Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 3, 2019 23:12:13 GMT
OK then, against my better instincts, one last time:
The mistake you make there is the same often made by people with extremely poor reading skills.
An ad hominem is still not an argument.
I repeat: GM is often justified for religious reasons and a religious justification is not the same as religious requirement. For Jewish people MGM it is mandated. It is common among Muslims. Since the Jews worship the same God as Christians, something which Muslims also say about Allah, BTW, if this purported deity really is successful in changing attitudes then with this one at least He is taking His time!
www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/do-christians-muslims-and-jews-worship-same-god
The point here, which I see you now acknowledge, would be that it is not true that GM is "only found in poor countries", which was as you insisted before. QED. And the estimated 513,000 victims in the USA is not something to be written off so casually as insignificant. Your callousness is not reflected by your Govt. With the passage of the federal law ban, the Female Genital Mutilation Act in 1996, performing FGM on anyone under age 18 became a felony in the United States. No issue there then.
There is no reason to assume that the reasons given by the majority of those involved with GM are false, as they would be best placed to know. (The only confusion in Islam is over whether FGM is mandated. Senior Muslim religious authorities appear to agree that FGM is neither required nor prohibited by Islam. The Quran does not mention FGM or male circumcision. FGM is praised in a few hadith , sayings attributed to Muhammad, as noble but not required. Rightly or wrongly, Muslim proponents of FGM stress the religious necessity. Midwifes and mothers insist that it is “sunnah” – an opinion shared by most Islamic clerics. Yet, sunnah can either mean that a practice is religiously recommended or simply that it was done that way in the times of the prophet Mohammed.) In the case of Jewish people, as you ought to admit, circumcision is mandated, as part of their religion. The implication with those who attribute religious justification for GM, that they are all for some reason lying about their true motivation and that really it has nothing to do with religion is nonsense. Suppose I called you a liar whenever you deny abiogensis and you claim you believe only a supernatural designer could have created life? See how it works? Anyone who has bothered to read thus this far will.
*sigh* As already carefully explained, for various reasons, it is best practice to take the religious at their word as they are best placed to know what they believe. They may be wrong in their interpretation of what is required over what is custom within a religion, but that does not remove the religious association. So for the last time: culture and religion are both contributing to the prevalance of FGM. Time for you stop making out the religious, whenever they contradict you, to be liars just because it suits your argument, as it looks silly - and, as I suggest, can ultimately can be used against your own claims based on faith.
Read after me: "in 2018 the Islamic Central Council of Switzerland classified removal of the clitoral foreskin, a less severe form of FGM, as sunna (recommended)." or " In May 2012 it was reported that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was working to decriminalize FGM." or "Shiite religious texts, such as the hadith transmitted by Al-Sadiq, state that "circumcision is makruma ("noble") for women."".
It is a fact that FGM, at least, is objected to among a host of nations, to the point of making it illegal. And it is certainly a fact I find non-consensual GM anywhere objectionable -which is not the same as saying that everyone objects to it. (One is unsure that you really do, for instance)
Now go find another thread to haunt, as your weird notions that religion is unconnected with GM, that the religious cannot be trusted to relay their beliefs truthfully and that in any case genital mutilation is not so bad when only practiced among the poor are by turn unconvincing, self-defeating and crass
An ad hominem is still not an argument.
They assume incorrectly that the god of the Bible instituted human sacrifice, slaughtering infants and other primitive practices because such are found in the Bible but not modern secular life. Rather those practices were found already in the primitive world, the bad choices of extremely primitive people. The god of the Bible gathered a people to establish a more humane civilization. Over time it was successful in changing attitudes.
I repeat: GM is often justified for religious reasons and a religious justification is not the same as religious requirement. For Jewish people MGM it is mandated. It is common among Muslims. Since the Jews worship the same God as Christians, something which Muslims also say about Allah, BTW, if this purported deity really is successful in changing attitudes then with this one at least He is taking His time!
www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/do-christians-muslims-and-jews-worship-same-god
Because you never studied and do not understand statistical analysis you failed to notice that you depend on a "statistical outlier" here. Less than one in six hundred people in the United States means you have a "statistical outlier." I'm not wrong. You are. The alarming increase is attributable to people arriving from or emulating primitive societies. [my emphasis]
The point here, which I see you now acknowledge, would be that it is not true that GM is "only found in poor countries", which was as you insisted before. QED. And the estimated 513,000 victims in the USA is not something to be written off so casually as insignificant. Your callousness is not reflected by your Govt. With the passage of the federal law ban, the Female Genital Mutilation Act in 1996, performing FGM on anyone under age 18 became a felony in the United States. No issue there then.
Also because you never studied and do not understand statistical analysis you failed to notice that correlation is not causation. In most well conducted studies when there is a correlation there might well be a causation found with finer tuned surveys. However in many cases even the best methods are not able to establish a cause.
There is no reason to assume that the reasons given by the majority of those involved with GM are false, as they would be best placed to know. (The only confusion in Islam is over whether FGM is mandated. Senior Muslim religious authorities appear to agree that FGM is neither required nor prohibited by Islam. The Quran does not mention FGM or male circumcision. FGM is praised in a few hadith , sayings attributed to Muhammad, as noble but not required. Rightly or wrongly, Muslim proponents of FGM stress the religious necessity. Midwifes and mothers insist that it is “sunnah” – an opinion shared by most Islamic clerics. Yet, sunnah can either mean that a practice is religiously recommended or simply that it was done that way in the times of the prophet Mohammed.) In the case of Jewish people, as you ought to admit, circumcision is mandated, as part of their religion. The implication with those who attribute religious justification for GM, that they are all for some reason lying about their true motivation and that really it has nothing to do with religion is nonsense. Suppose I called you a liar whenever you deny abiogensis and you claim you believe only a supernatural designer could have created life? See how it works? Anyone who has bothered to read thus this far will.
Similarly the fact that primitive people claim religion as a cause is no establishment that they are correct.
*sigh* As already carefully explained, for various reasons, it is best practice to take the religious at their word as they are best placed to know what they believe. They may be wrong in their interpretation of what is required over what is custom within a religion, but that does not remove the religious association. So for the last time: culture and religion are both contributing to the prevalance of FGM. Time for you stop making out the religious, whenever they contradict you, to be liars just because it suits your argument, as it looks silly - and, as I suggest, can ultimately can be used against your own claims based on faith.
Repeat after me, "correlation is not causation."
Read after me: "in 2018 the Islamic Central Council of Switzerland classified removal of the clitoral foreskin, a less severe form of FGM, as sunna (recommended)." or " In May 2012 it was reported that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was working to decriminalize FGM." or "Shiite religious texts, such as the hadith transmitted by Al-Sadiq, state that "circumcision is makruma ("noble") for women."".
"Objectionable" is an opinion, not a fact. You are often confused about those things.
It is a fact that FGM, at least, is objected to among a host of nations, to the point of making it illegal. And it is certainly a fact I find non-consensual GM anywhere objectionable -which is not the same as saying that everyone objects to it. (One is unsure that you really do, for instance)
Now go find another thread to haunt, as your weird notions that religion is unconnected with GM, that the religious cannot be trusted to relay their beliefs truthfully and that in any case genital mutilation is not so bad when only practiced among the poor are by turn unconvincing, self-defeating and crass