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Post by spiderwort on May 14, 2018 14:15:30 GMT
I've always admired films in which the ambivalence of the protagonist creates the main conflict in the film. Ambivalence in this case would be defined as a character wanting two things simultaneously - or not being sure what he or she wants most.
A great example is On the Waterfront, in which Brando's conflict arises from his love for Edie and his loyalty to his brother and the union. Without this conflict there would be no story to tell. And it's his resolution of that internal conflict that leads to the climax of the film and his inevitable character change.
Your thoughts, other examples?
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Post by teleadm on May 14, 2018 17:28:56 GMT
I might have missunderstood the subject, but the first one I came to think of was Julie Marsden (Bette Davis) in Jezebel 1938, in that she is playing games to hide her insecurity in what she realy wants and that she doesn't realize it until it's nearly too late.
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Post by mikef6 on May 14, 2018 17:54:03 GMT
So here I am again with another Bogart example.  The classic Bogie character (which, as an actor, he makes different and fresh each time) is the loner who only looks out for himself (“I stick my neck out for nobody”), but by the end he is totally committed to the Good Side. His change of character is what drives the resolutions of the movies. This transformation was first seen fully formed in “Casablanca” even though there may have been elements of it earlier. We also see it in “To Have And Have Not,” “Key Largo,” “The African Queen” (in a more light-hearted vein), “Chain Lighting,” and “The Harder They Fall.”
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Post by mikef6 on May 14, 2018 17:56:31 GMT
I might have missunderstood the subject, but the first one I came to think of was Julie Marsden (Bette Davis) in Jezebel 1938, in that she is playing games to hide her insecurity in what she realy wants and that she doesn't realize it until it's nearly too late. One of the most unexpected (yet well motivated) and moving character realizations in film history. And brilliantly acted by Bette. One of the screen's greatest performances.
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Post by spiderwort on May 14, 2018 23:55:05 GMT
I might have missunderstood the subject, but the first one I came to think of was Julie Marsden (Bette Davis) in Jezebel 1938, in that she is playing games to hide her insecurity in what she realy wants and that she doesn't realize it until it's nearly too late. No, you understood perfectly, teleadm, as Mike also noted. Thanks for your insightful comments.
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Post by spiderwort on May 14, 2018 23:57:27 GMT
So here I am again with another Bogart example.  The classic Bogie character (which, as an actor, he makes different and fresh each time) is the loner who only looks out for himself (“I stick my neck out for nobody”), but by the end he is totally committed to the Good Side. His change of character is what drives the resolutions of the movies. This transformation was first seen fully formed in “Casablanca” even though there may have been elements of it earlier. We also see it in “To Have And Have Not,” “Key Largo,” “The African Queen” (in a more light-hearted vein), “Chain Lighting,” and “The Harder They Fall.” Great comments, mike, and oh, so true. In fact, I'd say that "Casablanca" really defines the concept. And all things Bogart are always welcome. (The same could be said for Bette Davis, teleadm .)
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Post by bravomailer on May 15, 2018 0:49:50 GMT
Llewyn Davis – victim of bad luck or just a prick?
TE Lawrence – believer in the Arab cause or egomaniac who deems them barbaric?
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Post by bravomailer on May 15, 2018 1:40:50 GMT
Llewyn Davis – victim of bad luck or just a prick? TE Lawrence – believer in the Arab cause or egomaniac who deems them barbaric? Don't know the character Llewyn Davis, bravo, so I can't comment. And I'm not really sure what to make of your TE Lawrence assessment. I know about him historically, but I never saw LAWRENCE OF ARABIA (never got to see it on the big screen and refused to see it on the small one), so I'm not sure how he's portrayed in the film. Can you elaborate on both? And I think its best to put it in a "wants to" do this and "wants to" do that in order to express the conflict of wanting two things simultaneouslyt. The competing desires, not the results, define character ambivalence in the way I'm approaching it. I hope this makes sense. The Coen Brothers' Inside Llewyn Davis looks at a talented but obnoxious Greenwich Village folky in the early 60s. We see him make bad choices but we also see him irk people. Not sure how I rate this film. Not pleasant to watch. As for Lawrence, he displays idealism for helping the Arabs restore independence and greatness, but he also shows disdain for them – increasingly so as the film goes on. But of course he becomes increasingly brutal as the film proceeds.
