Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 9:21:18 GMT
tpfkar
@miccee said: but some atheists are primitive and fearful enough to do the same.

Morally I would be fine with post-birth abortions, but I realise that this would probably be too radical to ever be implemented.
You're still playing semantical games. "Enjoying ones life" is an overarching theme; one isn't when one wants to die yet still gets some pleasure from seeing a daisy pop out through the snow. People resolve to die by their 80th birthday because they are already projecting magnified misery by that date. Your own phrase explained it beautifully for you "degradations of extreme old age". They're not avoiding the enjoyment of those degradations. If an "antinatalist" wants not just to die personally, but also hopes for the species to be not just reformed but wiped out, then that antinatalist is gripped with some deep and abiding dissatisfaction, and likely a not small portion of hate. Not the badge of "enjoying life".
"Enjoying ones life" and "wishing to die" are wholly and irretrievable mutually exclusive regardless of any paragraphs of tommyrot heaped upon it. One has to either have an overwhelming dislike or be a strikingly irrational person.
A rational person knows that the good times may come to an end, and they're not going to miss any of the good things when they're dead in any case. Most people are strikingly irrational with regards to all issues surrounding death. And unfortunately, that irrationality doesn't just affect them, it bleeds into politics and causes needless suffering.
Only in the minds of those that use words like "holocaust" for the like of trick-or-treat hosters inflicting sugar upon the unwitting. Or who continually try to inject edge cases which may demand specialized handling when their arguments in the main are so morbidly comically crashing an burning.
The base is both that having the choice is manifold superior to never having it, and also that the vast majority fervently desire to continue living for the bulk of their lives, and certainly for the duration of them enjoying it.
The base is both that having the choice is manifold superior to never having it, and also that the vast majority fervently desire to continue living for the bulk of their lives, and certainly for the duration of them enjoying it.
The argument in the main is that everyone should be the owner of their life and not be forced to live it against their consent. Or be forced to covertly inflict terrible harm on themselves and take high stakes risks if they want to stop living it.
I don't condemn anyone for not taking on a beneficent burden, but I'll commend those that do bear it properly. Not that my estimation of the sacrifice in any way affects the fact that the new beings are given a choice that is profoundly superior to never having such an option. And your "unacceptable gamble" conception is strictly a product of your morbid outlook. The odds can be made incredibly favorable.
Why not, though? Based on your reasoning, the ones who choose not to bear kids are letting the side down and are derelict in their obligation to bring good into the world. To endow beings with choice that would never otherwise have existed to behold that choice. If everyone had the attitude of 'it's too much of a burden for my lifestyle', then the species would go extinct and there would be nobody left to enjoy having a choice. And the odds are only "incredibly favourable" if you set the bar extremely low. Someone who spends their entire life working 16 hour shifts in a sweatshop just to survive, but doesn't choose suicide (and perhaps even that is merely because they sincerely believe that they will be tortured eternally for doing so), is not "incredibly favourable" and nor do those people have much in the way of choice. The "unacceptable gamble" is the fact that, no matter what the odds, the gamble is taken on behalf of someone who cannot consent and the losers in that gamble (whatever their proportion of the whole) have a very heavy price to pay that you probably would not want to pay if it faced you.
What "bank account" do you suppose the nonexistent have? What is being "stolen" from the nonexistent?
They're being plunged from a neutral state into a profoundly negative state. Kind of like if I stole your credit cards and ran up a massive debt, except in the game of life, there is no obligation on any external agency to cancel those debts. It's basically like issuing people with a credit card that they don't need with a very high credit limit and holding them fully responsible for the debts when someone defrauds them.
Righto, so why not give them a chance for a real blast! The overwhelming bulk of the fraction who truly lament their existence can very easily exercise their choice.
Because a) the "real blast" is only a solution to a problem that would have needed to be brought into being in order to be solved; b) the ones who hate the party with every fibre of their existence are the ones who end up having to pay the largest share of the bill.
Simply does not follow. All you mention is evidence of their seriously degraded mental competency.
Many mentally ill people have very little confidence in, and are downright fearful of the psychiatric system, and for very good reason. The NHS over here has been sued successfully for being negligent in their duty to safeguard the "right to life" of people with severe refractive depression who have been released and committed suicide. Many people are terrified of sentencing themselves to life imprisonment and a life sentence of being tortured by their mental illness with no possibility of any form of escape (suicide or a successful treatment and release into the general population) if they approach their psychiatrist and admit to having experienced suicidal ideation. If they realised that seeking help could be a win/win proposition, they are more likely to seek help. If assisted dying was offered only at the conclusion of a mandatory consultation and treatment period, then there would be the chance to treat the condition and cure the suffering without the need for suicide, and owing to the inbuilt survival instinct likely only the most hopeless cases would go on to choose suicide. If our pets are in terrible suffering that cannot be treated, we have them put down without their getting any say in the matter. Only a religious mindset holds that humans must not have the unquestioned right to an end to their suffering, and must indeed be obligated by law to bear their suffering indefinitely.
The answer to mental collapse is treatment, not encouragement of death.
My solution ensures that the vast majority of those who can be cured are cured. Your non-solution means that people are afraid to seek treatment and that people resign themselves to an ugly and violent suicide (likely traumatising others in the process) as the only option. You've offered no last resort for those who have tried every form of treatment that their mental health professionals can offer and still feel relentlessly rotten.
We should probably just go ahead and get rid of all forms of motorized transportation.
Well, you are in favour of curtailing personal freedom of choice for the many for the 'protection' of the few (protection in this context meaning that their wishes are not respected by society).
It would most certainly condemn orders of magnitude in excess of those it would purport to save. You don't give loaded weapons to the despondent, and you don't provide razor blades to babes.
There's no evidence of that, and no rational basis to interpret a requested peaceful death as a condemnation. And those without the option to discuss assisted suicide with a mental health professional are those who will end up giving in to their self harm impulses. Those who know that they can start down the pathway that I have described will hold out and will be required to seek treatment.
Nor can they rue being assassinated, or their family tortured horrifically, or for some even the fact that so many people really value their lives. Such a non-point.
The fact that most value their lives highly does not mean that we should be telling people that their lives are too valuable to be terminated and must therefore be borne as a burden.
A much lesser state.
It isn't a deprived state, and that is the only relevant point to make.
Only at least fractionally reasonable philosophies merit the acknowledgement of even the whiff of validity.
People's philosophies deserve validation in the sense that they should be free to invest their wellbeing in their own philosophy, just as long as they aren't endangering those who want nothing to do with that philosophy. I validate the right of Christians and Muslims to invest their wellbeing in their faith as long as it isn't imposed upon me. That doesn't mean that I have any respect for those philosophies; it means that I value freedom of thought and individual liberty. It means that I shouldn't have the power to prescribe my world view on them because I think that they are deluded. This is a philosophy that 'free thinkers' are supposed to value. And whilst you may be an atheist, you are certainly no free thinker.