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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 12, 2018 6:00:09 GMT
And of course I am talking about..... the Doctor Who fandom. Steven Moffat was a great writer but a horrible show runner. And now you got Chris Chibnall. You better hope the opposite is true. That a great show runner comes from horrible writers. Chris Chibnall couldn't write himself out of a wet paper sack. Some in the fandom will blame Jodie Whittaker for being the first female doctor. It won't be her, well won't be entirely her, if somehow she bombs the part. I don't think her bombing the acting part will happen. If there is a failure it will be Chris Chibnall. Maybe if we back a big truck full of money at Russell T. Davies house he will take on the job again.
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Post by politicidal on Jul 12, 2018 14:08:39 GMT
Definitely The Dark Knight.
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Post by charzhino on Jul 12, 2018 14:17:36 GMT
TDK is massively overrated. Remove Joker and you'll be left with a good but unremarkable cbm. Remove Thanos from IW and youre left with explosions and jokes. Thanos is the crux of the film, without him you dont get the story arcs from Gamora, Quill, Stark and Thor. Without him theres no substance to the film TDK atleast has story arcs for Harvey Dent and Bruce that dont involve the joker. Its more about how both believe in changing the city for good and fighting organised crimes from different ethical standpoints: traditonal politics and law abiding route in contrast to vigilantism. The story is about how both can be reconciled and faltered; such as Morgan Freemans critcism of Bruce using snooping data breaches on privacy to defeat a greater evil at the end. IW is simply about stopping Thanos putting together a powerful maguffin. Hardly full of subtext and social commentary.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 12, 2018 14:37:12 GMT
TDK is massively overrated. Remove Joker and you'll be left with a good but unremarkable cbm. When you ask people what was good about it, majority would say it was because of Joker. People don't say it had a great plot. They don't say there was great chemistry between the characters. The characters themselves were nothing memorable outside the aforementioned Joker and (to a degree) Harvey Dent. It had some of the worst fight scenes in a cbm. In short, it's greatness rests solely on the Joker's shoulders. Infinity War on the other hand, while not perfect, is a massive undertaking that succeeds in way more areas than TDK ever did. The same could be said about Infinity War. Take away Thanks and you just have another alien invasion film. Joker = the heart of The Dark Knight Thanos = the heart of Infinity War There's nothing wrong with that.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 12, 2018 17:27:23 GMT
TDK is massively overrated. Remove Joker and you'll be left with a good but unremarkable cbm. When you ask people what was good about it, majority would say it was because of Joker. People don't say it had a great plot. They don't say there was great chemistry between the characters. The characters themselves were nothing memorable outside the aforementioned Joker and (to a degree) Harvey Dent. It had some of the worst fight scenes in a cbm. In short, it's greatness rests solely on the Joker's shoulders. Infinity War on the other hand, while not perfect, is a massive undertaking that succeeds in way more areas than TDK ever did. The same could be said about Infinity War. Take away Thanks and you just have another alien invasion film. Joker = the heart of The Dark Knight Thanos = the heart of Infinity War There's nothing wrong with that. Nah, remove Thanos from IW and you still have the Black Order. Ebony Maw alone could have easily been a great villain. The interactions between the different characters was still awesome. The fight scenes were still awesome. The acting from majority of actors involved were all great. The simple fact of having that many heroes on screen still deserves merit. There are multiple things that could still be appreciated from IW.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 12, 2018 17:46:51 GMT
TDK is massively overrated. Remove Joker and you'll be left with a good but unremarkable cbm. Remove Thanos from IW and youre left with explosions and jokes. Thanos is the crux of the film, without him you dont get the story arcs from Gamora, Quill, Stark and Thor. Without him theres no substance to the film TDK atleast has story arcs for Harvey Dent and Bruce that dont involve the joker. Its more about how both believe in changing the city for good and fighting organised crimes from different ethical standpoints: traditonal politics and law abiding route in contrast to vigilantism. The story is about how both can be reconciled and faltered; such as Morgan Freemans critcism of Bruce using snooping data breaches on privacy to defeat a greater evil at the end. IW is simply about stopping Thanos putting together a powerful maguffin. Hardly full of subtext and social commentary. So let's say we don't remove Joker and Thanos from their respective movies but substitute them for lackluster performances instead. Say instead of Ledger's Joker you get Leto's Joker in TDK and instead of Thanos you get Steppenwolf in IW. Both still go through the same actions, dialogue and motivations just that they don't get praised for their performances. Would you still say that TDK is better than IW in this scenario?