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Post by london777 on May 15, 2018 1:41:57 GMT
Great thread, spiderwort, and close to my heart. I posted in another thread that my favorite movies are those where the protagonist has to make a difficult moral choice, which is related to what you are writing about. I will probably need to come back to this thread (again and again).  ![]()  One of my favorite films of the new millennium is Margaret (2011 dir: Kenneth Lonergan). I do not know of any film that better illustrates the web we can weave, not by practicing to deceive (as the old saying has it) but by trying to do the right thing. It is kind of backwards to the examples already given. The protagonist is very clear what she wants at the start, to right a wrong. But by the end of the movie she is totally baffled as to which is the morally right course. The same actress, Anna Paquin, plays a rather similar character in Spike Lee's 25th Hour (2002) but here she is just a supporting character and it is Edward Norton who has the moral dilemma to resolve. Should he report to the police and serve a long jail term or do a runner?  In Cambridge Spies (2003 UK TV mini-series) they all have to weigh their desire to fight fascism, against their family lives, their careers, and reputations. They all make the right choice, and to a greater or lesser extent sacrifice their lives, but the series also shows that their motivations were not solely noble. Snobbery, jealousy, bloody-mindedness, resentment at social censure because gay, etc, all played a part. The real story is more surprising and complex than any film could be, but this is a good attempt despite the small TV budget which partly undermines things The Spanish episodes are embarrassingly poverty-stricken and it is a shame they were not written out. If you are American, interested in spy stories, and can play Region 2 DVDs, invest seven dollars in it. Elmer Gantry (1960 dir: Richard Brooks) starts off by trying to rip off the travelling crusade of Sister Sharon Falconer. Then he falls in love with her (who wouldn't?) and does his level best to help her succeed. When things falls apart (literally) we hope that he is a sadder and more ethical man. Unsubtle Hollywood hokum, but one of my favorite movies.  In my all-time favorite movie in the universe, Wild Strawberries (1957) dir: Ingmar Bergman, Dr Isaak Borg (played by the great silent director Victor Sjöström) has shut out all warm feelings to concentrate on his medical career. At the end of his life, during a trip to receive a high academic honor, a succession of dreams and random meetings with strangers, make the old blockhead realize he has got the balance wrong, and he makes some clumsy attempts to start putting things right. In Casablanca I am only in tears when she sings La Marseillaise, but this one is apt to start me off at any point. The film shows why he became a loner (missing out on Bibi Andersson in her prime could do that to any male) but the garage stop (with Max von Sydow) suggests he maybe made the right life choice.
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Post by kijii on May 15, 2018 1:44:24 GMT
If I understand your idea here, the movie that comes to mind the most for me would be The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957). The OBJECT of the conflict would be "the bridge" itself. For Alec Guinness, the bridge is a symbol of triumph over suffering as well as a lasting symbol of British building skills under extreme conditions, something that will last as part of the British spirit. For the Allies, the bridge is something that must be destroyed to achieve victory of the Japanese. As I recall, the final words of the movie are something like: "This is MADNESS, total Madness."
And, while on the subject of Bridges, how about For Whom the Bell Tolls, where Gary Cooper has to explain to Ingrid Bergman that 'I am a part of you and you are a part of me now...we will go on together' (long speech there). Then........
Robert Jordan : Are you afraid? Maria : Not now. I love you, Roberto. Always remember. I love you as I loved my father and mother, as I love our unborn children, as I love what I love most in the world, and I love you more. Always remember. Robert Jordan : I'll remember. Maria : Nothing can ever part us now, can it? Robert Jordan : Nothing, Maria.
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Post by london777 on May 15, 2018 1:58:16 GMT
The Coen Brothers' Inside Llewyn Davis looks at a talented but obnoxious Greenwich Village folky in the early 60s. We see him make bad choices but we also see him irk people. Not sure how I rate this film. Not pleasant to watchI am the Coens' biggest fan but I too felt uncomfortable watching this. Took three attempts to get through it. Your post has made me realize that it was because I did not know what I was expected to think of this character. I have enough confidence in the Coens to watch it again at some future time and be further enlightened. (Another reason is that I have little patience with the sort of music of which he was supposed to be a master, so when his tracks are played I do not know if the Coens are presenting it as great examples of a dying art-form or are demonstrating why he was a second-rate commercial failure).  One thing I love is how one of the seminal moments of post-WWII popular music, Dylan's switch to electric guitar, is subtly and anonymously presented in the background. Do you know the painting by Brueghel the Elder "The Fall of Icarus?" In the foreground, boldly, a peasant is ploughing, In the background is a sumptious landscape and a galleon in full sail. Only belatedly do we notice a leg sticking out of the water (poor old Icarus). Same idea in Llewyn Davis.
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Post by bravomailer on May 15, 2018 2:47:23 GMT
The Coen Brothers' Inside Llewyn Davis looks at a talented but obnoxious Greenwich Village folky in the early 60s. We see him make bad choices but we also see him irk people. Not sure how I rate this film. Not pleasant to watchI am the Coens' biggest fan but I too felt uncomfortable watching this. Took three attempts to get through it. Your post has made me realize that it was because I did not know what I was expected to think of this character. I have enough confidence in the Coens to watch it again at some future time and be further enlightened. (Another reason is that I have little patience with the sort of music of which he was supposed to be a master, so when his tracks are played I do not know if the Coens are presenting it as great examples of a dying art-form or are demonstrating why he was a second-rate commercial failure). One thing I love is how one of the seminal moments of post-WWII popular music, Dylan's switch to electric guitar, is subtly and anonymously presented in the background. Do you know the painting by Brueghel the Elder "The Fall of Icarus?" In the foreground, boldly, a peasant is ploughing, In the background is a sumptious landscape and a galleon in full sail. Only belatedly do we notice a leg sticking out of the water (poor old Icarus). Same idea in Llewyn Davis. I've seen Llewyn Davis two times and still not sure of my view of it. I only warily recommend it to people but I readily commend Oscar Isaac's performance – acting and singing.
