Post by cupcakes on Sept 22, 2017 17:02:28 GMT
Sept 22, 2017 15:27:31 GMT @miccee said:
Once again, I'm not concerned about the wellbeing of the non-existent, but those who will exist and will wish that they did not. And those who will exist in the future (as well as those who exist in the present) are part of an unnecessary gamble that is being made by someone else on their behalf. The future person's wellbeing becomes a salient consideration upon conception; and to continue with the pregnancy is to act without the consent of the foetus. It's ridiculous to say that it's OK to just recklessly keep having children even if you don't know whether you'll be able to provide for them, or even if it is very likely that they will be born with a congenital disability that will cause them a lifetime of suffering. It's not OK just because a non-existent person cannot consent. The wellbeing of future sentient beings is worthy of concern and consideration. That's why there is concern over climate change from people who are likely going to be dead by the time that the worst effects become evident.And the fact that children of a certain age can be suffering terribly but not consent to be killed, or have the wherewithal is another area of moral concern, for you will be condeming a certain number of young children to a period of suffering. And those with the worst disabilities are being born into a long life sentence that would be considered cruel and inhumane if it was inflicted upon a sadistic torture-murderer.
I don't think that it is a relatively small risk, considering the state of the world at the moment, and the fact that even a large segment of well-off people are evidently very unhappy with their lives and this is reflected in the kinds of behaviours that you would not see from happy, well adjusted people (alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, domestic abuse, child molestation etc).
If you bring a child into the world in a wealthy nation, then children and adults in other parts of the world will be exploited so that your child can be provided for. And of course the same thing can be said of farm animals who will be kept in poor conditions and killed for their meat.
I don't want a lot of hyper religious people having the power to impose laws on me; especially when there are people who claim to be non-religious who want to impose arbitrary moral limitations on what services I'm allowed to obtain from the state or free market regarding something that affects me alone. In theory, I support open borders, because nobody should own land by dint of having been born on it...but if people are going to gain a foothold and then seek to aggressively impose religion, then that's a different matter. And I never really defended Trump; merely pointed out the undeniable fact that he wasn't as bad as Ted Cruz, and his presidency was in effect unlikely to be much different from a Hillary Clinton one (which is coming to pass).
Globally, the majority of people are living in poor conditions, and it is a small minority who are doing the exploiting. Most of the world;s population isn't part of the middle class of a wealthy, developed nation. So the numbers provided were very optimistic. Sweatshop workers in places such as Bangladesh work for very low wages and in terrible conditions because they have to support themselves and consumers do not collectively demand better conditions (and show willingness to pay a premium so that their clothes and electronic devices can be manufactured in humane conditions).
And just because someone does not already exist, does not mean that there isn't good reason to be concerned with the conditions in which as yet non existent beings will exist. Society already frowns upon parents who have far more children than they can ever afford; so that indicates that the wellbeing of a future person is taken seriously.
But why is an unneccessary 'good' (in that absolutely nobody would miss the absence of it if there were no sentient beings) justified by the toll of suffering that will be exacted from the unfortunate?
It is ridiculous to have children and not have their welfare and upkeep provided for. As it is ridiculous to pretend that said upkeep and maintenance can't be accomplished and should be as the baseline.
I agree that the wellbeing and consent of future beings is a consideration, hence we fix/maintain the environment, allow them to live, and allow them to choose once they actually have the capability to do so. However, if potential pain can be considered ahead of time then equally so can potential joy and satisfaction and the future being's likely preferences. Whichever consistent way you want to go with nonexistent "future people" it leads to giving them the overwhelmingly advantageous opportunity.
And the answer to physically suffering children is to treat conditions and ameliorate symptoms and palliate if they are terminal. The overwhelming response of the living would be that they would prefer to have lived rather than to have been terminated on the (tiny) chance that they would have situations such as you describe.
It matters not what you "think", as most would consider your outlook unbalanced. What matters is that you dropped "relatively", which was a key component of the assertion. And we can improve and are improving all of the (relatively rare) situations you describe. And even 10 years of getting high is better than never having lived, as most addicts not riddled with guilt will tell you, at least while they're still getting high.
There is no good reason for children in any parts to be exploited. You should be fighting against said exploitation instead of for morbid termination. You'd have far more possibility of an actual effect, if your beliefs even made any such efforts rational.
You may not want the "hyper religious" be they Abrahamic or Antinatalist "having the power to impose laws" on you, but you'd have Trump and his drawbridge while simultaneously complaining about "pulling up the drawbridge". You defended Trump on many occasions, using your same alt-rig jingles. And sorry to break this mind-blowing fact for you, but if you're going to let in who you want and keep out who you don't want, that's not open borders. And given Trump's judicial choices, your thing about not much different in effect from Hillary Clinton is just more crazy giggles from you.
Nothing is "necessary" or "unnecessary" on it's own, it's always relative to something else. Living is "necessary" to achieve this state that most prefer to it's end. The good/satisfaction/joy/gratefulnesss is worth the "risk" of both the helpful and unnecessary (for thriving) suffering. For the vast bulk of the living anyway. And since we're pondering this (well, you're just watching your body react as preprogrammed before the beginning (like that? ( ᐛ )و ), we must be living, right?
There's no guarantee of preventing the future appearance of life (I see how you've stolen Falconia's point); but that is beyond the control of anyone currently existing. It should be considered a moral imperative to stamp out suffering as far as we are able to; then hopefully any future civilisations that rise out of our ashes will find the same epiphany.
"I see how you've stolen Falconia's point". You think points are owned?
Sorry you're hurtin', brother. I don't doubt I could pick up something she said as in general as I accept whatever makes sense. How about yourself?And on the question of public transport, can you bring yourself to answer? Do you or don't you drive or use public transport?
If true, then it is cute, cuddly, fuzzy and multicultural because Muslims are (mostly) brown. That takes precedence over any moral concern.