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 12, 2018 18:00:09 GMT
Avengers: Infinity War. As in the one war. Singular.
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Post by charzhino on Jul 12, 2018 18:06:46 GMT
So let's say we don't remove Joker and Thanos from their respective movies but substitute them for lackluster performances instead. Say instead of Ledger's Joker you get Leto's Joker in TDK and instead of Thanos you get Steppenwolf in IW. Both still go through the same actions, dialogue and motivations just that they don't get praised for their performances. Would you still say that TDK is better than IW in this scenario? I would say so yes although your getting into too much of a what if scenarios. The story and themes in TDK are simply more compelling and layered. Theres only one theme i can see in Infinity War and thats one about sacrifice but its a bit repetitive because nearly every character is involved with it. Thanos sacrifices Gamora to obtain the gem, Quill/Gamora converse about what to do if Thanos ever captures Gamora, Thor dealing with death of family and sacrificing himself to forge Stormbreaker, Scarlet witch and the whole subplot of should they sacrifice and kill Vision, Strange willing to sacrafice himself to prevent handing over time stone. Dark Knight poses more questions and scenarios from ethical, moral, psychological and political angles and it doesnt need a macguffin to pull it off. A great joker is just a bonus. From your original post it seems you think IW would be better simply because it has better action visuals than TDK.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 12, 2018 20:04:29 GMT
So let's say we don't remove Joker and Thanos from their respective movies but substitute them for lackluster performances instead. Say instead of Ledger's Joker you get Leto's Joker in TDK and instead of Thanos you get Steppenwolf in IW. Both still go through the same actions, dialogue and motivations just that they don't get praised for their performances. Would you still say that TDK is better than IW in this scenario? I would say so yes although your getting into too much of a what if scenarios. The story and themes in TDK are simply more compelling and layered. Theres only one theme i can see in Infinity War and thats one about sacrifice but its a bit repetitive because nearly every character is involved with it. Thanos sacrifices Gamora to obtain the gem, Quill/Gamora converse about what to do if Thanos ever captures Gamora, Thor dealing with death of family and sacrificing himself to forge Stormbreaker, Scarlet witch and the whole subplot of should they sacrifice and kill Vision, Strange willing to sacrafice himself to prevent handing over time stone. Dark Knight poses more questions and scenarios from ethical, moral, psychological and political angles and it doesnt need a macguffin to pull it off. A great joker is just a bonus. From your original post it seems you think IW would be better simply because it has better action visuals than TDK. No, replacing both Joker and Thanos with lackluster performances simply make them a non-factor while still allowing the movie to remain intact. And if you read my original post, action visuals was only 1 of the factors I mentioned in IW's favor. I also said that it had more character development all around, had better acting from most of the cast, had better character interaction, and had a way harder movie to pay off. Of course, it also had way better action scenes on top of that. Simply put: IW's characters pulled their weight whereas TDK's weight was shouldered mostly by Joker.
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Post by James on Jul 12, 2018 20:37:25 GMT
Much as I love Infinity War, I gotta give the edge to TDK. It really is a landmark in the CBM sub-genre.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Jul 13, 2018 2:22:00 GMT
TDK is massively overrated. Remove Joker and you'll be left with a good but unremarkable cbm. When you ask people what was good about it, majority would say it was because of Joker. People don't say it had a great plot. They don't say there was great chemistry between the characters. The characters themselves were nothing memorable outside the aforementioned Joker and (to a degree) Harvey Dent. It had some of the worst fight scenes in a cbm. In short, it's greatness rests solely on the Joker's shoulders. Infinity War on the other hand, while not perfect, is a massive undertaking that succeeds in way more areas than TDK ever did. Take away Thanos… Casablanca would be dumb if they took Rick out of the movie.