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Post by london777 on May 15, 2018 3:00:37 GMT
If I understand your idea here, the movie that comes to mind the most for me would be The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957). The OBJECT of the conflict would be "the bridge" itself. For Alec Guinness, the bridge is a symbol of triumph over suffering as well as a lasting symbol of British building skills under extreme conditions. Something that will last as part of the British spirit. For the Allies, the bridge is something that must be destroyed to achieve victory over the Japanese. Yes, great example of confused aims. I think his further objective was to raise the morale of his suffering men by giving them something to concentrate on as a team. The film is a travesty of the novel. But that is OK because the novel is a travesty of real events. With such a good film, who cares, we judge it on its own merits. The great pity is that the William Holden part had to be written in for the American market. It is as if he has wandered in from another film. In fact he is not that different from the smart-aleck wheeler-dealer he played in Stalag 17.
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Post by spiderwort on May 15, 2018 4:21:09 GMT
Great thread, spiderwort, and close to my heart. I posted in another thread that my favorite movies are those where the protagonist has to make a difficult moral choice, which is related to what you are writing about. I will probably need to come back to this thread (again and again). Thanks, London. And do come back as often as you please. To me, these are always the most interesting films. Of your choices, I'm most familiar with ELMER GANTRY and WILD STRAWBERRIES. I love both (especially STRAWBERRIES, one of my most favorite films) and think they are perfect examples of concept of the thread. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on May 16, 2018 7:03:02 GMT
How about AMADEUS? On one hand Salieri hates Mozart for his talent, and yet the whole movie is really about his love for Mozart's talent. In the end the conflict drives him mad.
"Your merciful God. He destroyed His own beloved, rather than let a mediocrity share in the smallest part of His glory. He killed Mozart and kept me alive to torture! 32 years of torture! 32 years of slowly watching myself become extinct."
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Post by bravomailer on May 16, 2018 19:42:10 GMT
Michael says it's just business, but I think it was a little personal too. 
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Post by manfromplanetx on May 16, 2018 21:58:26 GMT
In Samuel Fuller's excellent cold war thriller/noir Pick Up On South Street (1953) the main protagonist is a conflicted character. Skip McCoy (Richard Widmark) is an ambiguous anti-hero, a street smart petty thief who unwittingly becomes a threat to national security. Skip's ambivalence holds the film together, McCoy's world weariness his cynical nature is unpatriotic, he is willing to sell out his country for a price. When picked up at his South Street shack and brought in by the feds, he refuses to get the "kink" out of his mouth and will not cooperate. Famously stating... "Are you waving the flag at me?" "Is there a law now that I gotta listen to lectures?" . The feds try and appeal to his patriotism. "Do you know what treason means?", Skip the jaded anti hero defiantly replies "Who cares?" , patriotism and the flag have little relevance in the back alleys in the underworld of NY city streets...
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on May 16, 2018 23:41:22 GMT
I don't think Michael Corleone is conflicted much. It seems to me he starts out seemingly not wanting to be connected to the family but it changes pretty fast. I don't remember in 1 or 2 that he was showing any conflicts. Fredo betrayed him, and he was heartbroken about it, but the business still came first. His wife betrays him and he doesn't have any remorse over it at all.
The ending with him seeing himself with his father leaving Italy could be a regret, or not--hard to say, but the internal conflict isn't driving the story.
On the other hand, in Donnie Brasco, the central character is torn between loyalties.
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Post by bravomailer on May 17, 2018 0:36:14 GMT
I don't think Michael Corleone is conflicted much. . .The ending with him seeing himself with his father leaving Italy could be a regret, or not--hard to say, but the internal conflict isn't driving the story. I haven't seen THE GODFATHER since it was released, so I can't be sure. But what you're saying seems right to me. Initially Michael wants no part of the family business. He looks forward to marriage with a Protestant girl and a career suitable for a Cornell lad. The attempted killing of his father angers him and makes him want vengeance, which puts him into the family business. But even then he tells himself and his brother that it's not personal, just business. Vito separated business and personal life – with the latter being genuinely warm. Michael was unable to do that.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on May 17, 2018 1:00:07 GMT
I've always admired films in which the ambivalence of the protagonist creates the main conflict in the film. Ambivalence in this case would be defined as a character wanting two things simultaneously - or not being sure what he or she wants most. A great example is On the Waterfront, in which Brando's conflict arises from his love for Edie and his loyalty to his brother and the union. Without this conflict there would be no story to tell. And it's his resolution of that internal conflict that leads to the climax of the film and his inevitable character change. Your thoughts, other examples? Brando didn't feel real loyalty to his brother (who was feeding him the loyalty bullshit) nor Johnny Friendly (he ovbiously felt nothing for the actual union itself). He knew his brother and Friendly had screwed up his life and were just using him. At least that's how I see it.
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