon raping Tamar a crime?!?!? What I consider is irrelevant! The question is, is there any evidence that GOD considers it a crime. The fact that he ended up being murdered says nothing about whether that act was criminal. Able was murdered by Cain for having a better offering; that doesn't imply that having the better offering is against God. There is a difference between God's Will & God's Pleasure. God Allows things to happen, but, He Is not necessarily Pleased with the outcome, hence, we have free will. God Did not Interact with the nations outside of Israel, until His Son Came, precisely because of that - His Son had Not yet Come!! Until He Sent His Messiah into the world, He Focused SOLELY on the Jews, precisely, because He Planned on Sending His Son!! Yes, the Hebrews were sinners. Yes, God Considers rape a GRAVE SIN. Abel was murdered, but, God PUNISHED Cain for his acts.
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