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Post by hardball on Jul 13, 2018 2:47:52 GMT
Infinity War >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TDK
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Post by charzhino on Jul 13, 2018 9:48:26 GMT
No, replacing both Joker and Thanos with lackluster performances simply make them a non-factor while still allowing the movie to remain intact. And as I said and will say again, Dark Knight offers more thematic depth than IW, its plain to see. How does it have more character development? Starks position at the beginning of the film is not significantly altered by the end. Neither is Caps, or Banners. The ones who do get character development are Thor, Scarlet Witch/Vision, Gamora and Thanos. And all revolve around the same tropes of self sacrifice and personal loss. Gordon, Bruce, Harvey Dent, Rachel and Joker get at the very least, the same amount of character development and I would argue exceeds IW's, since the film has more dedicated screen time to focus on these characters. Better acting? Unless you specify who and in what certain scenes, then no it doesn't. There are more dialogue based scenes in Dark Knight and Dent, Bruce Fox, Rachel, Joker, Gordon are played by better actors with more prestigious awards than IW's cast. Better character interaction? Harder to compare since there are more hero's in IW. But the thrill and fan boy excitement of seeing the likes of Stark and Strange interact should not be thrown In as a parameter to decide which movie is technically better, otherwise DC fanboys can claim Justice League is better than Dark Knight because they witnessed fun interactions between Aquaman and Wonderwoman. What should be judged in that regard, is the quality of written dialogue exchanges and the performance of the actors in delivery. I cant think of anything in IW that is in the same league, quality wise as the Joker interrogation scene. That interaction is better written and acted with a rich myriad of thematic depth. Can you name something in IW which you think compares? Harder movie to pay off? The ending of IW relies solely on Thanos completing his Gaunlet to kill half the people. It cannot work without Thanos. The ending of Dark Knight doesn't involve the Joker directly, so in your made up scenario of removing/diluting down Jokers/Thanos's impact, the Dark Knights ending comes out on top. TDKs ending doesn't require Jokers physical presence to remind us of his villainy which is a lot more impressive and harder to achieve. Also TDK doesn't end in a clichéd manner of nearly every CBM, where hero fights villain thus more inventive thought had to be put in to think outside the box. Both films essentially conclude with the villain winning. Thanos wins by using infinity stones, an all powerful macguffin. In TDK, the Joker wins because he was successful in imposing his poisonous ideology of anarchy to a white knight figure who was seen as Gothams saviour through lawful political means. Which do you think is harder to pull off, honestly in terms of writing and execution? Because from my observation, all you have to do in IW is have the first 2 acts of the film centred around Thanos collecting the gems, which he does. You already have 18 MCU movies behind you to develop an emotional attachment to the characters when they die at the end so you don't need to develop them as much. In TDK, you have a much greater challenge to write for Joker, Bruce and Dent where 2 of them are new entries. Its a no contest. Demonstrably false and proven by the fact the ending doesnt need the Joker. Gordon, Dent and Bruce pulled their weight to make the final 20 minutes of the film so successful. The only thing better in IW is the action.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 13, 2018 12:03:43 GMT
Honestly this is a silly comparison.
The Dark Knight is more of a crime thriller with a comic book paint. The focus isn't much on the big visual set pieces that we see in Infinity War. The Dark Knight is more grounded and personal story telling.
Infinity War is more in line of traditional comic book movies like Man of Steel, X-Men movies, BvS, Wonder Woman, Sam Raimi/Marc Webb Spider-Man movies, Watchman and the rest of the MCU films.
A better comparison would be Infinity War vs Justice League.
The Dark Knight is better off being compared to Logan.
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Post by summers8 on Jul 13, 2018 19:06:02 GMT
probably the dark knight. nolan movies tend to have better storytelling than MCU movies that tends to has mostly none.
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Post by hobowar on Jul 13, 2018 19:10:35 GMT
Definitely Infinity War. There are at least five Spider-Man movies better than Dark Knight in my opinion.
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Post by harpospoke on Jul 13, 2018 20:42:02 GMT
Infinity War isn't my favorite MCU movie....but I'll take it by a mile over TDK.
TDK isn't even in my top 10 CBMs. TDK isn't in my top 2 Batman movies. TDK isn't even my favorite Nolan Batman movie.
Frankly, any time Ledger isn't onscreen, I actively disliked TDK. A lot of characters written to be stupid to make the Joker look smart is my main takeaway from the movie. Perhaps best exemplified by the scene where Gordon and the Mayor are standing in front of the Joker's cell bemoaning the fact that they can't figure out who he is. ....While the Joker sits there still in full Joker makeup! That never stops being hilariously bad. Dumbest cops ever....Keystone Cops of Gotham.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jul 14, 2018 2:09:37 GMT
TDK is significantly better.
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